Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

I don't think that Thassa's Oracle is going to be banned nor am I talking about trying to move that direction. I am just talking about it from the standpoint that I think its a terrible design on Wizards part. I do think that their decision to just make whatever the hell they feel like and let the RC ban stuff isn't exactly responsible on their end.

When it comes to alternative wincons, I am not against them existing. This just seems to be full on power creep though rather than making something new and innovative. Laboratory Maniac might be less blue intensive but at the cost of one extra mana and being far more fragile. I was actually really pissed off recently when they made Jace, Wielder of Mysteries because it was a far harder permanent type to interact with at instant speed but this just takes the cake being an ETB for for less mana.

I am not saying that alt wincons can't exist. I just think that wizards isn't really taking the iota of responsibility they should with some of their new designs. I am fine with there being some new cards that seem playable in other formats but they continue to go too far in my opinion.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Shadowspear looks pretty good. Even without the Hexproof and Indestrucible removal it is a solid equipment for its cost. One of the cheaper ways to grant trample and is great toolbox equipment for decks with Trinket Mage or Stoneforge Mystic. Looks a little pushed at first glance, but then several cards seem to have too many abilities stapled onto them for the cost. Crazy set so far.

Its like a Glaring Spotlight that is not a dead card if there's nothing around with Hexproof.

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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

I heard you liked Mana Reflection...

so yeah, Nyxbloom Ancient is a thing... guesses on price/staple status?

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
I heard you liked Mana Reflection...

so yeah, Nyxbloom Ancient is a thing... guesses on price/staple status?
It'll be $3-8 while in standard, 10-20 after rotation, up to $30+ in five years if not reprinted and/or the card is important. Triple mana is sweet, but I think 7 drops have to be truly insane these days to make the cut. I'm partial to cEDH these days, so I can't say I'm scared of this like I fear the inevitable birth of Oracle Hulk.

The real question: Is triple mana insane at 7 cmc? Or is double mana usually enough and this is just costly overkill?
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Post by lyonhaert » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
The real question: Is triple mana insane at 7 cmc? Or is double mana usually enough and this is just costly overkill?
It's really not that costly as far as mana, especially in green.

Most mana boosters like Zendikar Resurgent or Regal Behemoth just make extra mana when a land is tapped for mana. If you were to tap a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Serra's Sanctum, Gaea's Cradle, or Cabal Coffers for mana with one of those out you'd get one extra mana. For lands that produce just one mana, it's "double", but it's not really double.

But Nyxbloom Ancient is really a buffed Mana Reflection on a stick. One more g to cast, and triples the mana produced by any of your permanents, which includes stuff like the big mana lands above, Doubling Cube, etc. that make a large amount all at once.
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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 1 year ago

What makes the Ancient insane is the wording. Let's say you have a signet and a talisman on board. The talisman taps for 3, but for 1 mana your signet produces 6. It is also a multiplicative effect for your High Tide style doublers.

I wouldn't sleep on something an early Tasigur could Neoform. Of Eldritch Evolution into either.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
I heard you liked Mana Reflection...

so yeah, Nyxbloom Ancient is a thing... guesses on price/staple status?
It'll be $3-8 while in standard, 10-20 after rotation, up to $30+ in five years if not reprinted and/or the card is important. Triple mana is sweet, but I think 7 drops have to be truly insane these days to make the cut. I'm partial to cEDH these days, so I can't say I'm scared of this like I fear the inevitable birth of Oracle Hulk.

The real question: Is triple mana insane at 7 cmc? Or is double mana usually enough and this is just costly overkill?
I feel like, if you are tapping out and waiting a turn to use it, its probably worse given that its a creature and an enchantment and thus a bit more fragile. The upside though is if you have a few extra mana or if you cheat it in it adds up faster. Most of the time you will end up paying like 6ish mana for a double effect so paying one more when tapping out isn't really that big of a deal but if you had 10 mana you will start really noticing the difference post casting it then. Also, cheating it in via something like Natural Order will also be more noticeable as I can see a lot of ways where you can make mana the turn you get it with that.

