[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

I dislike the bannings of simian spirit guide and mox opal. These decks were more vulnerable to discard and removal. Now I feel the format is too midrange-y.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
I dislike the bannings of simian spirit guide and mox opal. These decks were more vulnerable to discard and removal. Now I feel the format is too midrange-y.
The banning of Simian Spirit Guide is necessary ever since the printing of Shardless Agent in MH2. Do you really want to see someone having access to that card in today's Cascade decks?

And Mox Opal needs to stay banned ever since Urza, Lord High Artificer. That card got Opal and Astrolabe banned so it could stay legal. Busted, busted card, even at 4 mana (get a Blue back from the construct immediately though). With Urza's Saga legal, Mox Opal just is not safe in the slightest way. I'm saying this, even with a Tier 0 deck, Money Pile, in a separate spot of the meta as the rest of the decks.

I would say this.
1. Money Pile


2. Murk
3. Living End or Rhinos, switches depending on the current meta

Everything else.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Amulet, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

My LGS dropped Modern a few weeks ago because attendance had declined over the past months to the point there weren't even 8 players any more while there just to be 20-30. Pioneer took the spot. Modern turning into Horizons block has turned many people off in my area. It is the most heard argument and I agree. It is the same reason I have basically quit playing for the past year. Also they are doing an experiment with non-sanctioned Legacy allowing proxies because not everyone who quit Modern is interested in Pioneer. A lot of people are actually showing up which is great.

In the short run Wizards gained a lot of money from the Horizons sets but in the long run they have killed the format. It is super stale and basically solved. Just not everyone is playing the best (iteration of their) deck because of money. The powerlevel has gone through the roof making it very difficult for new sets to make an impact. Also the cost has literally tripled because you need so many mythic playsets. Again turning people off. Modern has become Legacy in a sort of way.

The Horizons sets totally missed the mark IMO. People play eternal formats because they want to play with the old cards. Now those cards have been pushed completely away by these new cards who are all from the same set. Eternal was the only home for those cards. Legacy and even more Modern have lost their identity. It was about nostalgia. Playing with cards from different era's. Now you just slam 40 horizons cards with 20 land together and you have a tier 1 deck.

What is the future of Modern now? Are we waiting for Horizons 3 for the next soft reset/rotation? Is the player base declining in general or just in my area?

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
My LGS dropped Modern a few weeks ago because attendance had declined over the past months to the point there weren't even 8 players any more while there just to be 20-30. Pioneer took the spot. Modern turning into Horizons block has turned many people off in my area. It is the most heard argument and I agree. It is the same reason I have basically quit playing for the past year. Also they are doing an experiment with non-sanctioned Legacy allowing proxies because not everyone who quit Modern is interested in Pioneer. A lot of people are actually showing up which is great.

In the short run Wizards gained a lot of money from the Horizons sets but in the long run they have killed the format. It is super stale and basically solved. Just not everyone is playing the best (iteration of their) deck because of money. The powerlevel has gone through the roof making it very difficult for new sets to make an impact. Also the cost has literally tripled because you need so many mythic playsets. Again turning people off. Modern has become Legacy in a sort of way.

The Horizons sets totally missed the mark IMO. People play eternal formats because they want to play with the old cards. Now those cards have been pushed completely away by these new cards who are all from the same set. Eternal was the only home for those cards. Legacy and even more Modern have lost their identity. It was about nostalgia. Playing with cards from different era's. Now you just slam 40 horizons cards with 20 land together and you have a tier 1 deck.

What is the future of Modern now? Are we waiting for Horizons 3 for the next soft reset/rotation? Is the player base declining in general or just in my area?
The format being 'solved' I think has less to do with Modern Horizons and more to do with the lack of bans recently of things that probably need it, and possibly WotC being nervous about bans ever since Covid shut things down.

People wanting to play old cards wasn't going to last long term even without Horizons, as plenty of new cards have entered from Standard that have obsoleted old cards, Horizons just sped that process up.

A format for older cards being encouraged should perhaps be a curated one, or something along the lines of old block constructed, except with more than one block, since block constructed was just too small on it's own to be a sustainable format for any particular block, perhaps set up in several different 'year ranges' that are bigger than any Standard, but smaller than Modern/Pioneer.

I think Modern deserves to die though in the long run, and in it's place, we need a curated format that doesn't care about what sets a card is from, so much as if it's balanced in the format and isn't on the reserved list or a soft 'can't be reprinted' list, which encourages diverse archetypes and color situations, but effectively has a super-massive banned list and relies heavily on digital management of the lists of allowed cards and deck-building work to take Modern's place between Pioneer and Legacy as a balance, diverse, turn 4 format that is mostly non-rotating (although the large and aggressive banned list and careful curation would make it pseudo-rotating and prevent the use of a lot of popular cards). Such a format would probably need a new horizons-like set printed as it starts to fill in some gaps created by cards not brought over from modern that would be too powerful for the new format, but something close would be still needed. Digital tools after all make it less necessary to organize things by sets and bans, and possible to instead just create a 'included' list that exists on a website somewhere in a searchable way and in any systems like MTGO or Arena that might include the format.

