Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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gilrad
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Post by gilrad » 1 year ago

NA when played on the risky "on-curve and hope you can untap with it" plan isn't all that different from other mana doublers - it's still kill on sight, there's still a lot of cards that can end games or catapult you to an untenable winning position if you get to untap with it, and there's still the possibility that you just end up drawing out a planar cleansing effect because all you had in your hand was board development cards. There's not a whole lot of functional difference between 15 mana and 30 mana per turn once you've managed to get one round without losing the doubler.

Where NA is going to forge new ground is making the more conservative "play a doubler and have mana up to affect/react to the board" strategy much more flexible, where it was usually a late-game play with the other non-mono doublers. Some comparisons:

Mirari's Wake as a...
6-drop: 2 mana before you untap.
7-drop: 4 mana before you untap.
8-drop: 6 mana before you untap.
9-drop: 8 mana before you untap.
10-drop: 10 mana before you untap.

Zendikar Resurgent as a...
8-drop: 2 mana
9-drop: 4 mana
10-drop: 6 mana
11-drop: 8 mana
12-drop: 9 mana
13-drop: 10 mana

In other words, if you want to follow up a doubler with a mid-game play like removal-with-benefits or another kill-on-sight board development permanent, you're going to be doing it around the same time the fatty deck is hard-casting Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and the blink player drops a Deadeye Navigator with plenty of blinking mana to protect it. The blue deck might even decide it's time to play out his consecrated sphinx with multiple counter backup.

This card on the other hand:
8-drop: 3 mana
9-drop 6 mana
10-drop 9 mana
11-drop 12 mana

You can cast it mid-game and have a low-cost reaction play ready, or you can cast it late-game with zero tempo loss. If you cast it with 11+ mana sources it turns into fast mana, allowing you to jump ahead into bigger spells or sequences of spells. This effect gets even more severe if you're not paying full price. Reanimation is a thing, but more importantly, copy, theft, reanimation of other targets all generally cost less that 7 and will greatly exaggerate this effect.
Last edited by gilrad 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

gilrad wrote:
1 year ago
7-drop: 3 mana
Unless I'm missing something, you're off by a mana. This card costs 7 (4GGG). It isn't fast mana until you have 11 (although it plays very nicely with signets and such).

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Post by Drusus » 1 year ago

Thassa's Oracle is neat. I would say its slightly weaker in impact when compared to a plusing Jace, Wielder of Mysteries if you got 2 devotion. As its greater or equal to X for win the game. 2 devotion is likely if people hate you out which means as long as your deck is 0, 1, or 2 cards its a slightly weaker Jace. Laboratory Maniac is going to be the Plan C for when Jace and Oracle fail. The greedy dream is getting a devotion of 11 with Oracle and winning off that, but that is very unlikely to happen. Lab tribal is neat, but I don't think it warrants a ban, yet.

Shadowspear I feel is a must have for many decks. Its really a very strong card even if the commander isn't really about voltron. Also makes cards like Willow Satyr better based on such an activation. As only safety is shroud granters like Lightning Greaves and those fell out of fashion.

Nyxbloom Ancient I feel is going to get run heavily even if its a creature. I look at Kruphix, God of Horizons deck I run with mana doublers already and the possibility of spending that stored up mana for the nyxbloom, then using remaining mana producers that turn for tripled or bigger mana to restock and grow that mana is really hard to ignore.

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Post by gilrad » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
gilrad wrote:
1 year ago
7-drop: 3 mana
Unless I'm missing something, you're off by a mana. This card costs 7 (4GGG). It isn't fast mana until you have 11 (although it plays very nicely with signets and such).
Right you are! I'll revise my post for clarity.

With that in mind starting at 8 mana is stretching it a little bit for a mid-game play unless you have enough ramp to get ahead by two before turn six reliably, though it still scales extremely well starting at 9 mana and up. A single bounceland or signet supercharges the scaling true, but again unless you're focusing on a specific strategy that's not going to be happening reliably.

Though who knows, living the dream with this card might prove so powerful every deck that runs it also makes room for every on-color signet, filterland, and bounceland available and that just becomes the new standard for any green deck.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Life gain is nice if you need to help someone out for some reason. Or Tainted Remedy/False Cure.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
White's always been primary or secondary in Disenchant effects, it's just not an effect we've seen on X spells very often (at all?). Color pie wise, the difference between this and Purify is pretty marginal, and that's clearly a white effect.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
White's always been primary or secondary in Disenchant effects, it's just not an effect we've seen on X spells very often (at all?). Color pie wise, the difference between this and Purify is pretty marginal, and that's clearly a white effect.
There is a big difference between Heliod's Intervention and Purify in that you can have your own artifact / enchantments and not blow them up. Being instant speed is also a big deal because you can put it into draw / go strategies a lot easier.
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
Screw color pie, just give White a bone XD. Its still on color pie tough, DIsenchant was always a thing and having X in its cost shouldn't make any diference just because of By Force exists.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Yeah, my issue with heliod's intervention is mostly that it should be exiling not destroying. That said I am seeing a lot less darksteel forge these days (but a decent amount of darksteel plate).

