Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 1 month ago

Infernal Grasp is excellent. I love 2-cost black removal. This will be replacing Victim of Night in some decks.

Join the Dance isn't a great card, but I love the Wicker Man vibe. Innistrad continues to be full of flavor wins, including the delightfully-named Champion of the Perished.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
1 month ago
Not a fan of the updated bundles though. 2 less boosters, and the type of booster being changed to Set, which has less cards and only a marginally higher chance of rare pulling. Should have been one change or the other, not both. Less boosters of the better type, or the same old number of boosters, but a potentially lesser quality booster.
Set boosters are more expensive than draft. It's a significantly higher chance at rares.

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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 1 month ago

well true Triskaidekaphile is less broken but i think there's one factor you guys forgot about that does make this on par with oracle

you did remember Ad Nauseam/Yawgmoth, Thran Physician (enough creatures) like cards and pretty much any draw cards instant speed spells effects exist for too low of cards before you upkeep and can be said for discard when too high with cards like Noose Constrictor/Ghostly Pilferer

and if it's your turn you can just do Last Chance extra turn like cards and then do what i mentioned above to get you hand size to exactly 13

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

CommanderMaster999 wrote:
1 month ago
well true Triskaidekaphile is less broken but i think there's one factor you guys forgot about that does make this on par with oracle

you did remember Ad Nauseam/Yawgmoth, Thran Physician (enough creatures) like cards and pretty much any draw cards instant speed spells effects exist for too low of cards before you upkeep and can be said for discard when too high with cards like Noose Constrictor/Ghostly Pilferer

and if it's your turn you can just do Last Chance extra turn like cards and then do what i mentioned above to get you hand size to exactly 13
All of that is still predicated on you making it back to your upkeep with a 1/3 creature. It's going to be extremely rare that this card wins you a game you couldn't have won with Laboratory Maniac.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
All of that is still predicated on you making it back to your upkeep with a 1/3 creature. It's going to be extremely rare that this card wins you a game you couldn't have won with Laboratory Maniac.
I'm not sure I agree with that, the idea of drawing up to 13 at instant speed after letting this live a turn is a quite a bit more compact wincon than labman + tainted pact + draw spell/effect, and it has a mana sink on it. Sure, thoracle combos are "better" but in more medium-high metas I think you could win with this card pretty easy and it's a much stronger card on its own.

The idea of running this out early and then just happening to win the game on it with Pull from Tomorrow or whatever is not unreasonable.

I especially like it as a card in a Seedborn Muse / Thrasios, Triton Hero / Training Grounds type deck, a lot more than Laboratory Maniac / Thassa's Oracle type combos because it has more applications on its own.

The ability to win with it with all good cards and not needing to play Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact effects makes it a very different engine. The fact that it combos for the win with Seedborn Muse makes it really worth thinking about.

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Post by Hawk » 1 month ago

Wow, it's been sorta crazy to chart the evolution of 2 CMC black removal over the years. Infernal Grasp is the apotheosis of it all. I unironically run Devour in Shadow in monoblack currently because I want to kill a creature unconditionally for 2 CMC. This is strictly better outside of weird synergies like Greven, Predator Captain, and is the de-facto best removal spell in the color now I think - why quibble over what percentage of the format is hit by Go for the Throat versus Doom Blade versus Dismember versus Power Word Kill versus Victim of Night versus Heartless Act when you can just kill it all for negligible life payment?

Consider seems about even stevens with Opt and Thought Scour which puts it behind lots of other cantrips. I suspect it's only gonna be playable in cantrip-mancer spellslinger decks for whom the blind mill of Thought Scour was too shaky.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
All of that is still predicated on you making it back to your upkeep with a 1/3 creature. It's going to be extremely rare that this card wins you a game you couldn't have won with Laboratory Maniac.
I'm not sure I agree with that, the idea of drawing up to 13 at instant speed after letting this live a turn is a quite a bit more compact wincon than labman + tainted pact + draw spell/effect, and it has a mana sink on it. Sure, thoracle combos are "better" but in more medium-high metas I think you could win with this card pretty easy and it's a much stronger card on its own.

