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Rumpy5897
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

And we're good on the promise. Thank you, good night.
 
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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

OK, the Mardu pair is the worst one....

Well, Silvar isn't a horrible card tbh, its a copy of Falkenrath Aristocrat tough
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
None of the partners look interesting to me at all; the jeskai one is hamfisted curiosity combo pandering, and the rest are regression to normal stats that make for pretty poor commanders.

It's pretty typical wotc really, find a formula that everyone loves cos it's pushed then make it cost more mana and have worse abilities next time you do it and say hey look we gave you more of what you asked for.
How do you curiosity combo with the jeskai partners? I mean you could draw extra cards when you wheel with curiosity on the rider, but there's no infinites I can see.

But more importantly...

I really, really hate it when people get mad at wotc for printing reasonably powered commanders.

If you think it sucks, don't buy it. You won't miss it if it's not good.

If wotc were money-grubbing monsters, they'd print the most overpowered miserable cancer they could imagine because that's what people would buy. Because most players don't care about the long-term health of the format, or fun, or flavour, they just want to win.

When wotc steps down in power, which it seems like they largely have for this release, that's them intentionally giving up money in order to benefit the long-term health of the format by giving us more fun, interesting commanders and fewer "kill it right now or you lose" cancer commanders like atraxa, golos, 1st sliver, animar, najeela, gitfrog, etc.

You don't have to play it or even like it, but getting mad at wotc for scaling back is just...so infuriating. It's like people want the format to get worse. It would take zero effort for wotc to make a commander product that would fly off shelves and ruin the format. Thank Christ there are people at wotc who actually care about balance.
RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
OK, the Mardu pair is the worst one....

Well, Silvar isn't a horrible card tbh, its a copy of Falkenrath Aristocrat tough
lol ok admittedly the mardu one looks pretty terrible at first blush. Strangely overcosted and narrow. Oh well.

I'm not mad at wotc about it though.
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 1 year ago

IDK IMO part of the power and ...point of parter with is to play them together. I don't mind one parter being lackluster if it combs well with the other parter.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Btw, those weird-looking cards like Death Trick are on-site mockup renders until English cards go live. You can tell by the N where the holostamp would be and other Nexus mentions. We always make sure to link the sources of the previews, and create the mockups as placeholder measures.

Also, I was hyped about Xyris for like 20 seconds before realising it's just the most recent flavour of wheels.dec. Bummer :P
 
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
None of the partners look interesting to me at all; the jeskai one is hamfisted curiosity combo pandering, and the rest are regression to normal stats that make for pretty poor commanders.

It's pretty typical wotc really, find a formula that everyone loves cos it's pushed then make it cost more mana and have worse abilities next time you do it and say hey look we gave you more of what you asked for.
How do you curiosity combo with the jeskai partners? I mean you could draw extra cards when you wheel with curiosity on the rider, but there's no infinites I can see.
At cleanup step if you have 8 cards you kill the table with brallin+curiosity; discard, shoot everyone for 1, draw a card.
DirkGently wrote:
But more importantly...

I really, really hate it when people get mad at wotc for printing reasonably powered commanders.
I tend to agree with you honestly because the power creep is a real problem. However, I think they could have taken 1 cmc off of all of these guys total cost (e.g. cut 1 cmc from the most overpriced member) and still been on the low end of the power spectrum.

Every one of these pairs has one guy who I'm like "You want me to pay how much for that?"

The shark is 4 mana legend; I would not blink at it at *3* personally. 5 is ridiculous. It's basically strictly worse than ishai, ojutai dragonspeaker who is like the second least played partner.

Honestly if you took 1 mana off each card that is cmc 4 or greater in these pairs they would still be pretty bad.

I don't get mad about reasonably powered, I get mad about grossly underpowered especially in a commander precon.
Last edited by pokken 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

The plain fetcher looks balance, i don't think it will be an auto include into every deck and that's a plus for me

The last two tricolor commander are weirdly both token-focused
Akim is... weird. Weird token in jeskai. The token spawning ability feels very weak. The last ability can be crazy, but requires huge tokens and not 1/1 (hello divine visitation)
Xyris is really cool! Temur tokens and also card draw! You can get a lot of token with a single prosperity. Also they are snakes, so you can put in kamigawa tribal lords like Seshiro, Shisato and maybe Sosuke

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

again I'm in the minority I guess but I think the mardu pair is the only one that's even the least bit appealing. Trynn should have cost 2W though.

