Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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MeowZeDung
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

Well. . . Soul-Guide Lantern is interesting. Being printed at uncommon means that grave hate will be readily accessible to any budget, and the fact that you can exile one specific reanimator threat and then Mind Stone it away if you need to is pretty good.

Dryad of Life's Gift is pesky. A one use Mother of Runes that can also protect an enchantment. Prison decks could probably abuse this with the usual white recursion suspects Reveillark, Sun Titan, and Karmic Guide, not to mention that enchantress generally pairs with green and gets Eternal Witness.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

A death trigger, Two growth spirals, 6 life, and a 6/6 for 1UUUGGG (7) and 5 cards from the bin is a fairly reasonable rate.

It's going to be particularly strong with sac effects, e.g. greater good where you play it for 1UG from the zone, draw 7/discard 3, gain 3, and play a land.

I expect the type of deck that plays him as the commander wants to come loaded for bear with stuff like momentous fall and return of the wildspeaker.

It's also pretty good with erratic portal effects. Being able to growth spiral every turn and have a big fat creature enter the battlefield is something I am sure you could take advantage of.

Aren't there some cards that care about having big fat creatures enter the battlefield too?

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Soul-Guide Lantern looks amazing. I have a lot of decks I avoid playing Relic of Progenitus in because it exiles my own graveyard, so nuking all of my opponents' without touching my own is great. Doesn't exile itself either, so recursion-friendly. And it even eats a targeted card immediately, which seems better than Relic's once-a-turn-of-the-opponent's-choice - I've found it to be too slow to keep even a single player's graveyard under control unless you get it down really early.

The major downside is that the cantrip and mass grave hate are separate abilities, but hard to estimate exactly how much of a cost that will be. I definitely favor it over Scrabbling Claws and Phyrexian Furnace, and over Relic in any deck that cares about its own graveyard. I'm not sure if I favor it over Nihil Spellbomb though, but that only goes in black decks anyway.

As for other stuff....

Titan cycle triggering on ETB and attack is a great callback to the original Titan cycle. I hope we get some in the Naya shard so I can throw them in Samut. Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger looks alright - untargeted discard isn't amazing, but the life loss and the fact that it hits each opponent makes it reasonable. Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath looks quite solid, as ETB creatures that generate card advantage and ramp tend to be. They do require a bit of building around, but I don't think you need to recur them that many times for them to be good.

Kiora Bests the Sea God looks intriguing. I'd really like to run it in Brago, except my build already has way too many 7-drops. I might be able to find one to cut though - an 8/8 hexproof token every turn seems pretty good.

Dryad of Ilysian Grove is intriguing. Explore + Prismatic Omen is an interesting combination. Fun with Keeper of Progenitus and Cabal Coffers, but there are a lot of other interactions too.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

Isn't Soul-Guide Lantern a bit much? I understand the need of hosing certain deck type, most sets in the past have at least the color hosers, but this is a one sided GY removal against only opponents. Why should a colorless card so cheap to cast have this level of effect? I'd think exile one graveyard or all graveyard should be the standard for a 1. Hell, I think a card that cheap should only exile up to five cards, not the entirety.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

Soul-Guide Lantern may shift the format a bit. Ashiok, Dream Render has already made mass graveyard hate more common, but at this new card can go into most decks with minimal cost. I expect we'll be seeing a lot of it at both casual & competitive tables. Plan ahead for your yard getting randomly nuked.

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Post by Toshi » 1 year ago

Soul-Guide Lantern is an absurdly good uncommon!

My meta appears to look a lot different than that of people who argue that graveyard nukes will become a thing with these and others. At least at our tables you already should run these kinds of effects.

Anyhow, i'm especially looking forward to slam this into my Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle deck!

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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

So... I run Scrabbling Claws and Phyrexian Furnace in a number of decks - They're cheap, they keep graveyards clean, they can pinpoint if needed, they can cantrip if needed, and they're easily recurred. They fit well with Sun Titan and Salvaging Station, or even Glissa, the Traitor, among plenty of other things. I've generally hated Relic of progenitus because it's a single shot use, and can't be recurred. (also, it hits me).