The idea of running this out early and then just happening to win the game on it with Pull from Tomorrow or whatever is not unreasonable.

I especially like it as a card in a Seedborn Muse / Thrasios, Triton Hero / Training Grounds type deck, a lot more than Laboratory Maniac / Thassa's Oracle type combos because it has more applications on its own.

The ability to win with it with all good cards and not needing to play Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact effects makes it a very different engine. The fact that it combos for the win with Seedborn Muse makes it really worth thinking about.
My point was less about the specific combos involved, and more "you have such control over the game that you can make it back to your upkeep/draw step with a fragile creature in play that has a 'kill me now' sign on it". Sure, you can refill your hand any number of ways... but that still typically means you passed around the table with this out and a ton of mana available, and nobody killed it.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
My point was less about the specific combos involved, and more "you have such control over the game that you can make it back to your upkeep/draw step with a fragile creature in play that has a 'kill me now' sign on it". Sure, you can refill your hand any number of ways... but that still typically means you passed around the table with this out and a ton of mana available, and nobody killed it.
Eh, this is the kinda card that will sit on the board without being prioritized for removal until you threaten to win with it. It doesn't do enough to warrant killing on its own.

Do you really play games where people can afford to just remove everything as it comes out? That's not really the norm in my experience.

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Post by Mookie » 1 month ago

Hmmmm.... I would say that Triskaidekaphile is definitely a significantly more fair card than Thassa's Oracle. Needing a creature to survive a full turn cycle is a pretty large ask (assuming no flash shenanigans), and allows a wide enough window for most tables to be able to find disruption. That said, unlike something like Epic Struggle or Helix Pinnacle, it's much easier to reach its condition as a surprise due to the availability of Blue Sun's Zenith and other instant-speed draw spells. It's also much easier to slot into a deck - Azure Mage isn't quite playable by itself, but I don't think it takes that much extra for it to be pushed over the edge. I can also see people running it for the Spellbook ability, since that tends to be pretty popular in more casual circles.

Ultimately though, I think it's a pretty balanced card due to the fact that if a player is untapping with thirteen cards in their hand, they're already extremely likely to win, which means Triskaidkaphile's trigger is just a win-more ability. I'll also note that it's not an ability that is trivial to trigger early in the game - most decks aren't going to be drawing a pile of cards off an X spell until much later in the game.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
My point was less about the specific combos involved, and more "you have such control over the game that you can make it back to your upkeep/draw step with a fragile creature in play that has a 'kill me now' sign on it". Sure, you can refill your hand any number of ways... but that still typically means you passed around the table with this out and a ton of mana available, and nobody killed it.
Eh, this is the kinda card that will sit on the board without being prioritized for removal until you threaten to win with it. It doesn't do enough to warrant killing on its own.

Do you really play games where people can afford to just remove everything as it comes out? That's not really the norm in my experience.
My experience is that people can afford to remove everything that has *win the game* printed on it as it comes out. Nobody expects Felidar Sovereign to go around the table a few times without anybody bothering it, I'm not sure why this is expected to play out differently.

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Post by wildfire393 » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
pokken wrote:
1 month ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
My point was less about the specific combos involved, and more "you have such control over the game that you can make it back to your upkeep/draw step with a fragile creature in play that has a 'kill me now' sign on it". Sure, you can refill your hand any number of ways... but that still typically means you passed around the table with this out and a ton of mana available, and nobody killed it.
Eh, this is the kinda card that will sit on the board without being prioritized for removal until you threaten to win with it. It doesn't do enough to warrant killing on its own.

Do you really play games where people can afford to just remove everything as it comes out? That's not really the norm in my experience.
My experience is that people can afford to remove everything that has *win the game* printed on it as it comes out. Nobody expects Felidar Sovereign to go around the table a few times without anybody bothering it, I'm not sure why this is expected to play out differently.
Costing 6 vs costing 2 is a pretty big deal though. It's going to be a lot easier to drop Phile with mana up to counter, or to just sneak them in early and demand an answer before it's really reasonable to do so.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
My experience is that people can afford to remove everything that has *win the game* printed on it as it comes out. Nobody expects Felidar Sovereign to go around the table a few times without anybody bothering it, I'm not sure why this is expected to play out differently.
I would expect no one to try to kill it until the end step before they were going to try to win personally, since doing so preemptively on a 2 mana creature is a great way to just get wrecked :P