An open sac outlet in the command zone is a really powerful effect (that's unprecedented afaik?). I think there's probably a lot of design space there with all the repeated creature recursion and such you can do in those colors. Probably a fun aggro deck there with stuff like silvar and falkenrath aristocrat and yahenni, undying partisan of guys that sac stuff to be indestructible, some board wipes, and a bunch of recursion.

Being able to do like rally the ancestors + zulaport cutthroat horsecrap with your commander is pretty cool.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
At cleanup step if you have 8 cards you kill the table with brallin+curiosity; discard, shoot everyone for 1, draw a card.
Ah, right, I'm dumb. I even kind of thought for 1/2 a second about max hand size and then just ignored it.
I tend to agree with you honestly because the power creep is a real problem. However, I think they could have taken 1 cmc off of all of these guys total cost (e.g. cut 1 cmc from the most overpriced member) and still been on the low end of the power spectrum.

Every one of these pairs has one guy who I'm like "You want me to pay how much for that?"

The shark is 4 mana legend; I would not blink at it at *3* personally. 5 is ridiculous. It's basically strictly worse than ishai, ojutai dragonspeaker who is like the second least played partner.

Honestly if you took 1 mana off each card that is cmc 4 or greater in these pairs they would still be pretty bad.
I think they're mostly fine tbh, but I like my commanders to be pretty fair. Funny enough I think I'd be more likely to shave the mana off the cheaper partner for the temur and the sultai pair, since the bigger one is the more likely to scale quickly.

Ishai might be the least popular but he's still plenty strong imo. 2016 just had a lot of even dumber stuff (which was mostly fine tbh). The shark is a 3/3 flyer with pretty quick scaling ability. In a standard set he'd cost absolutely bare minimum of 4, ignoring the partner. Considering in commander you've got constant access to him and tons of wheels in those colors, 5 seems pretty reasonable. 4 probably would have been ok though then it clashes with the rider on 4.

I think the other part of it is wizards realizing that having 2 commanders makes tax less relevant, so the initial costs need to be a bit higher to compensate.

The mardu one...well, it's late and I'm tired, so maybe I'm missing something, but it looks incredibly bad. You don't even get a starter human so you need to make an attack first without protection. I guess if you're playing a bunch of other humans it's kiiiind of ok? But yeah I could see cutting both of those guys by a mana tbh.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I don't get mad about reasonably powered, I get mad about grossly underpowered especially in a commander precon.
I think it would be a stretch to call any of these grossly underpowered. Maaaybe the mardu pair.

And I still think it's ridiculous to get mad about anything being underpowered. If you don't think it's good, don't buy it. Pretty simple. What makes me mad is when wotc is out printing theme-booster exclusives that are must-haves for my decks, or BaB promos that become standard staples. That's obviously pushing things to force us to spend money. If WotC wants to print low-powered stuff that isn't worth buying, then they can go nuts, doesn't bother me.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

The mardu one...well, it's late and I'm tired, so maybe I'm missing something, but it looks incredibly bad. You don't even get a starter human so you need to make an attack first without protection. I guess if you're playing a bunch of other humans it's kiiiind of ok? But yeah I could see cutting both of those guys by a mana tbh.
So the dude brings a human token and then you have that and him to sac...but my presumption is you're playing a bunch of humans, and probably ways to reanimate them en masse. You're probly doin stuff like thraben doomsayer and bastion of remembrance and maybe even elspeth, sun's nemesis. It's probably a bad deck.

Maybe harmonious archon and increasing devotion. and hanweir garrison.

there's tonnnns of ways to make human tokens and tons of good humans. so you make'em, you bash people, they sweeper you sac your dudes to keep your indestructible guys and drain them all with zulaport cutthroat then you rally the ancestors and sac'em again and everyone's dead.