There are so many variations of this now that maybe I feel a little jaded but the fact that its on a stick is relevant in some cases.
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

More things - some good, some meh, some silly.

Dream Trawler looks fun. I don't expect it to make waves, but it does make me want to build a sphinx tribal deck.
Elspeth Conquers Death is probably going to show up in Brago - I'm already running Exclusion Ritual, and this looks to generally be better. More importantly, it's a mana cheaper.
Nyxbloom Ancient looks fun. I ran Regal Behemoth in Tasigur briefly, but cut it because that deck is terrible at protecting the monarchy. However, mana doublers (and triplers) that can be reanimated are really good. Even as just a ritual effect, it's still pretty bonkers. And given that I once managed to get four Behemoths on the field at the same time, I'm excited for the nonsense that this will enable.
Shadowspear is a solid toolbox card for decks running equipment or Trinket Mage packages - there aren't many equipment that grant lifelink, and it also functions as a maindeckable hate card (which Glaring Spotlight.... isn't).
Nightmare Shepherd is sweet. Exiling the creatures is a significant downside, but probably necessary to stop trivial Karmic Guide looping. Still, double dipping on critters is an extremely powerful ability.
Thassa's Intervention is reasonable. Pull From Tomorrow is better in terms of raw card advantage, but this can dig really deep, which makes it worth consideration if you plan to be looking for something specific. Doubling as a counterspell gives it a lot of flexibility.

Also:
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
The real question: Is triple mana insane at 7 cmc? Or is double mana usually enough and this is just costly overkill?
There is no overkill. There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

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Post by Treamayne » 1 year ago

Nyxbloom Ancient really does seem like a win-more card; which does not mean I won't try it out in my RS Elemental Tribal since the current 7CMC Green slot is held by Zendikar Resurgent. Though, I expect the "double" mana and card draw will be more important than another beater with true-triple mana.

lyonhaert wrote:
1 year ago
But Nyxbloom Ancient is really a buffed Mana Reflection on a stick.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
... maybe I feel a little jaded but the fact that its on a stick is relevant in some cases.
FYSA, I think the term you are looking for is "... on legs."

e.g. Demonic Hordes is Stone Rain on legs. Also, Rod of Ruin is Tim on a stick.

On legs is a non-creature effect added to a creature. On a stick is a non-artifact effect added to an artifact. IIRC, the above example (Tim/Rod) was the original phrase that popularized "... on a stick" (because of the Rod's artwork and Tim was much better known).
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Treamayne wrote:
1 year ago
FYSA, I think the term you are looking for is "... on legs."

e.g. Demonic Hordes is Stone Rain on legs. Also, Rod of Ruin is Tim on a stick.

On legs is a non-creature effect added to a creature. On a stick is a non-artifact effect added to an artifact. IIRC, the above example (Tim/Rod) was the original phrase that popularized "... on a stick" (because of the Rod's artwork and Tim was much better known).
My dude...they both work.
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/List_of_Magic ... On_a_stick
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Post by vandertroll » 1 year ago

Ooof so many new toys for my Tatyova deck! I don't play cEDH but I think that Flash is the problem, not cards like Oracle.
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Man, I like that black enchantment demon the more that I think about it. It's general insurance for anyone who uses the general as an engine. Obviously WB Daxos gets an additional bonus off it, but that's the first thing that comes to mind as a great user for it.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Weird, I'm a WB Daxos user and I'm not even slightly interested in the demon :P
 
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
quote=TheAmericanSpirit post_id=56620 time=1578523449 user_id=209]
The real question: Is triple mana insane at 7 cmc? Or is double mana usually enough and this is just costly overkill?
There is no overkill. There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".
[/quote]

Hahaha, I mean, if you're X-Spell.dec, I can see how this is insane. But is it Hulk insane? I'm not certain yet.

I dig it as a natural order target though.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
quote=TheAmericanSpirit post_id=56620 time=1578523449 user_id=209]
The real question: Is triple mana insane at 7 cmc? Or is double mana usually enough and this is just costly overkill?
There is no overkill. There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".
Hahaha, I mean, if you're X-Spell.dec, I can see how this is insane. But is it Hulk insane? I'm not certain yet.

