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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
3 months ago
green is […] generally the strongest for draft.
Lol. I didn't expect to see a misinformed opinion on limited in the commander subforum. Players who like overgeneralised hot takes do not fare well in competitive limited.

I disagree in commander too, although it's less cut-and-dried. I think green is probably the easiest to play on average, and does the most "impressive" things, which tends to result in it looking the best to many players. But when we're talking winrate in a skilled, balanced meta (not just cEDH) I'd say it's blue by a significant margin, and probably black in second tbh.
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Venedrex
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Post by Venedrex » 3 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
3 months ago
Venedrex wrote:
3 months ago
And you know what is really rich. Greens "WEAKNESS" is supposed to be its overreliance on creatures. In the age of Uro and Hydroid Krasis, playing creatures is like breathing. How is it a weakness to have to play creatures. EVERY DECK PLAYS CREATURES. I know what your going to say but what about control decks? You know what I ran in every control deck I've ever played? Creatures.
That's not green's weakness. Green is actually strong as a spellslinger color with commanders like Kalamax, the Stormsire and Sarulf, Realm Eater.

Green's weaknesses are that it doesn't have giant flying creatures, doesn't have traditional creature removal, doesn't have burn, and doesn't have countermagic. However, in a multiplayer format with 40 life when you have lots of ramp and creature tutors to play Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, not being able to cast Murder, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, or Serra Angel isn't a big weakness.

Blue is the best for cEDH, but for most games green is the most powerful for EDH, and it's generally the strongest for draft. I do appreciate white getting cards like Esper Sentinel and Smothering Tithe, but then they print cards like Hullbreacher and Opposition Agent, making cards like Aven Mindcensor and Alms Collector seem like jokes.
I present for the gallery: Veil of Summer Ram Through Kill spell/burn and counterspell. The weakness of green is its dependence on creatures, hence why its "kill" and "burn" needs creatures. Veil does nothing if you don't have a threat, like a creature your trying to resolve. Wotc is the ones who say greens big weakness is supposed to be being too dependent on creatures, so take it up with them.

That's not to say green doens't have good instants and sorceries, it does, it just means it is supposed to struggle when you kill all of its big creatures. For instance, Rishkar's Expertise doesn't do a whole lot without a big creature in play.

Red doesn't have countermagic, but that's not its main weakness, its the fact that red is supposed burn up quick and run out of gas as the game goes on.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

Referencing Maro's article on Green:
Green's greatest strength is its absolute, unwavering belief in the natural system. Green embraces nature and is able to connect with it through that bond and use it in ways that are primal and very powerful. This connection also allows green access to many giant creatures that serve as muscle to help green push forward its agenda.

Green's weakness is its over-reliance on this system. For example, green is so focused on using creatures that there are a number of problems green simply can't deal with when it doesn't have creatures. In short, green puts too many eggs in one basket—and when that basket doesn't have the answer, green is often at loss for solving its problems.
In other words, green's strength is it has good creatures, and its weakness is that it has to play lots of those creatures. That doesn't really sound like a weakness.

I'll contrast with white's strengths and weaknesses:
White's greatest strength is its organization. White is detail oriented and always has an answer to every problem. White has built up a complex infrastructure and is very efficient at using that infrastructure, be it laws, politics, or religion to its benefit. White's division of power, spreading evenly among all its supporters, makes defeating it difficult because no one piece is, unto itself, more important than any other piece. Finally, white has learned how to make small pieces interact in a way where their power is far stronger than the sum of their parts.

White's greatest weakness comes from its reliance on structure. White has no flexibility. It can only adapt to the things it predicted, and has great trouble when something new comes along. This inflexibility makes white slow to adapt so white can often fall behind when an environment changes. White also, at times, has trouble distinguishing how important any one facet is, as it likes to treat everything equally.

Another way to think of it is: white's greatest strength is its effective use of the group, white's greatest weakness is its disregard for the power of the individual.
In other words, white's strength is it can answer anything, and when it gets everything together, it's really hard to stop. White's weakness is that it can't respond to unexpected problems, and its cards are weak individually.