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I don't get mad about reasonably powered, I get mad about grossly underpowered especially in a commander precon.
I think it would be a stretch to call any of these grossly underpowered. Maaaybe the mardu pair.

And I still think it's ridiculous to get mad about anything being underpowered. If you don't think it's good, don't buy it. Pretty simple. What makes me mad is when wotc is out printing theme-booster exclusives that are must-haves for my decks, or BaB promos that become standard staples. That's obviously pushing things to force us to spend money. If WotC wants to print low-powered stuff that isn't worth buying, then they can go nuts, doesn't bother me.
And I think it's ridiculous for you to waste cycles thinking it's ridiculous for people to get annoyed about stuff. I'm not like pitchfork mad just peeved. We wait and wait for this stuff to get released an then it's disappointing sometimes, why you gotta invalidate my disappointment?

:shrug:

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
The mardu one...well, it's late and I'm tired, so maybe I'm missing something, but it looks incredibly bad. You don't even get a starter human so you need to make an attack first without protection. I guess if you're playing a bunch of other humans it's kiiiind of ok? But yeah I could see cutting both of those guys by a mana tbh.
I believe the intent is that's where the curving aspect comes into play. Given that Trynn can come down a turn earlier than Silvar, you presumably can get at least one attack off with your earlier creatures or Trynn herself before Silvar is ready to attack. Plus, in a pinch, you can always sac Trynn herself. While you probably don't want to, your opponent's probably don't want to lose two creatures to blocking an indestructible Silvar, so the threat of activation can probably enable you to get an attack off unhindered.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
An open sac outlet in the command zone is a really powerful effect (that's unprecedented afaik?)
[...] yahenni, undying partisan
My first though was that Yawgmoth is, but you already provided another example in your post :)

I agree with the idea that most partners so far haven't really stood out and, for me, I don't really like the Mardu pair either. Mostly because of the "sac a human" clause. If it was unconditional I might like it more but 5 mana is still a lot.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
And I think it's ridiculous for you to waste cycles thinking it's ridiculous for people to get annoyed about stuff. I'm not like pitchfork mad just peeved. We wait and wait for this stuff to get released an then it's disappointing sometimes, why you gotta invalidate my disappointment?

:shrug:
Personally when I'm waiting for commander precon season, it's less like waiting for Christmas and more like waiting to see if the bomb is going to go off.

Yes, I'm happy to have new cool cards, but I'm way more concerned that they're going to print something cancerous that I'm going to have to play against constantly for the next year. To have a set where (thus far) nothing makes me go "uh oh, that's gonna be miserable" is so relaxing.

I'll happily accept some underwhelming cards I won't play if it means we don't get any bombs going off.
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
I believe the intent is that's where the curving aspect comes into play. Given that Trynn can come down a turn earlier than Silvar, you presumably can get at least one attack off with your earlier creatures or Trynn herself before Silvar is ready to attack. Plus, in a pinch, you can always sac Trynn herself. While you probably don't want to, your opponent's probably don't want to lose two creatures to blocking an indestructible Silvar, so the threat of activation can probably enable you to get an attack off unhindered.
I get how you'd use it, it just looks pretty underwhelming. If you're not sacking the human you're only crunching in for 4 with a 5-drop, ick.

I guess if you're generating a bunch of other tokens you can scale it up fairly quickly but you're paying 9 for a pretty slow threat otherwise, and indestructible isn't that reliable in this format, especially with all the exile black is getting now in addition to white, and blue ofc has bounce.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, I'm happy to have new cool cards, but I'm way more concerned that they're going to print something cancerous that I'm going to have to play against constantly for the next year. To have a set where (thus far) nothing makes me go "uh oh, that's gonna be miserable" is so relaxing.
Well said.

Re: the Jeskai partners: I won't be indulging the curiosity combos that have given Niv-Mizzet fans a bad name for years now, but I've got to say that I'm REALLY excited about these partners. My perspective on wheels has always been that they are great fun when they only target you, but absolutely miserable when they are a global effect. No one likes being *forced* to pitch their hand. The point is, you can build a wheel deck that isn't an autopilot groan fest where no one gets to keep their hands.