Modern could remain as an existing format in such a situation, but be treated more distantly like Legacy and Vintage, and also allow cards from the new curated format's 'horizons' equivalent sets (and any similar 'horizons' sets perhaps printed for Pioneer), but they could drop the turn 4 rule and merely rely on bans when certain decks and/or cards and/or archetypes take over too much of the metagame.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

I didn't play modern at all in June and only once in May. In part because of declining attendance and a stale meta. The discord server says only 2 people showed to Modern the last outing. I'm gonna sit out the rest of the year until something changes. Whether that be sweeping bans or a reprint set. I'm sure some of it is attributed to high gas/food prices too. But it's still not a situation I like.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I played modern last night with two of my friends just for fun. First time in a long time. We used proxies just because two of them are just sort of dipping their toes into the format and don't know if they want to spend money on the actual cards. So it was all just casual and for won.
One friend played Mardu Pyromancer (old school hehe, but he's all in on Mardu stuff in pretty much every format) and one played Dredge. I played mono green tron.
My deck didn't want to play lol.... 18 lands and it felt like I had 1 it was brutal and not my finest performance lol, but it was fun to play.

As far as Pioneer being the new modern and modern being legacy 2.. I really like the idea of pioneer and I just kinda... every time I look up cards to buy I think "Why do I want to play a weaker version of what I could play in Modern?", so I never end up buying anything. It's like I really want to play pioneer too, but just... I don't like the "weak modern deck" feel. But at the same time, prices to getting a not bad modern deck is just insane.

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Post by MaritLage » 1 year ago

Well , it·s clear that , whether they want it or not , WotC is staggering towards a rating of Aa [Alive] , with the sets constantly needing to toggle bans and restrictions on and off , and constantly needing to consume new players for their resources in order to feed its own burgeoning production machine . This in comparison to ratings like Fe (Cast-in-Metal) , De (Inert) , or Pu (Mutable) .

Which is great and all , if hooking a procedural process up to a bioelectric grid so you can scream "It·s alive ... It·s ALIVE !!" was the endgame of your Innistrad Double Feature , yet it does seem as if some unknowable je-ne-sais-quoi is different now , doesn·t it? Ka .

tbh i·m curious about Frontier .
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Pioneer gets support now for one reason. Wotc have explicitly made it a thing in terms of organised play. I actually quite like the format, but it is hugely aggro or tempo and 'control' is two blue counter/removal decks, with one combo deck.

Modern has the same block horizons issue as Legacy. Where mh2 is legal, it dominates.
Legacy has entry with non RL decks like d n t that are as cheap as Modern.
It supports combo, prison, aggro, control, tempo in diverse forms such as spellbased combo and a plus b combo. Its expensive cards stay expensive and don't keel over to reprints, which is a two edge sword but nears your money is safe.

Modern suffers from a diverse player base who want different things, and fundamentally lacks definition. It is a good format sometimes but your money is not safe, and it is prone to a top 2/3 decks being significantly better than the next.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I still think that modern is my favourite format in terms of gameplay, especially if you want to build something fun/interesting and not just maximise on power level. Some of the most fun games I've had are with those 3/2-2/3 decks. I really like that. That's basically the most "magic" to me.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I haven't played a competitive modern event in maybe 2 months because I had to take time off for a course for work. I haven't really seen much 4c piles in my meta, which makes me happy because I found playing against that miserable. I've maybe only played 1 or 2 FNM since May though

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Prismatic Ending has all the design mistakes of Green Sun's Zenith when you think about it. It fits nicely in the one drop slot, but still makes a great top deck at any other turn in the game. It makes the deckbuilding too easy.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

It made Path to Exile disappear too hehe

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Prismatic ending is a good card. It even made some people in our uw deck in salvation.. start using raugrin triome to make prismatic ending better in their deck.
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Pitch elementals are cool and I really like them, but they have too many design mistakes. Pitching a card is not enough of a cost, and a mana cost should have been added to them as well, similar to mulldrifter costing 3 to evoke. Flash on solitude is problematic too. Evoke Fury commonly kills 2 or more creatures, which doesn't put you down on card advantage, while simultaneously building tempo because the cost is free.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
Prismatic ending is a good card. It even made some people in our uw deck in salvation.. start using raugrin triome to make prismatic ending better in their deck.
I feel that's a pretty common thing as it's pretty free to do.