I dig it as a natural order target though.
[/quote]

EDIT: wow, that came out weird. I'm unmotivated to fix it now so bear with me.
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Hulk is insane, but a clear combo/tutor card that many casuals want to avoid. This card is like Primeval Titan - not only easy to cheat out, clone, bribery, etc, but it fits into all the timmy decks.

I think this card will be highly played and very centralizing.
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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

Shadowspear is amazing. This is likely replacing Loxodon Warhammer in most decks of mine that run it. In some cases the power boost is important, but mostly I want the abilities, and this is fantastically cheaper to drop and equip, and adds to the Trinket Mage package, though Lox still fits in the trophy mage slot.

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
I feel like, if you are tapping out and waiting a turn to use it, its probably worse given that its a creature and an enchantment and thus a bit more fragile. The upside though is if you have a few extra mana or if you cheat it in it adds up faster. Most of the time you will end up paying like 6ish mana for a double effect so paying one more when tapping out isn't really that big of a deal but if you had 10 mana you will start really noticing the difference post casting it then. Also, cheating it in via something like Natural Order will also be more noticeable as I can see a lot of ways where you can make mana the turn you get it with that.

There are so many variations of this now that maybe I feel a little jaded but the fact that its on a stick is relevant in some cases.
I've tapped out for Zendikar Resurgent before, among other effects. Can it backfire? Sure, but so can any other must-answer threat. That much mana development is a worthy risk.

The thing is that Mana Reflections already gets run, and is already nuts in its various combos. This costs 1 more. That's it.

I also find the fact that it's a creature to be a general positive. Yeah, I like having enchantments so they don't necessarily die to a wrath, and even I build in more creature kill than enchantment kill - but being a creature means that it's easier for green to tutor or cheat. I mean, heck, I would love to run this guy next to a Sneak Attack for a surprise MASSIVE mana swing on a turn. Let alone any reanimation shenanigans you want to pull off.

I don't think he'll be staple status - but it will definitely be a serious contender for any kind of mana shenanigans you want to look at. Considering that Mana Reflection is a $30 card - I think this one bears some serious watching. It's already preselling near 20.

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Post by Ebline » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Treamayne wrote:
1 year ago
FYSA, I think the term you are looking for is "... on legs."

e.g. Demonic Hordes is Stone Rain on legs. Also, Rod of Ruin is Tim on a stick.

On legs is a non-creature effect added to a creature. On a stick is a non-artifact effect added to an artifact. IIRC, the above example (Tim/Rod) was the original phrase that popularized "... on a stick" (because of the Rod's artwork and Tim was much better known).
My dude...they both work.
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/List_of_Magic ... On_a_stick
My dude, your own link tells you the distinctions. Stick typically refers to an object, an artifact, legs refers to a being, a creature. They've both been common use for years and years.

In less tangential matters: it feels weird for most of the cards in a preview I actually feel excited about to be backloaded this close to the end of previews, they usually blow all the splashy stuff right out the gates. Are they getting better at pacing these?

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Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

So... Shadowspear is like everything Polukranos, Unchained wants. I'm sold.

Also Wolfwillow Haven is cute and even somewhat usable.

Shatter the Sky seems interesting. Not sure what's the relevant home for it, though.

Entrancing Lyre seems like a pretty good catch-all answer to problem creatures, presuming you have the mana to spare. Particularly against some decks where killing their creature barely even slows them down or even benefits them.

Dream Trawler is cool and want to put 'er somewhere.

And yes, Nyxbloom Ancient is bonkers and deserves a spot in my 'make ALL the mana' OG Polukranos.
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Really don't like Nyxbloom Ancient . Its stupid and powerfull and just boring. Doesn't add anything new or fun unless another Basalt Monolith combo yawnn.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Hulk is insane, but a clear combo/tutor card that many casuals want to avoid. This card is like Primeval Titan - not only easy to cheat out, clone, bribery, etc, but it fits into all the timmy decks.

I think this card will be highly played and very centralizing.
Caveat upfront: I don't know how long you've been playing edh, so I am operating under the assumption you were playing back when Prime Time was legal (like I was).