The one drawback to Scrabble/Furnace is that if you get them late, it takes quite some effort to trim someone's GY back down to cleanliness again.

Soul-Guide Lantern just straight up ticks all the boxes I need it to. ETB it can pinpoint something - it can cantrip to be recurred, and it just nukes everything. The one advantage that Scrabbling Claws has is self use if someone tries to steal something of yours.

====

Eidolon of Onstruction is pretty cool design. Adding a mana tax to PWs makes the costs even more interesting, though I don't see that may superfriends decks in my group, so I likely wont be playing him.

Likewise Calix, Destiny's Hand is removal in G/W - but not permanently. Never been a fan of those effects as white has better removal than that, but I do like the design - especially since it's 'repeatable.'

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Thassa's Oracle - why did it need to be a lab man win too? It was already a very reasonable card. I REALLY HATE this design. Now, we have an ETB Lab Man who requires you to remove all blue loyalty in response to an ETB or have a stifle. Beyond that, it gives you reach on your Lab Man effect so you don't even need to draw every card, you could potentially have some reach on the last bunch of cards which could be really gross with things like Omniscience.

So, I wouldn't run this card in any deck that it could win in without playing with / against combos. My issue is that not everyone views a Lab Man victory as a combo equivalent. I REALLY dispise these effects and I am really peeved to see this design.
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Thassa's Oracle - why did it need to be a lab man win too? It was already a very reasonable card. I REALLY HATE this design. Now, we have an ETB Lab Man who requires you to remove all blue loyalty in response to an ETB or have a stifle. Beyond that, it gives you reach on your Lab Man effect so you don't even need to draw every card, you could potentially have some reach on the last bunch of cards which could be really gross with things like Omniscience.

So, I wouldn't run this card in any deck that it could win in without playing with / against combos. My issue is that not everyone views a Lab Man victory as a combo equivalent. I REALLY dispise these effects and I am really peeved to see this design.
While I'm generally not a fan of the "games need to end sometime" arguments, how often do you foresee that happening early enough in the game to be a problem without a combo being involved? The win the game text is going to be fluff outside of combo decks in the vast majority of games. The rare times where it's not the game was on the verge of ending anyways. Either someone drew/milled through the vast majority of their deck or they have so much blue devotion that they didn't need to. Both of those seem like perfectly fair uses for this kind of card. I don't think I've ever seen a complaint about someone winning with Lab Man after casting draw spells all game, only when it's involved in some sort of combo win.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

SocorroTortoise wrote:
1 year ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Thassa's Oracle - why did it need to be a lab man win too? It was already a very reasonable card. I REALLY HATE this design. Now, we have an ETB Lab Man who requires you to remove all blue loyalty in response to an ETB or have a stifle. Beyond that, it gives you reach on your Lab Man effect so you don't even need to draw every card, you could potentially have some reach on the last bunch of cards which could be really gross with things like Omniscience.

So, I wouldn't run this card in any deck that it could win in without playing with / against combos. My issue is that not everyone views a Lab Man victory as a combo equivalent. I REALLY dispise these effects and I am really peeved to see this design.
While I'm generally not a fan of the "games need to end sometime" arguments, how often do you foresee that happening early enough in the game to be a problem without a combo being involved? The win the game text is going to be fluff outside of combo decks in the vast majority of games. The rare times where it's not the game was on the verge of ending anyways. Either someone drew/milled through the vast majority of their deck or they have so much blue devotion that they didn't need to. Both of those seem like perfectly fair uses for this kind of card. I don't think I've ever seen a complaint about someone winning with Lab Man after casting draw spells all game, only when it's involved in some sort of combo win.
Surprisingly often. There is a Toothy, Imaginary Friend (no partner, just mono u) deck in my meta that will flicker, counterspell, and defensive bounce wrath a lot. He generally can win by turns 6-10 without going infinite via lab man. Those effects are his only means to win and there is no infinite in there. Its just ramp, flicker, draw, counterspells, and annoying blue nonsense.