I played an RCQ at the Face to Face Toronto store last weekend, played against a different deck in each of 6 rounds, but my buddy played against murktide first three rounds

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

They have certainly improved legacy though. Problem is modern does not have good enough land kill to stop 4c elemental decks being too good. Free stuff is an issue and always will be, but it is also a safety valve. The elementals are not an issue for me. If any deck finds a way of abusing lots of them and not being punished then we need to ask why can't we stop that.
The answer is always modern has powerful threats and answers but weak prison cards and strategies.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Pretty wild Liliana of the Veil is getting reprinted in the new set. One of the most popular modern cards about to make the rounds.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
They have certainly improved legacy though. Problem is modern does not have good enough land kill to stop 4c elemental decks being too good. Free stuff is an issue and always will be, but it is also a safety valve. The elementals are not an issue for me. If any deck finds a way of abusing lots of them and not being punished then we need to ask why can't we stop that.
The answer is always modern has powerful threats and answers but weak prison cards and strategies.
my problem with 4c piles is I don't even know how to begin addressing it. what's your opinion on addressing it? Only thing I can think of is banning Omnath, Locus of Creation or Wrenn and Six

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Liliana reprint is so good to hear. Maybe I could finally get a copy this time.
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Three best cards in 4 color piles are wrenn and six, abundant growth, and yorion. Personally I want to see yorion go (along with all companions). Just a personal preference.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I'd like to see W6 go but I still don't know if its correct to ban that

I played a 42 person RCQ yesterday, finished 17th at 3-3. Beat Esper reanimator, enchantress and creativity. Lost to hammer, jeskai control and burn. Surprised I didn't get a murktide mirror or played against more burn and hammer, as murk, hammer and burn seemed to be a lot of the room

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Tomorrow supposedly there is the biggest Modern tournament of the year in the Netherlands. I used to go every year. Overal attendance was always between 200-300 players. This time I am not bothered to go. None of my friends are going neither. They only have around 40 registrations so far. Modern is in a very weird place where the meta is apparently objectively balanced but the format as a whole is really unenjoyable. So many people jumped ship.

Unlike other era's where you could point your finger at specific cards to blame this time it feels different. Modern is just no longer Modern. It has become Horizons cash grab block. This thread is also completely dead. There is no deck discussion, no innovation, no nothing because there is nothing to talk about. The meta is solved, stale and boring. What is the future of Modern? Wait for Horizons 3 to powercreep the game even more? Having to spend another 600$ to stay competitive because your deck got invalidated? Modern is a rotating format dictated by Horizons sets.

Older players have left and new players are hardly interested in Modern. Between the format being solved and the entry cost gone up by 500$ at least I don't see short term solutions. Yes you can ban W6, Yorion, Ragavan and more but the underlying issues still persist. Would people really come back if those cards got banned or would you just lose the players who spent a ton of money?

People who want to play MTG and have the cards to do so will continu to play Modern because there are no good alternatives. Legacy and Vintage are relics from the past, Pioneer never really took off. Modern is just hanging in there until a good alternative shows up. Until then it is bleeding to death. If Pioneer becomes a good and popular format that would be the nail in the coffin for Modern.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I feel that modern events are still getting a lot of players in my area, although modern events have usually gotten a lot of people in Southern Ontario, Canada. While there have usually been complaints about modern as a format, this time I can agree it's not obvious what a solution would be.

Overall, I'd say people I know tend to be excited there's an actual direction for comp magic in all formats now, even if not perfect

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

I think there are also problems not related to Modern alone:

#1: Wallet fatigue

Lots of people lost a lot of money during covid. In Europe we are looking at 10%+ inflation. Add up the energy crisis and card board rectangles are the last thing you want to spend money on. The people who still have money to spend on MTG have also a lot more options now. Commander got pushed very hard the past years. A lot of different products are released overtime.

#2: Modern has become more expensive

So many decks got invalidated after MH2, not everyone had 500$ to spare to updates their decks or build new ones.

#3: The meta looks intimidating

There is a lot of powercreep. In the old times you had people who would try their homebrew in a tournament, win a few games, have fun and be satisfied. Now you look at any top16 and you know you don't stand a chance. W6, Ragavan, Yorion, Omnath, Fury, Urza's Saga... these are cards that invalidate complete archetypes.

#4 Solved Meta

Murktide has around 20% metashare for months. The only thing that is keeping 4c Yorion decks from a high metashare is money. If they want to open up the meta a bit they should ban W6, Expressive Iteration and Fury. Without W6 Omnath and Yorion become less powerful.

#5 Ragavan

I think this card is very polarizing. It definitely solved an old issue of Modern being 2 passing ships in the night. At the same time it is too unforgiving. Just connecting once is already completely game changing. It is strong at all stages of the game. I think the card is ban worthy though. Maybe they can release a nerfed Ragavan in the future.

6# Modern has been in a rough spot for many years now

Since MH1 we went from Hogaak to an Urza meta, then we got Oko's debacle, then went into a snow meta followed by Companion meta, then came MH2 and things got weird. A lot of players where lost during these transitions. We never had a stable longer period of the meta being fun and balanced. There were always these issues that got addressed too late. I fee; we are in that same spot again where everyone feels some bans are coming but it is just taking way too long.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I think wallet fatigue and the overall cost of the format rising are 2 huge issues I see. I do also hear the powercreep being huge as well, I've heard modern called MH block constructed ecause you're basically forced to play MH cards

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