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Post by Jemolk » 1 month ago

Hawk wrote:
1 month ago
Wow, it's been sorta crazy to chart the evolution of 2 CMC black removal over the years. Infernal Grasp is the apotheosis of it all. I unironically run Devour in Shadow in monoblack currently because I want to kill a creature unconditionally for 2 CMC. This is strictly better outside of weird synergies like Greven, Predator Captain, and is the de-facto best removal spell in the color now I think - why quibble over what percentage of the format is hit by Go for the Throat versus Doom Blade versus Dismember versus Power Word Kill versus Victim of Night versus Heartless Act when you can just kill it all for negligible life payment?
Not strictly better -- Devour in Shadow prevents regen, and Infernal Grasp doesn't. Still generally probably an improvement, though, especially if you don't have too many people like me in your group who jam all sorts of regenerate nonsense.
Mookie wrote:
1 month ago
Azure Mage isn't quite playable by itself, but I don't think it takes that much extra for it to be pushed over the edge.
Flying and indestructible for 1 extra mana tends to do it in my experience, but then, I do tend to be the slow, grindy control player of my group. I'm not sure I'd actually want Triskaidekaphile in many decks -- paints too big a target on my forehead and on its own, like with alt win cons in general, for too little actual benefit. The Spellbook effect is rather nice for the more casual groups, I'll grant that, but generally in a more casual group you'd actually be better off with something that does a bit less, in my estimation, just because this is too obvious a threat. The main reason it's cool, IMHO, is the callback to Triskaidekaphobia.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

wildfire393 wrote:
1 month ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
pokken wrote:
1 month ago


Eh, this is the kinda card that will sit on the board without being prioritized for removal until you threaten to win with it. It doesn't do enough to warrant killing on its own.

Do you really play games where people can afford to just remove everything as it comes out? That's not really the norm in my experience.
My experience is that people can afford to remove everything that has *win the game* printed on it as it comes out. Nobody expects Felidar Sovereign to go around the table a few times without anybody bothering it, I'm not sure why this is expected to play out differently.
Costing 6 vs costing 2 is a pretty big deal though. It's going to be a lot easier to drop Phile with mana up to counter, or to just sneak them in early and demand an answer before it's really reasonable to do so.
Oh, definitely (though having mana up to counter is less useful when every card you spend protecting the Phile is another card you need to "earn back" to actually hit the 13 number). My point wasn't comparing the two on power level, just pointing out that they both are cards that require living until the upkeep, have win the game printed on them with relatively achievable conditions, and thus rarely actually make it through the full turn cycle.

@pokken Against a blue deck, waiting until the last minute *also* seems like a way to get wrecked. I'd expect people to kill it preemptively, use "value" kills on it like etb effects, have it get caught as collateral in wraths... it will die in a multitude of ways, and almost certainly won't fly under the radar.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
@pokken Against a blue deck, waiting until the last minute *also* seems like a way to get wrecked. I'd expect people to kill it preemptively, use "value" kills on it like etb effects, have it get caught as collateral in wraths... it will die in a multitude of ways, and almost certainly won't fly under the radar.
Weirdly being a 1/3 makes it a lot better for resilience to that, lots and lots of random kills in EDH are stuff like Sword of Fire and Ice and ping for a couple randomly.

I think you'll be surprised by how good this thing is either as 4-for-1 where you pump all your mana into it when someone goes to remove it and get to trade for a removal spell, or as a game winner when you've established control and a muse.

I do think it's very narrowly good in Training Grounds.dec. But in that deck I like it a lot more than Tainted Pact lines.

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Post by Serenade » 1 month ago

Guys, Triskaidekaphile won't be a problem since we have all of this cheap, instant-speed removal now!

