[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

I personally never want to see an unban. Ever. Not just because I don't want Pod/Twin or whatever, but because it is additional shake up when we get shaken up by an already very fast release schedule. MTGO crowds might enjoy it, but paper play is the most important, because paper costs a lot of money by comparison to MTGO and is the lifeblood of the game, still the number one way of playing. When a deck is banned, or no longer viable, it is a huge financial cost to paper players. If the every changing dynamic of an online format appeals, then Historic and whatever the latest one with reworked cards is available. Modern decks are now extremely expensive, and bans/unbans shake up the format tremendously, in addition to set releases. Bans, are sometimes necessary, and they do not always get them right, but I don't want extra shake up, nor that periodic rise and fall speculation. If I have to have an unban, then it must be something never tried in the format, not something we have had and banned like Blazing Shoal, Probe or whatever.
It is sad when they get the wrong ban, and also sad when we get Golgari Grave troll in/Golgari Grave troll out, etc., but I would rather new cards designed under new names that fixed whatever problem the original cards had. I think everyones' best interests might be to have an equivalent of suspend and banned, so that they can get it right when a new set comes out and wrecks a format, that I don't mind- "banned for 3/6 months" followed by "released" or "gone for good" lets everyone know where they stand, which ultimately is the best for paper players. That means if they themselves are unsure, we can at least be informed and plan accordingly knowing the full risks.

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

I know everyone is talking about how Golgari Grave troll over performed and thus unbans shouldn't happen but I think a lot of people forget we have had several successful unbans in modern over the years.
Sword of the Meek, Bitterblossom, Wild Nacatl, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Ancestral Vision, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, and Bloodbraid Elf have all been unbanned over the years and given only one card that has been unbanned then rebanned makes me think that honestly some of the cards currently banned probably could come off the list. That said im now realizing a lot of this discussion happened outside of this thread but still I think its a perfectly great time to look at unbanning Deathrite Shaman, Blazing Shoal, and maybe even Hypergenesis and Glimpse of Nature or Green Sun's Zenith.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

I can easily get behind, blazing shoal, hypergenesis, glimpse and GSZ. Of that list I think only GSZ will see decent amounts of play. I see fragile glass cannon decks coming out of these cards except for GSZ. I would add bridge from below to the list here as I don't believe it would do much either.

I feel DRS is a different animal all together. I would put it in a higher risk catagory than the others you named and imo it would need serious deliberation. Honestly, ragavan may be a fair-ish comparison here as it is also a must answer 1 drop that makes mana that's also banned in legacy. I think DRS is more powerful actually as it also controls the graveyard, can gain life, doesn't have to attack to drain your opponent or make mana, has 2 toughness and is easier to cast from its hybrid mana cost.
I look at DRS as a really bad omen for ragavan's future in modern. I don't think DRS really has a chance at an unban. It was in so many decks and broke the color pie because it can be a mono black mana dork. It was openly referred to as a one mana planeswalker for years. (It had 4 abilities: make mana, gain 2 life, drain 2 life, and the most rarely used 4th ability which was attack/block. That 2 toughness really made a difference too.) I think it is more likely ragavan follows DRS's path rather than DRS ever getting an unban.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 2 years ago

Glimpse of nature should come off the banned list 100%. The power imbalance between new nonsense and decks people actually like to play should be closed further. Elves players deserve something that helps them contend with fury. Let these MH2 fanirling spikes who want to buy into the best deck get put to the test and lets get modern back to being a format of interesting games. Id have fun with DRS for personal reasons (It was great in Shamans and elves before it was banned, and Faeries needs the best value 1drop back /s) but its an unreasonable card for such little investment. Honestly if some of the cards on the banned list came off Id be okay with lurrus staying (even though that meant Jitte was likely cursed to stay on the list).

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
2 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
2 years ago
I'm not sure exactly how much the ban of Gitaxian Probe impacted infect but people lost a lot of interest in the deck after the probe ban. I remember seeing the deck a lot more after Teferi, Time Raveler came out but not as much anymore. deck still seems explosive but i'M NOT SURE
Remember, it was the combination of the banning of Gitaxian Probe AND Fatal Push being printed (and the new hotness in every deck). Both impacted the Infect deck and I presume that Fatal Push was more damaging to the deck IMO.
tbh I forgot these happened at the same time because I forgot there was a few year period I was playing modern where push wasn't legal. But that'll do it
Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
I know everyone is talking about how Golgari Grave troll over performed and thus unbans shouldn't happen but I think a lot of people forget we have had several successful unbans in modern over the years.
Sword of the Meek, Bitterblossom, Wild Nacatl, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Ancestral Vision, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, and Bloodbraid Elf have all been unbanned over the years and given only one card that has been unbanned then rebanned makes me think that honestly some of the cards currently banned probably could come off the list. That said im now realizing a lot of this discussion happened outside of this thread but still I think its a perfectly great time to look at unbanning Deathrite Shaman, Blazing Shoal, and maybe even Hypergenesis and Glimpse of Nature or Green Sun's Zenith.
most of those became format staples but didn't break the format due to their own power level.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

Imo SotM, bitterblossom, and AV were never staples. They did see minor high level play. BBE was originally banned from jund because it only saw play in jund and they didn't want to hurt other decks but after it's unban it ebs and flows in and out of prominence.