There are a few others in my meat as well that primarily use lab man wins. Some of them are gray area combos and some of them are actually just combos. Not everyone in my meta sees combos in the same light.
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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Thassa's Oracle - why did it need to be a lab man win too? It was already a very reasonable card. I REALLY HATE this design. Now, we have an ETB Lab Man who requires you to remove all blue loyalty in response to an ETB or have a stifle. Beyond that, it gives you reach on your Lab Man effect so you don't even need to draw every card, you could potentially have some reach on the last bunch of cards which could be really gross with things like Omniscience.

So, I wouldn't run this card in any deck that it could win in without playing with / against combos. My issue is that not everyone views a Lab Man victory as a combo equivalent. I REALLY dispise these effects and I am really peeved to see this design.
I think trying to remove blue cards for the devotion wouldn't even work either, because most cases people will be putting it into play when they have ZERO cards left in library, and the card say if X is greater than or EQUAL to X. Which means that even if you have zero blue devotion (X=0) you should win the game. That's how I interpret it anyway.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Now, we have an ETB Lab Man who requires you to remove all blue loyalty in response to an ETB or have a stifle.
Removing all blue devotion in response to Thassa's Oracle does nothing if they have an empty library. Zero is equal to zero, so they still win the game when the trigger resolves. You need a Stifle effect, Angel's Grace, a Memory's Journey effect (depending on blue devotion), or forced draw like Blue Sun's Zenith.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Thassa's Oracle - why did it need to be a lab man win too? It was already a very reasonable card. I REALLY HATE this design. Now, we have an ETB Lab Man who requires you to remove all blue loyalty in response to an ETB or have a stifle. Beyond that, it gives you reach on your Lab Man effect so you don't even need to draw every card, you could potentially have some reach on the last bunch of cards which could be really gross with things like Omniscience.

So, I wouldn't run this card in any deck that it could win in without playing with / against combos. My issue is that not everyone views a Lab Man victory as a combo equivalent. I REALLY dispise these effects and I am really peeved to see this design.
Flash Hushwing Gryff in in response to the Oracle being cast.

But yeah, I could easily see that damnable card being banned because of the wincon alone.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

There's no way they ban oracle if flash and lab man have been legal for so long. They don't police CEDH.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I don't really see it as a ban target either, purely because there seem at least a few ways to make sure it doesn't go off. I'm still not a fan of alt win-cons in most cases, so I'm not a fan of this either, but nonetheless I don't think it's going to be all-pervading outside of cEDH or Doomsday style dedicated combos.

I get the complaint though; neat effect ruined by four words - you win the game.
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Post by Kelzam » 1 year ago

People tend to vastly overrate the frequency at which alternate win cons are going to be a problem. I remember how Simic Ascendancy was supposedly going to need pre-emptively banned. Heh.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Kelzam wrote:
1 year ago
People tend to vastly overrate the frequency at which alternate win cons are going to be a problem. I remember how Simic Ascendancy was supposedly going to need pre-emptively banned. Heh.
This one is a little less unjustified a worry. Laboratory Maniac is the easiest alternate win con in the format, it's not a particularly close contest, and I'd argue it's the easiest win condition in EDH period.

This card is similar to Lab Man, and at face value it looks like it's easier to win with, less risky to attempt, and costs 1 mana less, so this new card might take the throne as the easiest win condition in the format. That's not to say it will be a problem, combo decks with Lab Man will just get a minor bump in power and people like me won't play it in the first place because it's super boring, but I don't think there's any chance it's comparable to worrying about Simic Ascendancy. The card will be good, it's just a question of how much people will play it.
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Guys, just win by attacking. Gosh.

I love all the little enchantment creatures. So much fun stuff in this set!
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Sad to hear we're only getting two Titans, and neither of them can be played in Samut. D:

Looking elsewhere...
Furious Rise is yet another impulsive draw enchantment in red.
Enigmatic Incarnation is a repeatable tutor-into-play, which has historically been a pretty broken ability. This does appear to have a lot of limitations though, which makes it more of a build-around / niche card. There are probably still some silly things you can do with it, but there aren't as many options for self-recursion and cost reduction on enchantments.
Eidolon of Obstruction doesn't look particularly powerful, but I'm rarely sad to see more anti-walker tech printed. Outclassed by Suppression Field, but it's also asymmetric and easier to build around.
Dreamshaper Shaman is expensive, but sweet. Random permanents are fun - turn a token into Omniscience! Doesn't shuffle, so Vampiric Tutor works.