I'll try out Infernal Grasp against Baleful Mastery. The latter replaced my Murderous Rider // Swift End, Dismember, and other cheap critter removal across my decks. I'll probably keep both.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 month ago

Triskadekaphile should eat removal because of the draw, not the win con. If you can maintain a board and a hand of 13 cards, you shouldn't need the win con.
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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 month ago
Triskadekaphile should eat removal because of the draw, not the win con. If you can maintain a board and a hand of 13 cards, you shouldn't need the win con.
Maybe if you also have Training Grounds but in which case you're going to draw a bunch of cards in response to removal, making it less desirable to do so.

Threats are really threatening nowadays. I don't know that it's guaranteed a Triskaidekaphile is going to eat removal unless you have an active untap-each-upkeep effect necessarily, even with a cost reducer.

If someone plays a Seedborn Muse after their Triskaidekaphile which one do you remove? Now if they have Biomancer's Familiar out?

(the answer is 100% Seedborn Muse but you can see the problem here. You leave them with familiar and triskdude and they draw cards for 1U and possibly win).

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
tstorm823 wrote:
1 month ago
Triskadekaphile should eat removal because of the draw, not the win con. If you can maintain a board and a hand of 13 cards, you shouldn't need the win con.
Maybe if you also have Training Grounds but in which case you're going to draw a bunch of cards in response to removal, making it less desirable to do so.

Threats are really threatening nowadays. I don't know that it's guaranteed a Triskaidekaphile is going to eat removal unless you have an active untap-each-upkeep effect necessarily, even with a cost reducer.

If someone plays a Seedborn Muse after their Triskaidekaphile which one do you remove? Now if they have Biomancer's Familiar out?

(the answer is 100% Seedborn Muse but you can see the problem here. You leave them with familiar and triskdude and they draw cards for 1U and possibly win).
I'm pretty sure I just wrath at that point.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
I'm pretty sure I just wrath at that point.
It gets counterspelled because they untapped on your turn with seedborn muse, gg :P

(or they draw 6 cards in response, equally awful...or 12 cards if you are two turns back in the order).

edit: But of course, card is good with Seedborn Muse, news at 11 :P

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 month ago

Infernal Grasp is, of course, good. The premier black single target creature removal spell in the format, period. It's also one of the best cards I'm least excited by.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 month ago

On the one hand, I like Infernal Grasp for being a solid uncommon workhorse card that does its job well without breaking anything. On the other, I hate it for consolidating a slot that had a lot of roughly-equal variants before and a lot of space for further variants that would distinguish decks and spread the card price.
pokken wrote:
1 month ago
I would expect no one to try to kill it until the end step before they were going to try to win personally, since doing so preemptively on a 2 mana creature is a great way to just get wrecked
In my experience, people consistently overstate the threat of anything that says "you win the game" on it. Someone could be playing Darksteel Reactor and everyone would still prioritize it. If one person oversells a threat, that's bad play; if the table oversells a threat, that's the political landscape.
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Post by Serenade » 1 month ago

Just noticed that pumpkin field art is the basic Plains. Might grab a bunch of those.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 month ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 month ago
Infernal Grasp is, of course, good. The premier black single target creature removal spell in the format, period. It's also one of the best cards I'm least excited by.
BeneTleilax wrote:
1 month ago
On the one hand, I like Infernal Grasp for being a solid uncommon workhorse card that does its job well without breaking anything. On the other, I hate it for consolidating a slot that had a lot of roughly-equal variants before and a lot of space for further variants that would distinguish decks and spread the card price.

I think I prefer Baleful Mastery, unless I care about death triggers. Exiling is a pretty decent add, and honestly I think the draw is also an upside on balance. There are cards like Forbidden Orchard that are kinda awkward to use, because a lot of the time you don't really know who the threat is or who is safe to give freebies too, but you still need the mana. With Baleful Mastery, you've presumably decided who the threat is because you're using removal on them. Obviously it's a downside when it's 1v1, but usually by then the extra 2 mana isn't a big deal.

Arguably bigger than either of those advantages is the ability to exile planeswalkers too. I almost forgot about that one lol - haven't played the card much since my most recent mono-black deck is Ebondeath, Dracolich and he DOES care about death triggers.

The 2 life loss is also obviously a downside for grasp, albeit a pretty small one.
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Post by onering » 1 month ago

I just like that black is finally getting spot creature removal that outclasses blue's suite again.

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