I guess I would put wild nacatl, JTMS and BBE in the sweet spot for seeing a decent amount of play but not being omnipresent or overly dominant. I wouldn't consider them "staples".

No question SFM & Valakut are certainly format stables that have made prominent appearances in multiple tier decks over the years, but I still would not cause them a problem.

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

Motley, Yea they were format staples or even highly played but its still more of a eye opener for me that we have had this many unbans and only 1 had to be rebanned and understandably so given it was allowed out with 3 other now banned cards. (Faithless Looting, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, and Bridge from Below)

That said I think this history does show that cards on the banned list can probably come off and will mostly just fall into some play or be solid players in the meta but only 1 unban has actually caused an issue enough to cause a reban. Thus this is why i think they could be liberal with a few unbans and then see where the dice fall. Espically given that now they don't have a Ban scheduled if something is noticeably a mistake after a month or two of play they can just say, "yea that ain't it" and reban it.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

a few years ago, I made a post asking why Living End is legal while Hypergenesis is banned. Not sure, but someone replied that it's a card more powerful than Living End. Is the hypergenesis combo too hard to stop, so it should stay banned?
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
2 years ago
a few years ago, I made a post asking why Living End is legal while Hypergenesis is banned. Not sure, but someone replied that it's a card more powerful than Living End. Is the hypergenesis combo too hard to stop, so it should stay banned?
I have made similar posts claiming hypergeneses could be unbanned. I think living end is more powerful due to all the card draw from cycling and the back up plan of hard casting your creatures.
Hypergeneses creatures are much bigger and are often off color so the hard cast is much less of sn option. Combine that with less consistency due to drawing fewer cards and I think it's fine. People will certainly be salty when an omniscience, emrakul and a grisselbrand get dropped into play in one turn against thier more fair deck, but I accept board states like that as just the nature of having glass canon decks in your format and we already have several.

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

There is a difference between unban from the initial list, and unban from a previous ban. Surely people see that? In tge latter case a deck gets banned and then allowed again, in the former it does not.


Fwiw hypergenesis won't come off I think, even if safe.. They won't want a good glass cannon deck, and they don't want to add diversity to glass cannons. It is not about 'is it safe' to add another glass cannon deck at 0.25 pc of the meta.
The card is harder to interact with than living end, and they want cards to promote interaction, their version of interaction, the one commander players like. They know eternal and non rotating formats are not commander, but they still take the view that people don't want too much feel bad, and hypergenesis is a feel bad.

Mindtwist is banned in Legacy, obviously totally safe, I mean reanimator can twist an entire hand to 0 on t1, and yet stays banned.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

feel bad cards are still important to consider in formats outside of commander because if people are not enjoying a format, they'll stop playing that format, dropping money spent on that format.

even if Hypergenesis would be a glass cannon deck, it still seems like it would be miserable to play against

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
2 years ago
There is a difference between unban from the initial list, and unban from a previous ban. Surely people see that? In tge latter case a deck gets banned and then allowed again, in the former it does not.


Fwiw hypergenesis won't come off I think, even if safe.. They won't want a good glass cannon deck, and they don't want to add diversity to glass cannons. It is not about 'is it safe' to add another glass cannon deck at 0.25 pc of the meta.
The card is harder to interact with than living end, and they want cards to promote interaction, their version of interaction, the one commander players like. They know eternal and non rotating formats are not commander, but they still take the view that people don't want too much feel bad, and hypergenesis is a feel bad.

Mindtwist is banned in Legacy, obviously totally safe, I mean reanimator can twist an entire hand to 0 on t1, and yet stays banned.
That is all fair. I personally do not feel that way, but is is at least possible and reasonable that WOTC could feel that way. But they have kept unbanning cards over the years in multiple formats and even created the suspended list so it is atleast not a clean cut philosophy.

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

True, it is not clear cut. I think unbans off the initial list are more possible, though I don't expect too many candidates are left. They would have to be SFM level- promoting their vision.
WOTC I can't see thinking too deeply about hypergenesis and its ilk.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I'd have to actually spend time to look at the initial ban list to see if there's anything on it that would be really fine to unban. Some of them were clearly fine to unban and have since proven they were fine to unban, such as Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor . Some of them are a clear no to me, like Umezawa's Jitte and Hypergenesis . I'd imagine some original banlist cards are probably just fine in modern though

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Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

What if they won't unban hypergenesis because they would rather you buy into the new reanimator deck with archon of cruelty, persist, and unmarked grave?

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

Here is the original Ban list of Modern for discussion's sake and the year the followed it.