I think I might try it in my deck that doesn't want to destroy its own enchantments.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
White's always been primary or secondary in Disenchant effects, it's just not an effect we've seen on X spells very often (at all?). Color pie wise, the difference between this and Purify is pretty marginal, and that's clearly a white effect.
There is a big difference between Heliod's Intervention and Purify in that you can have your own artifact / enchantments and not blow them up. Being instant speed is also a big deal because you can put it into draw / go strategies a lot easier.
Hence the specification "color pie wise". The color pie doesn't tend to care as much about power level, it just cares "can you do the effect or not". White can destroy all artifacts and enchantments, white can destroy target artifact or enchantment, therefore white can destroy multiple target artifacts or enchantments.

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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
There is a big difference between Heliod's Intervention and Purify in that you can have your own artifact / enchantments and not blow them up. Being instant speed is also a big deal because you can put it into draw / go strategies a lot easier.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Destroying artifacts/enchantments is primary from white, and secondary elsewhere. White has primary in instant speed removal. White has primary in instant speed mass removal. White has plenty of asymmetric boardwipes. While this specific combination may be new - it's not actually breaking any new ground.

If we want to discuss precisely art/ench destruction, the evolution path is clear:
  • White has always had disenchant.
  • White has had from early on Dust to Dust, which got upgrade to Peace and Quiet, Return to dust, and Crush Contraband, letting you hit multiple targets, thereby breaking things not your own. Righteous Confluence ups it to 3.
  • Allay is repeatable destruction, which while more expensive than 'X' - is functionally similar in 'Pay a certain amount of mana, do a certain amount of damage'
  • White has Cleansing Meditation, which is asymmetric board wipe for enchantments.
  • White has Patrician's Scorn which breaks enchantments at instant speed. Lots of them.
  • White has asymmetrical wraths, like Austere Command and Tragic Arrogance, which lets you choose modes that impact your opponents' boards more than your own.
  • More poignantly, white has Serra's Liturgy, which is destroy X things (activatable at instant speed, though telegraphed and slow to charge), letting you not break your own.
And let's not get into the mess that is Remove Enchantments, which bounces your stuff, but destroys the auras of the opponent attacking you.


===

White also has a whole thing with making mass removal asymmetric by blinking out the entire board in response, such as with Teferi's protection or ghostway (or making things have protection, or indestructible)- or even just bringing it all back a la Faith's Reward, letting white break the symmetry even more. Obviously this typically would require a 2 card set up, but just to add a bit more to the "white gets to do asymmetric stuff at instant speed."

(My biggest question is why green got permanent indestructible with Heroic Intervention while white is limited to only creatures (so far), while green is usually only about protecting creatures (Wrap in Vigor) while white usually protects the whole board.)


===

The more interesting color pie shift is Pharika's Libation. This is now the second enchantment removal they've given black, after Mire in Misery.

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Post by Henlock » 1 year ago

I agree on Heliod's intervention being far from a color pie break. While the basic effect has shifted to green, we get a variant in almost every set. True Love Kiss Expose to Daylight and Crush Contraband are all within standard.


I'm pretty sure I will be using it for its removal capabilities. I don't mind much about the lifegain but I know it can save your skin.

Pharika's Libation is a tremendous color pie break. There:s still to see how it will play out. Some decks will have plenty of enchantments to spare and this will do close to nothing, but getting an answer to lone. powerful enchabtments seems like a huge asset. I'm not really sure what to think about it.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

Return to Nature...has a card ever before been printed in three consecutive sets? Holy cow.
Colossal Dreadmaw I think?

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

gilrad wrote:
1 year ago
With that in mind starting at 8 mana is stretching it a little bit for a mid-game play unless you have enough ramp to get ahead by two before turn six reliably, though it still scales extremely well starting at 9 mana and up. A single bounceland or signet supercharges the scaling true, but again unless you're focusing on a specific strategy that's not going to be happening reliably.

Though who knows, living the dream with this card might prove so powerful every deck that runs it also makes room for every on-color signet, filterland, and bounceland available and that just becomes the new standard for any green deck.
Well, bouncelands really just interact normally with it imo - a bounce land is functionally 2 land drops, and it taps for 6, just like 2 lands. Signets/filters are neat because they're one land drop (or priced as a 1-mana ramp spell in the case of signets) but the generate ALMOST as much mana as a double land (or 2-mana ramp spell).

If you have any bouncelands, you may as well tap them to pay for this thing, but if possible you'd want to save any signets/filters to use after it's in play, is what I'm saying, because they get way better proportionally.
Cyberium wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

Return to Nature...has a card ever before been printed in three consecutive sets? Holy cow.
Colossal Dreadmaw I think?
Nope, it was in ixalan and rivals, but dominaria came before it was reprinted again in M19.