This is a false distinction. Prime Time tutors and it combos. Sure, hulk wins the game NOW in its modern incarnations, but don't let nostalgia and/or rosy fallacies of memory dilute how deeply problematic PT was for the format and the sheer redundancy it created in games. Even worse, it required a mere fraction of the deckbuilding commitment that hulk demands. This triple mana thing is nowhere close to Prime Time, but Prime Time is a lot closer to Hulk than you're giving it credit.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Heliod's intervention is a spicy meatball. Could definitely see putting that into Phelddagrif. Me likey.

Shatter the sky looked like a sweet board wipe for Phelddagrif for 3.5 seconds until I remember Phelddagrif won't actually be on the board during a wipe. :crazy:

Return to Nature...has a card ever before been printed in three consecutive sets? Holy cow.

dream trawler is one the nuttiest limited rares I've seen. It's also the sort of thing I like in commander - powerful, difficult to interact with incremental advantage. Not just an insane, win-the-game bomb.

Y'know, like nyxbloom ancient. :fuming:

shadowspear could definitely find its way into Kaervek. Nice.

Thassa's Intervention is....borderline for Phelddagrif. I want to like it, but I can't shake the feeling that it just compared unfavorably to archmage's charm. It's better late-game, but it also can't always counter everything. Hmm.

thassa's oracle is...bleh. No me gusta.

The two titans are both...really, really cool. I want to figure out how to make them. The best I can think of for the most part - barring a few random combo cards like geth's grimoire - is to focus on haste and dredge/cycling/fetches/anything to get cards into your grave.

archon of sun's grace is another nigh-unbeatable limited rare, holy cow.

eat to extinction seems weirdly bad.

Not really feeling the new gods. Maybe my opinion will change, but outside of the multicolor ones they just seem mediocre to me.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Hulk is insane, but a clear combo/tutor card that many casuals want to avoid. This card is like Primeval Titan - not only easy to cheat out, clone, bribery, etc, but it fits into all the timmy decks.

I think this card will be highly played and very centralizing.
Caveat upfront: I don't know how long you've been playing edh, so I am operating under the assumption you were playing back when Prime Time was legal (like I was).

This is a false distinction. Prime Time tutors and it combos. Sure, hulk wins the game NOW in its modern incarnations, but don't let nostalgia and/or rosy fallacies of memory dilute how deeply problematic PT was for the format and the sheer redundancy it created in games. Even worse, it required a mere fraction of the deckbuilding commitment that hulk demands. This triple mana thing is nowhere close to Prime Time, but Prime Time is a lot closer to Hulk than you're giving it credit.
I am not saying that PT was not a card used for combos. I am saying it also fit into all the green decks. You didn't have to do something broken with it, but even if you didn't get Cradle or Dark Depths, it was doing something broken without people even trying to. It warped the games.
And NA will end games faster than PT. I am not saying it is better, just saying that in casual decks they will follow up with their Torment of Hailfire or Zacama and the game will be over.
It is, to me, somewhere between PT, Sylvan Primordial and Paradox Engine. All NA can do is end the game, and people will be aggressively cloning it, tutoring it, etc, in casual metas.

Just my first impression.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Oh god, if you copy it you get 9x the mana.

Gross.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Some more amusing things as spoilers begin to wind down.

Hateful Eidolon is Hopeful Eidolon's evil twin. Seems like a snap include for Ramses Overdark. Could also be an interesting draw engine alongside Rancor and other recursive enchantments. One mana for a repeatable draw engine seems pretty strong, even if it is a bit narrow.

Heliod's Intervention - I'll take five. Looks amazing for any white deck. Return to Dust and Crush Contraband are both format staples, and this looks even better - doesn't exile, but there are very few X-for-1s in mono-white, period.

Shatter the Sky is intriguing. Seems at its best with large indestructible creatures like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Karametra, God of the Harvest. Some tension with the draw though, which makes it hard to say whether or not it is better or worse than Day of Judgment / Wrath of God. Worth consideration, at least.

Nessian Wanderer is another cheap draw engine for enchantress decks, even if it only gets lands.

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