Thassa's Oracle is the most attention-grabbing of the cards, given obvious parallels to Laboratory Maniac. Ignoring the alt-win option, it seems fine - Cream of the Crop-ing once is decent filtering, but not exciting. I'd probably favor actual card draw unless I expected to have a lot of devotion.

But when you add in the alt-win mode? Yeah, that's concerning. I don't mind alternate win conditions that much, but the fact that there are now three versions of this effect (including the Jace), the fact that you can build around the strategy even more consistently does sort of bother me. On the other hand, given that the strategy requires going through your entire deck, perhaps a bit of consistency doesn't matter as much though.

However, the thing that really bothers me is that as an ETB trigger, it is extremely hard to stop without countermagic - it's pretty much Torpor Orb or bust. And as 1/3 for 2 with a filtering ability, you're paying an even lower opportunity cost to play it than Laboratory Maniac. There are some arguments for stopping things before a player draws almost their entire deck, but Demonic Consultation is also pretty easy to pull off, and allows for a turn 3 win - turn 2 if you mulligan a card to the bottom. It's certainly not likely to have that nut draw, but in terms of sheer efficiency, a 2-card, 3-mana combo that dodges spot removal is pretty insane.

...in terms of EDH stuff though, Flash-Hulk is a 2-card, 2-mana combo, so maybe won't actually make waves. That gets stopped by spot removal though, and takes up more deck slots. Hmmm...

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
...in terms of EDH stuff though, Flash-Hulk is a 2-card, 2-mana combo, so maybe won't actually make waves. That gets stopped by spot removal though, and takes up more deck slots. Hmmm...
Few points to be aware of:
1) Good flash hulk piles are not stopped by spot removal; they either flash hulk with shuffle hulk tech (which beats any amount of targeted removal by continuing to mill) or abolisher (which also does by abolishing).

To beat shuffle hulk you need 2 pieces of grave hate or two pieces of removal (gotta kill a critter when the emrakul trigger is on the stack and then when they cast memory's journey kill another one).

2) this card has some relevance for hulk since it opens up some new hulk piles that are similarly resilient to removal (since they win when the triggers resolve).

The premier new hulk pile I'm seeing is one that gets spellseeker and oracle, casts consulation for sandwiches and then wins when the trigger resolves no matter what.

Anyway the bottom line is this card is going to make huge waves in CEDH. Outside of CEDH I don't think it does anything

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Post by Kelzam » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Kelzam wrote:
1 year ago
People tend to vastly overrate the frequency at which alternate win cons are going to be a problem. I remember how Simic Ascendancy was supposedly going to need pre-emptively banned. Heh.
This one is a little less unjustified a worry. Laboratory Maniac is the easiest alternate win con in the format, it's not a particularly close contest, and I'd argue it's the easiest win condition in EDH period.

This card is similar to Lab Man, and at face value it looks like it's easier to win with, less risky to attempt, and costs 1 mana less, so this new card might take the throne as the easiest win condition in the format. That's not to say it will be a problem, combo decks with Lab Man will just get a minor bump in power and people like me won't play it in the first place because it's super boring, but I don't think there's any chance it's comparable to worrying about Simic Ascendancy. The card will be good, it's just a question of how much people will play it.
I'm sure all this is a concern in cEDH, but for how the vast majority of the players play the format, even Lab Man really isn't that much of an issue. Most players don't care about the impact that cards make in cEDH, or build in that way.
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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

Mookie wrote:
1 year ago

Thassa's Oracle is the most attention-grabbing of the cards, given obvious parallels to Laboratory Maniac. Ignoring the alt-win option, it seems fine - Cream of the Crop-ing once is decent filtering, but not exciting. I'd probably favor actual card draw unless I expected to have a lot of devotion.

But when you add in the alt-win mode? Yeah, that's concerning. I don't mind alternate win conditions that much, but the fact that there are now three versions of this effect (including the Jace), the fact that you can build around the strategy even more consistently does sort of bother me. On the other hand, given that the strategy requires going through your entire deck, perhaps a bit of consistency doesn't matter as much though.