August 2011 Link
Modern: Becomes a sanctioned paper format from an online format. The initial ban list is: Ancestral Vision, Ancient Den, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Dark Depths, Dread Return, Glimpse of Nature, Golgari Grave-Troll, Great Furnace, Hypergenesis, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Mental Misstep, Seat of the Synod, Sensei's Divining Top, Skullclamp, Stoneforge Mystic, Sword of the Meek, Tree of Tales, Umezawa's Jitte, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, and Vault of Whispers

In Septemebr of 2011 More cards were added:
Blazing Shoal, Cloudpost, Green Sun's Zenith, Ponder, Preordain, and Rite of Flameare banned.

then Finally in December 2011
Punishing Fire and Wild Nacatl are banned.
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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

Ed06288 wrote:
2 years ago
What if they won't unban hypergenesis because they would rather you buy into the new reanimator deck with archon of cruelty, persist, and unmarked grave?
that's a pretty fair assumption to be made. It's probably just a much more fair deck and gets people to buy newer cards
Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
Here is the original Ban list of Modern for discussion's sake and the year the followed it.

August 2011 Link
Modern: Becomes a sanctioned paper format from an online format. The initial ban list is: Ancestral Vision, Ancient Den, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Dark Depths, Dread Return, Glimpse of Nature, Golgari Grave-Troll, Great Furnace, Hypergenesis, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Mental Misstep, Seat of the Synod, Sensei's Divining Top, Skullclamp, Stoneforge Mystic, Sword of the Meek, Tree of Tales, Umezawa's Jitte, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, and Vault of Whispers

In Septemebr of 2011 More cards were added:
Blazing Shoal, Cloudpost, Green Sun's Zenith, Ponder, Preordain, and Rite of Flameare banned.

then Finally in December 2011
Punishing Fire and Wild Nacatl are banned.
sorry if I missed the discussion but I'd say Punishing Fire would be pretty fine. Super grindy combo. I mean it's repeated removal but takes a lot of time

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

if people buy newer cards, packs will be sold. It's better for the game.

first time I heard of this new reanimator deck. Can someone give a link to a list?
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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
2 years ago
sorry if I missed the discussion but I'd say Punishing Fire would be pretty fine. Super grindy combo. I mean it's repeated removal but takes a lot of time
Im also with you on this. I think Punishing Fire and Deathrite Shaman easily could come off the list if Ragavan and Lurrus stay unbanned. (they are also two of my favorite cards so I am very biased there)
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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
2 years ago
if people buy newer cards, packs will be sold. It's better for the game.

first time I heard of this new reanimator deck. Can someone give a link to a list?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... ator#paper

I feel the deck is solid. Nothing broken/absurdly powerful but also underexplored at the same time.
Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
2 years ago
sorry if I missed the discussion but I'd say Punishing Fire would be pretty fine. Super grindy combo. I mean it's repeated removal but takes a lot of time
Im also with you on this. I think Punishing Fire and Deathrite Shaman easily could come off the list if Ragavan and Lurrus stay unbanned. (they are also two of my favorite cards so I am very biased there)
at first I thought drs was pretty powerful and should stay on the ban list but now I'm coming around. I don' think it'll do anything broken

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

new reanimator looks promising indeed. And looking at the list.. surprised to see that Solitude is a 50 dollar card now.
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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

Solitude was pushing $100 Canadian for a while I believe.

There's about 2 players in my local area who play the reanimator deck. Archon of Cruelty seems like a really good card, I just don't know if the deck never really picked up because of the shell overall or if it's just not being played as much as it should

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

I mean I'm not surprised that reanimator deck is doing solid. 80% of the cards are from MH2 or printed since Eldraine which tends to be a sign now a days that the deck will function like an all star.
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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I really like how Unmarked Grave and Persist won't let you get legendary creatures, I feel it forces interesting deck building choices rather than just going for creatures like Griselbrand , which ended up happening with the legacy equivalent

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
2 years ago
Solitude was pushing $100 Canadian for a while I believe.

There's about 2 players in my local area who play the reanimator deck. Archon of Cruelty seems like a really good card, I just don't know if the deck never really picked up because of the shell overall or if it's just not being played as much as it should
It uses a card to get Archon of Cruelty into the graveyard and another to get it out. Three cards for a creature that can be removed by a fairly large number of two-CMC cards. It's not the greatest plan, but it does work sometimes and some people think it's fun. The number of moving parts appeals to some people.

I've lost badly to it with my pathetic BW Zombies - which runs very little main-deck interaction - in a casual game and I didn't feel like side-boarding, so I don't know how that match would have ended. I played against it at FNM with my ancient GW Hatebears and ROFL-stomped it. Admittedly, it's the only match ever that I hit Leonin Arbiter and Ghost Quarter on turn two in both games. :P The first game I even s'coozed his Archon for good measure.

This is obviously a tiny sample of data and my analysis of things is perhaps untrustworthy so take it for what it's worth.

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