I am ALL about Forgotten Creation + Rielle, the Everwise, or Shabraz, the Skyshark + Mindmoil/Arjun, the Shifting Flame, or Brallin, Skyshark Rider + Chance, or Vanish into Memory + Niv-Mizzet, Parun/Psychosis Crawler. It's like a smorgasbord of a bunch of my favorite Jeskai cards that are all made better with Brallin, Shabraz, and Rielle.

EDIT: @cryogen @Airi @Feyd_Ruin It looks the Nexus database has Brallin listed as "Skyshark RAider" instead of "Rider" as it should be. Who is the best person to notify when I catch something like that?
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

So, what are people's thoughts on Xyris, the Writhing Storm?

Temur has consistently been a color combination I just can't find the right general/build for. Riku wasn't as fun as I thought it would be, I don't like Animar, I would rather not go with Partners (and couldn't really find a good combo anyway) and Wanderer is just Goodstuff.

This one finally seems like a Temur general that I would actually want to build around. Goblin Bombardment, Impact Tremors, Purphoros, etc. all seem pretty good to do a lot with the tokens. I would likely even go light on the wheels and try to control things more with my general, though I would have some to give me an army out of nowhere.

I would probably even go with Narset :) I know it turns off the token production but just seems like a really good way to break the symmetry of the effect.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

"Image"

And as for the cancerous musings, doesn't Drannith Magistrate strike you as such, Dirk? The card's giving off heavy "something will happen" vibes, either casting the commander will get altered in the rules or this will get itself banned. Saying it dies to removal is meaningless, so does Prophet of Kruphix. Having the power to lock the rest of the table off their commanders on a two drop seems pretty good. Maybe I'm just overreacting though.
 
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

The Mardu pair just seem to tell an interesting story; I want to know what kind of person Trynn is, and why she keeps Silvar around.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
An open sac outlet in the command zone is a really powerful effect (that's unprecedented afaik?)
[...] yahenni, undying partisan
My first though was that Yawgmoth is, but you already provided another example in your post :)

I agree with the idea that most partners so far haven't really stood out and, for me, I don't really like the Mardu pair either. Mostly because of the "sac a human" clause. If it was unconditional I might like it more but 5 mana is still a lot.
Yawg really isn't open, since he costs life for each one - although it's very good. I think I shorthanded it but I meant more that having access to a reasonable number of colors :P

I don't think there is a multicolored open sac outlet of any sort in the cz.

I think it really shoulda been 4 mana for the dude. I mean, falkenrath aristocrat exists right, and flying and haste > menace.

I think had it been templated like Falkenrath with the sac a creature get a counter if it's human, mighta been more workable. but still lots of great humans in WBR.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
So, what are people's thoughts on Xyris, the Writhing Storm?

Temur has consistently been a color combination I just can't find the right general/build for. Riku wasn't as fun as I thought it would be, I don't like Animar, I would rather not go with Partners (and couldn't really find a good combo anyway) and Wanderer is just Goodstuff.

This one finally seems like a Temur general that I would actually want to build around. Goblin Bombardment, Impact Tremors, Purphoros, etc. all seem pretty good to do a lot with the tokens. I would likely even go light on the wheels and try to control things more with my general, though I would have some to give me an army out of nowhere.

I would probably even go with Narset :) I know it turns off the token production but just seems like a really good way to break the symmetry of the effect.

I think it looks pretty fun honestly but I don't usually like the purphoros stuff. I think it'd be more fun to just say, murder everyone with the tokens and tap them for mana while you wait. so earthcraft and cryptolith rite and so on.

I'm not sure how the best way is to make sure you get tokens without making the game go too fast because of drawing all the cards. Maybe anvil of bogardan type stuff if there are enough of them? Or burning inquiry effects?

