Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

*looks at Tatyova*

Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is a card that deserves a mana value of 5. Losing the non-token clause from your card draw death triggers is *huge*.

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Post by kirkusjones » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
*looks at Tatyova*

Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is a card that deserves a mana value of 5. Losing the non-token clause from your card draw death triggers is *huge*.
Maybe if they were treasure tokens, sure. But you're paying 2 per clue to get some use out of them in UB, which is not super famous for copious amounts of extra mana production. 5 is too much.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

kirkusjones wrote:
1 month ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
*looks at Tatyova*

Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is a card that deserves a mana value of 5. Losing the non-token clause from your card draw death triggers is *huge*.
Maybe if they were treasure tokens, sure. But you're paying 2 per clue to get some use out of them in UB, which is not super famous for copious amounts of extra mana production. 5 is too much.
If you can't find a way to synergize with piles of artifact tokens in blue/black, I would be very surprised. I think you're underestimating just how important removing the token clause is, which is easy to do. But getting *token* creatures to die is incredibly easy at far less than the cost of a card, so adding some mana gating to the ability to convert them to cards is entirely reasonable

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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 1 month ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 month ago
Point by point:
  • You forgot that they're vulnerable to removal, which is another huge con. I think you're downplaying just how much 2 mana per draw is when you already have hoops to jump through to get them in the first place.
  • She also has a stricter color identity than either Haruspex or Reaper. Mysteries is unplayable, but very cool nonetheless (as is the similarly cool Trail of Evidence). Reclamation is an enchantment, immediately draws cards, and has a solid life gain rider as well. It's also in green, which is much better at producing a lot of creatures compared to blue.
  • That's a lot of effort for a little value. 5mv for Eloise + Xmv token producer + Ymv sac outlet for "2: Surveil, draw a card, maybe be able to replace the initial Clue to do it again" is pretty mediocre ROI compared to other 5mv commanders like Yarok, the Desecrated or Chulane, Teller of Tales.
For five mana in Dimir I can get Dralnu, Lich Lord or Phenax, God of Deception or The Scarab God. A clunky value engine makes zero sense at that mana value in this context. I think 3mv would be pushed, but 4mv seems completely safe and where this card should be. You can argue that Yarok, Chulane, and The Scarab God are too pushed, and I would agree, but look at Tatyova, Benthic Druid and tell me this card deserves to be 5mv.

(I admittedly overlooked the March of the Machines synergy in my analysis but like Dirk that's not the kind of play I find enjoyable, so meh.)
  • Everything is vulnerable to removal. I mean, yes, it sucks getting a bunch of clues swept up in a wrath, that is a valid drawback - but that's removal in general.
  • Ulvenwald Mysteries was definitely playable when it came out. Green has gotten much more draw in recent sets, but even so most of those slots cost 4 or more, and are on etb or cast. Mysteries still has a valid place in some lists. I'd say Mysteries was probably the second best initial clue card after Tireless Tracker. Now there's a few other decent additions.
  • As for the more restrictive cost, I feel it comparable as Midnight Reaper->Moldervine Reclamation, Ulvenwald Mysteries->Eloise. Both are 3->5, one pip to two, non-token->everything.
  • Each of these on-death draw cards are going to need a separate enabler. I think that saying that Eloise needing an enabler is not a fair assessment here. That's the design of the card.
I would not necessarily put Dralnu as a less clunky value engine compared to Eloise. Yarrok, and Chulane, and possibly even Tatyova are rather pushed. I'm HAPPY to not see another bonkers do-everything Commander. I hate Chulane with a passion.

I agree that March of the Machines is boring and not my wheelhouse for this build. Even so, there are actually surprising depth to builds for her.

Obviously, Aristocrats, and making and saccing tokens for fun and profit is easily viable. How many lists use Ophiomancer to get and sac a token every turn? Or sacrificing bunches of harpies from Abhorrent Overlord? Heck, this archetype goes all the way back to Breeding Pit.

Another path is to look at self-sacrificing tokens, like food, treasures, etc. This was just on some quick searches for Treasures and basic artifact synergy. I'm sure there are far more. Eloise has some choice synergy cards, but none of them really scream NECESSARY AUTO include, and I don't think it's to the point where you can see Eloise in the Command zone and guess 50% of the deck.

I don't know that I would be the one to build her, but there are definitely builds, and she's fairly open on the theme/destination, while giving a good path to build down. If I were to build her, I'd probably go down the Treasure/Eldrazi token path, with some of the artifact etb stuff, I think.

Legend wrote:
1 month ago
My issue with Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is it's Dimir, not Bant.
This is definitely intriguing, as White and Green have the best investigate cards, with some good to decent treasure support as well, and better token themes. Still, I don't think we needed ANOTHER Bant hey look draw cards Commander.