There were a bunch of cards reprinted between ixalan and rivals, but I don't think any of them were also in dominaria - could be wrong.

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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
gilrad wrote:
1 year ago
With that in mind starting at 8 mana is stretching it a little bit for a mid-game play unless you have enough ramp to get ahead by two before turn six reliably, though it still scales extremely well starting at 9 mana and up. A single bounceland or signet supercharges the scaling true, but again unless you're focusing on a specific strategy that's not going to be happening reliably.

Though who knows, living the dream with this card might prove so powerful every deck that runs it also makes room for every on-color signet, filterland, and bounceland available and that just becomes the new standard for any green deck.
Well, bouncelands really just interact normally with it imo - a bounce land is functionally 2 land drops, and it taps for 6, just like 2 lands. Signets/filters are neat because they're one land drop (or priced as a 1-mana ramp spell in the case of signets) but the generate ALMOST as much mana as a double land (or 2-mana ramp spell).

If you have any bouncelands, you may as well tap them to pay for this thing, but if possible you'd want to save any signets/filters to use after it's in play, is what I'm saying, because they get way better proportionally.
Cyberium wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

Return to Nature...has a card ever before been printed in three consecutive sets? Holy cow.
Colossal Dreadmaw I think?
Nope, it was in ixalan and rivals, but dominaria came before it was reprinted again in M19.

There were a bunch of cards reprinted between ixalan and rivals, but I don't think any of them were also in dominaria - could be wrong.
Masters 25 had a reprint of Colossal Dreadmaw and it was at the same time

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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

RtNature always has great flavor text. Original is best.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod's Intervention - Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssssssss. I guess my only question here is like, this doesn't really feel like a white color pie card. Obviously red can't destroy enchantments but outside of that destroy X artifacts feels like its totally a red effect. At the worst its a 3 mana disenchant which still seems kind of fine but the option to destroy like 3 or more specific effects at instant speed seems really good. Return to Dust for instance costs the same mana to get 2 effects and while that exiles the ability to scale up and answer 5 threats seems really useful sometimes. I need to go and find myself like 8 copies of this card lol. I guess my only gripe is that the lifegain part of it feels a bit weak in contrast.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
There is a big difference between Heliod's Intervention and Purify in that you can have your own artifact / enchantments and not blow them up. Being instant speed is also a big deal because you can put it into draw / go strategies a lot easier.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Destroying artifacts/enchantments is primary from white, and secondary elsewhere. White has primary in instant speed removal. White has primary in instant speed mass removal. White has plenty of asymmetric boardwipes. While this specific combination may be new - it's not actually breaking any new ground.
While I agree with the majority of this, I would point out that White is secondary in enchantment/artifact destruction, or at best co-primary with Green. Since the printing of Naturalize, Green has been primary in this effect instead of white, while White gets to be primary in enchantment destruction, but secondary in artifact destruction.

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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

They have mentioned that, yes - that they wanted Green to be primary in both, white to be primary in enchantment destruction, and red in artifact destruction... In practice though... white really hasn't moved much, if at all on it. Green has increased some, but I wouldn't say it's surpassed white in scope, efficiency, or ability.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
They have mentioned that, yes - that they wanted Green to be primary in both, white to be primary in enchantment destruction, and red in artifact destruction... In practice though... white really hasn't moved much, if at all on it. Green has increased some, but I wouldn't say it's surpassed white in scope, efficiency, or ability.
Considering Return to Nature is just Disenchant, but better, and Bane of Progress is Purify, but with a huge beater attached, I'd say there's a strong argument that green has surpassed white in efficiency and ability. You can also see it in the variations on Reclamation Sage, which to the best of my knowledge White has not gotten. The main reason mass destruction hasn't been green more often is because "destroy all artifacts and enchantments" by itself is not an ability they do often, so the easiest way to sneak it into a set is to slap it onto a wrath effect ala Austere Command or Purifying Nova. So while Green is better at the ability by itself (as evidenced by Bane of Progress), the weaker white version is easier to fit into a set as an alternate effect or bonus on a wrath.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

We are expecting like 5 precon commander decks for this set right? Are we expecting them to be staggered post release of the set? I was sort of expecting we might have gotten spoilers for those by the end of the set spoiler if we were getting them at release of the set.

I could be remembering all of this wrong though. I guess maybe I need to look up what we know. I sort of suspect we don't have exact info of what they are doing with it though.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Five decks in April per the website, for Ikoria.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

ahhhhh ok.
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

I'm committed to getting rid of the [now pricey] rat cards I acquired long ago, but dang, those new rat Secret Lair cards look amazing. Jenn Ravenna quickly has become a top MTG artist in my mind, too, along with Seb. I'm also steering away from foils (since mine always bend, no matter how well I take care of them), so another reason to not nab them.
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