However, the thing that really bothers me is that as an ETB trigger, it is extremely hard to stop without countermagic - it's pretty much Torpor Orb or bust. And as 1/3 for 2 with a filtering ability, you're paying an even lower opportunity cost to play it than Laboratory Maniac. There are some arguments for stopping things before a player draws almost their entire deck, but Demonic Consultation is also pretty easy to pull off, and allows for a turn 3 win - turn 2 if you mulligan a card to the bottom. It's certainly not likely to have that nut draw, but in terms of sheer efficiency, a 2-card, 3-mana combo that dodges spot removal is pretty insane.

...in terms of EDH stuff though, Flash-Hulk is a 2-card, 2-mana combo, so maybe won't actually make waves. That gets stopped by spot removal though, and takes up more deck slots. Hmmm...
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries was becoming the primary way to win with Demonic Consultation decks, but in cEDH 2 mana difference is a HUGE difference to game plan and winning.

I mean Thassa's Oracle completely reinvents the theoretical Doomsday piles as before you needed a way to get through 6 cards and the mana to do this.
Now you only in theory need to get through maybe 3 of them? This is given that you have at least the 2 blue devotion. So if you get through 3 cards, with 2 left on top of your library you should win.
With needing to get through 3 cards and only needing the 2 blue mana, this makes piles A LOT more easy to construct. The other thing is that you can make the last 2 cards fail-safe cards in the case you get disrupted. Maybe a Jace, Wielder of Mysteries or whatever.
I mean you literally only need Thought Scour and Thassa's Oracle as part of the Doomsday pile to win.

As far as Protean Hulk piles, there was a lot of jumping through hoops to get wins. There was a lot of tech ways to get it to work, but of course it required tons of additional cards to be present in your 99.
This is why there are so many Protean Hulk variations in cEDH.

Now you just need for example Thassa's Oracle + Nomads en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist + 1 cmc.
-OR-
Thassa's Oracle + Sacred Guide + 3 cmc. This is if you have no other white cards.

That fact the piles can be so compact means that the decks are free to play a lot more interaction and protective spells.

Hermit Druid + Dread Return also gets significantly better, as you just don't need anything else except Fatestitcher and Narcomoeba.

So in conclusion Demonic Consultation AND Doomsday AND Protean Hulk decks get an upgrade.
But even though Demonic Consultation would at first glance seem to be the one to get the most benefit, just because you can trim on mana costs, it's actually Protean Hulk that gets the most benefits as you can really shave on tons of basically dead cards for the combo win itself.
Also of note most of the Protean Hulk hulk decks run Demonic Consultation anyway.

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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 1 year ago

Sheldon has already mentioned on Twitter a ban is being discussed re: Thassa's Oracle, be it the card itself or another offender relating to its obvious power as the single hardest wincon to stop in the format.

Here's your Hulk line without the need for White:

Thassa's Oracle + Spellseeker to fetch Demonic Consultation + Blood Pet to get the black mana necessary.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Kelzam wrote:
1 year ago
I'm sure all this is a concern in cEDH, but for how the vast majority of the players play the format, even Lab Man really isn't that much of an issue. Most players don't care about the impact that cards make in cEDH, or build in that way.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, and I don't expect the card to be a problem, but it could be. I certainly would vote against a ban on sight if I had such a vote, but I also can imagine a world where it was popular enough to impact casual games. It doesn't take a dedicated cedh player to win with Laboratory Maniac, but not too many people throw it in a deck because it doesn't do anything otherwise.

This should get more play than that, because it's perfectly fine as a casual power level card. It's a good fit for a blue devotion deck, it's a good fit for a flicker deck, it's a good fit for a self-mill deck, it's a merfolk, it's a wizard, it's a perfectly reasonable 2-drop for people to jam into a whole bunch of themed archetypes. And without some self-decking combo, the "win the game" clause is going to be most rewarding to people drawing lots of cards and playing lots of blue permanents. Someone somewhere is going to play a perfectly reasonable blue deck, slot this in, and find it to be their primary win condition by accident. It's just a question of whether that happens frequently.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

From my uneducated cEDH perspective, banning this new merfolk is gently blowing on the deep gash that is Flash.
 
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