The 'strong in numbers / weak alone' element does come through in some ways - white has anthems to buff lots of creatures, and tax / prison pieces like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ghostly Prison are very suffocating in multiples, but do little individually. On the flip side, the 'can answer any problem / can't deal with unexpected problems' dichotomy doesn't really make sense. The actual dichotomy in practice is 'white can deal with any problem, but it can't deal with every problem' - white has both the most flexible answers (ex: Oblivion Ring) and the widest selection of hate cards, but it runs out of those answers quickly. I don't believe that this is supposed to be white's weakness - if anything, I'd actually argue that running out of resources is supposed to be red's weakness, not white's.... except red has grown past this weakness in the form of impulsive draw and Outpost Siege effects.

See red's article.
Red's greatest weakness is an unwillingness to think long-term. Red is very short-sighted, trying to accomplish what it wants right now and seldom thinking of the ramifications of its actions. Red often puts all its eggs in one basket, and if that plan doesn't work out, red can easily get itself in trouble.

ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 months ago

Mookie wrote:
3 months ago
In other words, green's strength is it has good creatures, and its weakness is that it has to play lots of those creatures. That doesn't really sound like a weakness.
Then i wonder why green wasn't the best color since day 1 and even today is debatable if green or blue is better.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 months ago
Mookie wrote:
3 months ago
In other words, green's strength is it has good creatures, and its weakness is that it has to play lots of those creatures. That doesn't really sound like a weakness.
Then i wonder why green wasn't the best color since day 1 and even today is debatable if green or blue is better.
Early on creatures were way over costed relative to spells that answered them. The pendulum has swung on that

ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 months ago
Mookie wrote:
3 months ago
In other words, green's strength is it has good creatures, and its weakness is that it has to play lots of those creatures. That doesn't really sound like a weakness.
Then i wonder why green wasn't the best color since day 1 and even today is debatable if green or blue is better.
Early on creatures were way over costed relative to spells that answered them. The pendulum has swung on that
It was a sarcastic remark to the statement that relying on creatures and having good creatures is not a weakness in a game where removal and combo exists.

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Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 3 months ago

Uh-oh, is Lorcan, Warlock Collector going to get errata like Anafenza, the Foremost?
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

It looks like we're finally getting reprints of the Mirrodin Talismans, which is good to see. Those have been weirdly overpriced for a long time.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Bit of a deep cut, but am I the only one who gets kind of a portal vibe from a lot of this set? So much sorcery-speed stuff, it seems like they really didn't want anyone to get blown the hell up by on-board tricks.
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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 3 months ago

Hellish Rebuke is awesome. Looking forward to putting it in my Chromium deck and possibly others.

The first time some player using Purphoros thinks they are safe to go off is gonna be fun.

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Sanity_Eclipse
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
It looks like we're finally getting reprints of the Mirrodin Talismans, which is good to see. Those have been weirdly overpriced for a long time.
A good start, now we just need them reprinted in a Modern Masters/Horizons type of set. 👍

Looking over the Rakdos deck spoiler, only seeing a few cards I would want which is good. I slightly got in the habit with previous releases to just buy the set of CMDR decks regardless, so it looks like I might be able to save a bit on this release.

So far it's just the red, green, and maybe blue mythic dragons from the main set, the Class cards, a couple Legends, and a couple random commons/uncommons from most colors that I truly want and will prioritize acquiring.
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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