I think making tokens work in UB is far more interesting than in WG.

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 1 month ago

I just dislike that she's a 4/4 human rogue lol
call me old-fashioned
gimme some sense of her being dangerous if she's not 1/1

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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 1 month ago

Don't recall seeing it mentioned, but in Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor's art, it's a voodoo doll of our favorite unlucky dude from Flame Blitz. lulz
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Post by Cyberium » 1 month ago

Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
1 month ago
Don't recall seeing it mentioned, but in Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor's art, it's a voodoo doll of our favorite unlucky dude from Flame Blitz. lulz
Either an ex or a current, I don't like the sound of either.

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Post by EonAon » 1 month ago

Cyberium wrote:
1 month ago
Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
1 month ago
Don't recall seeing it mentioned, but in Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor's art, it's a voodoo doll of our favorite unlucky dude from Flame Blitz. lulz
Either an ex or a current, I don't like the sound of either.
From a lore article she was cursed herself with immortality somehow by a random Old Walker. The person getting cursed all the time could be that walker since supposedly in lore he is also a walker and alot of misfortune happens to him :)
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Born hundreds of years ago, Lynde is a powerful witch with a knack for curses. In a moment of youthful overconfidence, she attempted to curse a traveling mage who had accidentally bumped into her on a crowded street. The mage, actually a powerful planeswalker passing through town, deflected the curse and sent over a curse of their own.

As time went on, Lynde discovered that she no longer aged. She also discovered that she had developed a host of other problems—bad luck, random flashes of pain, the occasional coughing up of spiders, you name it. It was a curse of curses. After a few years of suffering, Lynde realized that she could use her own magic to temporarily pass her various ailments onto other people. While Lynde is no longer quite as reckless as she was in her youth, she still takes great glee in inflicting her curses on other people. Recently, she has been targeting a particular man that she describes as "the single most annoying person I have ever met in my exceptionally long life."
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2021-09-16

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Post by Gashnaw » 1 month ago

Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
1 month ago
Don't recall seeing it mentioned, but in Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor's art, it's a voodoo doll of our favorite unlucky dude from Flame Blitz. lulz
Is lynde the woman in the Innistrad midnight hunt trailer? If so, i think she is going to be playing a bit more of a role in the story.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

Gashnaw wrote:
1 month ago
Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
1 month ago
Don't recall seeing it mentioned, but in Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor's art, it's a voodoo doll of our favorite unlucky dude from Flame Blitz. lulz
Is lynde the woman in the Innistrad midnight hunt trailer? If so, i think she is going to be playing a bit more of a role in the story.
The woman in the Trailer is a werewolf with a scar over her eye, definitely not Lynde.

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Post by Hawk » 1 week ago

Welp, here we go again:
As to my thoughts:
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Dustin: Paying four mana for a very limited Palladium Myr is TERRIBLE, almost comically so. Only good for partnering with others. Does pay for cracking clues I guess?

Hopper: Boros Clues is an archetype I didn't know I wanted, but he definitely just rewards slamming endless attacks like most boring Boros generals. Meh. Nice chunky statline makes him a good generic Partner to the rest.

Mike: This is more interesting - its a slightly more expensive but much, much stronger Hua Tuo, Honored Physician effect in more colors with more stats! Mike would be an interesting Selesnya Aristocrats Commander in a vacuum (although the mana cost keeps him very fair) - add Partner, though (sorry, "Friends Forever", which explicitly only works with other "Friends Forever" from this set) and we've got some real power cooking. Nice synergy here in that Hopper and Eleven both want, and need, to attack - Mike can pull them back out if that attack goes upside down.

Eleven: Cute that together with Mike you can play 5C to then play the rest of the cast in the '99. She seems strong, similar to Narset, Enlightened Master or Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge but with a bit of a different flavor. Plays well with Hopp (they both like going attacking, Hop slowly draws cards) and with Mike (to pull her out of the grave if she gets killed).

Overall I hate that I like Mike and Eleven, and am grateful that we'll see some more accessible reverse-Godzilla versions of them in New Cappena or Neon Dynasty or Dominaria next year

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 week ago

Hate these.
Decks: Feather, Judith, Varina, Zabaz

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Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 week ago

Hawk wrote:
1 week ago
or Dominaria next year
Would it be far fetched to expect Dustin as possible new rendition of Tawnos for The Brothers War?

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 week ago

Lorn Asbord Schutta wrote:
1 week ago
Hawk wrote:
1 week ago
or Dominaria next year
Would it be far fetched to expect Dustin as possible new rendition of Tawnos for The Brothers War?
Wrong colors, so unlikely.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 week ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 week ago
Lorn Asbord Schutta wrote:
1 week ago
Hawk wrote:
1 week ago
or Dominaria next year
Would it be far fetched to expect Dustin as possible new rendition of Tawnos for The Brothers War?
Wrong colors, so unlikely.
How ironic, here I thought WotC care little about color identity.