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

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Post by Airi » 1 year ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT: @cryogen @Airi @Feyd_Ruin It looks the Nexus database has Brallin listed as "Skyshark RAider" instead of "Rider" as it should be. Who is the best person to notify when I catch something like that?
It's been fixed! Any one of us works. ^.^
Try to tone down the negativity a bit folks. It's fine to not like the direction of the set, or certain cards or mechanics, but try not to go after others for enjoying them.
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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

@pokken
Regarding Silvar: That's fair. It does open up other colors but I agree entirely on the mana cost. 5 mana is just too much for this effect. Especially considering Yahenni does the same at 3 mana. Adding 1 extra mana for the Menace would seem reasonable.

To be honest, this is usually my issue with "Partner With": they are costed with the expectation you use them together which means they typically err on the side of caution. Which makes running them alone kind of underwhelming. Even together might not be as good as you want.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
So, what are people's thoughts on Xyris, the Writhing Storm?

Temur has consistently been a color combination I just can't find the right general/build for. Riku wasn't as fun as I thought it would be, I don't like Animar, I would rather not go with Partners (and couldn't really find a good combo anyway) and Wanderer is just Goodstuff.

This one finally seems like a Temur general that I would actually want to build around. Goblin Bombardment, Impact Tremors, Purphoros, etc. all seem pretty good to do a lot with the tokens. I would likely even go light on the wheels and try to control things more with my general, though I would have some to give me an army out of nowhere.

I would probably even go with Narset :) I know it turns off the token production but just seems like a really good way to break the symmetry of the effect.

I think it looks pretty fun honestly but I don't usually like the purphoros stuff. I think it'd be more fun to just say, murder everyone with the tokens and tap them for mana while you wait. so earthcraft and cryptolith rite and so on.

I'm not sure how the best way is to make sure you get tokens without making the game go too fast because of drawing all the cards. Maybe anvil of bogardan type stuff if there are enough of them? Or burning inquiry effects?
I know enough people don't really like Purphoros so I can see wanting to stay away from that. Honestly, I really just wanted to play Goblin Bombardment :) I had it in a Hazezon deck years ago and can never find the right deck to put it in.

I do like the idea of making it sort of a big mana deck with Earthcraft and Rite. I was already thinking of whether I wanted to just merge Xenagos into this, even though I have yet to play game with it, and maybe that is what I end up doing. I can use the tokens for big mana and then end the game with Craterhoof or even End-Raze Forerunners.

I do agree with the idea that I probably need a way to ensure I actually get tokens. I doubt I can connect all the time. Maybe this is even a deck for Prosperity :) In reality, I think I just increase the wheels as needed. I don't want to do too heavy on them, but I would rather have those over some of the group hug cards since the Wheels at least mess with their hands.

I will have to look at that a little closer and maybe do more with that. I might try to go a little heavier on the token theme as well.
Last edited by WizardMN 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago

And as for the cancerous musings, doesn't Drannith Magistrate strike you as such, Dirk? The card's giving off heavy "something will happen" vibes, either casting the commander will get altered in the rules or this will get itself banned. Saying it dies to removal is meaningless, so does Prophet of Kruphix. Having the power to lock the rest of the table off their commanders on a two drop seems pretty good. Maybe I'm just overreacting though.
Keep in mind that it was printed in a standard set. There are plenty of applications for the magistrate outside of EDH (eg Escape). It seems to be just another 2cmc hate bear to me. Its impact doesn't even as approach other creature lock-pieces ala Magus of the Moon.

You cannot compare it to Prophet of Kruphix because Drannith Magistrate generates absolutely no advantage on its own.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

The set of printing is irrelevant from the perspective of EDH ugliness. That said, the Magus of the Moon comparison is quite apt.
 
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Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

I actually like the partners a lot here. They're all at least somewhat exploring new-ish territory for each wedge, and flavorwise I think they're pretty cool. Not the most powerful thing any of them, but I'll probably be fine if we don't get another case of something so universally powerful I'd be seeing it all the time (we all know which culprits those are). I'm glad wedges are getting new options in general.

There's also something to be said about having partners that aren't kill on sight because they all point towards gathering power over time instead of 'don't let me untap with these'.

Silvar and Trynn I am leaning towards mayhap building, do a bit of a messy midrange/aristocrats type thing with some focus on the handful things that want you to sac a Human.
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