Quite a few cool cards from the Rakdos precon. My Kess deck has an 'act like a cartoonish supervillain' theme, which overlaps really nicely with the precon's theme.
  • Grim Hireling is a solid treasure producer if you can consistently deal combat damage.
  • Hellish Rebuke is black's version of Comeuppance. Doesn't prevent the damage, but it certainly can be a blowout.
  • Lorcan, Warlock Collector is terrifying. Mill opponents, get free creatures (assuming you can pay the life). Or just kill stuff and steal it. Personally, I'd try Lorcan out alongside Altar of Dementia.
  • Reckless Endeavor is a board wipe // ritual, which is an interesting combination.
  • Share the Spoils looks like a lot of fun. Sort of a janky Knowledge Pool variant.
  • Fevered Suspicion also looks fun, as a mass pseudo-theft effect. Rebound doesn't really interact favorably with Kess, but still an entertaining option.
  • Wild-Magic Sorcerer is more cascaaaaaaade, which I'm always pleased to see. Unsure if it would fit in my theorycrafted cascade deck though, since the only spells cast from exile there are, well, the spells I cascade into (which are implicitly going to be a lower CMC, and may not have more things to chain into). Still, sweet for madness / rebound / impulsive draw decks.
  • Karazikar, the Eye Tyrant is a perfect excuse to say "dance, puppets, dance! fight to the death for my amusement!"
  • Underdark Rift is a bit expensive, but it's also a removal spell on a land.

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 3 months ago

no obvious reason why Grim Hireling couldn't be in the main set... most of these cards use outside mechanics but the Tiefling wouldve slot right in nicely. works as a G/B or Jund plaguelord that controls the board and creates advantage in a long grindy game, wouldve made the set better I think. I like that card a lot!

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Problem with Hellish Rebuke is that it doesn't happen if they kill ya, so it incentivizes them to one-shot you :P

They really should fix commander so that a player's triggers don't exit the stack when they die. Or maybe they have and I just don't know any better.


sounds like the opponent controls the triggers since they come from the creatures/etc. Dope :)
Last edited by pokken 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Problem with Hellish Rebuke is that it doesn't happen if they kill ya, so it incentivizes them to one-shot you :P

They really should fix commander so that a player's triggers don't exit the stack when they die. Or maybe they have and I just don't know any better.
No, your opponents will be controlling the triggers - their creatures gain the ability, and that effect doesn't go away until end of turn, even if you die.

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Post by Igzex » 3 months ago

Oh man Share the Spoils. I've seriously been waiting far too long for a new chaos card. Also I love how this doesn't cost a bajillion mana like most chaos cards.

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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 3 months ago

AURA OF COURAGE Decklist via the Mothership and The Command Zone
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Decklist

Commander


Approximate Total Cost:

Puresteel Paladin, Nature's Lore, Heroic Intervention, Sword of the Animist, Imprisoned in the Moon, Greater Good, Utopia Sprawl, Thriving Lands from JMP stand out as the cool reprints.

Land selection continues to be absolute cheeks, overall.

Mantle of the Ancients, Robe of Stars, Diviner's Portent, Valiant Endeavor, Ride the Avalanche stand out as the cool new cards.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Man some pretty wild stuff in that deck, looks like a prety decent one.
Fey Steed is also DAF.

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Post by Venedrex » 3 months ago

I like Robe of Stars and Mantle of the Ancients a lot. Fey Steed just feels like a Shapers' Sanctuary tacked onto a four mana 4/4 with a subpar combat trigger.

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Igzex
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Post by Igzex » 3 months ago

They're at least putting more rare lands in these precons. Also always a pleasure to see tango lands in these precons. Who cares what everyone and their 8 basic land manabases think just make the enemy colored tangos already, WOTC! Pretty nice reprints for that deck overall.

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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 3 months ago

Heroic Intervention's new art is also DAF. 🔥

Swiftfoot Boots' reprint makes me think of the TES: Oblivion item Boots of Bloody Bounding lol.
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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

A few more things...

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Venedrex wrote:
3 months ago
I like Robe of Stars and Mantle of the Ancients a lot. Fey Steed just feels like a Shapers' Sanctuary tacked onto a four mana 4/4 with a subpar combat trigger.
Being a creature has some advantages and it also covers walkers. In a multiplayer game, the attack trigger isn't *that* bad.

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Post by Venedrex » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Venedrex wrote:
3 months ago
I like Robe of Stars and Mantle of the Ancients a lot. Fey Steed just feels like a Shapers' Sanctuary tacked onto a four mana 4/4 with a subpar combat trigger.
Being a creature has some advantages and it also covers walkers. In a multiplayer game, the attack trigger isn't *that* bad.
Yeah, that's true. It's not bad. I'm just hoping for a 1-1 color shift I guess :)

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