At least the new Secret Lairs contain no chase rares.


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Post by Moonlighter » 1 week ago

I had a hard-ish time with the Walking Dead Secret Lair, but here, for whatever reason, I am really disliking this. I don't want to have to tap Gandalf to crew my DeLorean so I can put my Mandalorian from the graveyard to the battlefield in order to summon Benito Mussolini, and the Blue Meanie, and Cowboy Curtis and Jambi the Genie, Bill S. Preston and Theodore Logan, Spock, the Rock, Dock Ock, and Hulk Hogan. And it's just starting to feel a little like that when I see this stuff.

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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 1 week ago

I might build Dustin and Max* I had been thinking about Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis but group hug isn't hugely my thing and I had been wanting to do an clue deck and they let me play all the fun clue cards plus splash red.

*the magic flavor versions.
Lorn Asbord Schutta wrote:
1 week ago
Hawk wrote:
1 week ago
or Dominaria next year
Would it be far fetched to expect Dustin as possible new rendition of Tawnos for The Brothers War?
They gonna be part of the list for Streets of New Capenna with an increased chance to be pulled. They all also be flavor-neutral so not necessarily Capenna flavored (like Mind Flayer is defiantly gonna end up a Theros character).
Cyberium wrote:
1 week ago
How ironic, here I thought WotC care little about color identity.
I think thats just you projecting.
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Myllior
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Post by Myllior » 1 week ago

These cards are eyesores. I didn't care one way or another about Stranger Things previously; now I have the desire to actively avoid it. It's like ads on YouTube or whatever: By and large I don't are what the actual products are, but the moment it starts messing with things (especially something I care about) then it can go the way of the dodo.

Card content: The actual card of Mind Flayer, seperate from its ST version, looks pretty cool. I'd compare it to Stolen Strategy but not being able to cast instants and sorceries is a bit of a bummer. I wonder what interactions change by exiling cards from the bottom of libraries instead of the top?

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 week ago

Myllior wrote:
1 week ago
These cards are eyesores. I didn't care one way or another about Stranger Things previously; now I have the desire to actively avoid it. It's like ads on YouTube or whatever: By and large I don't are what the actual products are, but the moment it starts messing with things (especially something I care about) then it can go the way of the dodo.

Card content: The actual card of Mind Flayer, seperate from its ST version, looks pretty cool. I'd compare it to Stolen Strategy but not being able to cast instants and sorceries is a bit of a bummer. I wonder what interactions change by exiling cards from the bottom of libraries instead of the top?
It doesn't change a ton, other than interactions with fatesealing and scrying, and the handful of cards that put stuff on the bottom of the library. But there's relatively little (none?) of that in mono black, so it's largely flavor text and a reference to the whole "Upside Down" concept in the show.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 week ago

Idgaf about the stranger things stuff, but that grafdigger's cage is sick.
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Post by Venedrex » 1 week ago

I have to say, I'm interested in building the MTGified version of Mike. I've been trying to find a GW commander that doesn't put me to sleep and reanimator seems fun.

As a side note, I will shamelessly admit I do like the show, but I don't like Universes Beyond at all, and this is no exception. I'm just thankful we at least will be getting normal versions of these cards later so they hopefully won't cost an arm and a leg.

P.S. I saw Black Widow the other day and enjoyed it. David Harbour may have been my favorite part about Stranger Things, and he's an actor who feels quite convincing in his roles, IMHO.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 week ago

Venedrex wrote:
1 week ago

P.S. I saw Black Widow the other day and enjoyed it. David Harbour may have been my favorite part about Stranger Things, and he's an actor who feels quite convincing in his roles, IMHO.
Harbour has come a long way from playing low-level goons in stuff like the Equalizer and quantum of solace. He was in all sorts of stuff prior to stranger things and it's weird to see him pop up all over the place now that his face been made so recognizable. I like his acting too, he seems very committed to his art.
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Post by Lifeless » 1 week ago

Mind Flayer is a cool design and the only card in the ST Lair with nice art IMO. Not sure why but the rest of them just look bad to me, beyond my disdain for cross-promotion.

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Post by cheonice » 1 week ago

Moonlighter wrote:
1 week ago
I had a hard-ish time with the Walking Dead Secret Lair, but here, for whatever reason, I am really disliking this. I don't want to have to tap Gandalf to crew my DeLorean so I can put my Mandalorian from the graveyard to the battlefield in order to summon Benito Mussolini, and the Blue Meanie, and Cowboy Curtis and Jambi the Genie, Bill S. Preston and Theodore Logan, Spock, the Rock, Dock Ock, and Hulk Hogan. And it's just starting to feel a little like that when I see this stuff.
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