Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 2 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago
Hawk wrote:
2 months ago
Volo, Guide to Monsters: It's happening. It's finally happening! A Simic Commander that hits all my joy buttons without being easy-mode/problem commander (Tatyova, Benthic Druid, Pir, Imaginative Rascal // Toothy, Imaginary Friend, grinding games to an absolute crawl (Momir Vig, Simic Visionary), being too slow for modern EDH (Experiment Kraj). or being just some boring Simic Stompy Ramp commander. I cannot wait to brew for Volo - the ask is big, but the payoff is bigger.
If i;'m understanding this correctly, it's Clone on a commander, right?
Sorta? Volo lets you Clone/Copy each creature you cast, as long as it shares a type with no other creature you control or in your graveyard. I reckon a few things will matter for Volo as a result:

1) Volo actually really likes Clones like, well, Clone, Stunt Double, Duplicant, Spark Double, and Altered Ego, since they are Shapeshifters or Illusions on the stack but something else on the battlefield.
2) Volo can't get value out of Humans or Wizards unless you do something to alter his type. That does cut off a few of the major value players for a Simic deck like Eternal Witness, Aether Adept, Archaeomancer, Agent of Treachery, and the mages.
3) Volo is pumped to dig around for creatures with relatively unique/unusual typelines for this color pair. You're quickly going to find your Elves/Druids/Shamans/Beasts/Elementals shut off if you're not careful, so Volo is looking for more exotic monsters like Jellyfish and Sponges and Zombie Gods.
4) Self-bounce (like from Crystal Shard, my favorite) or ways to yank stuff out of your 'yard will also help Volo consistently double up on his monstrous menagerie.

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Post by Mookie » 2 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 months ago
I personally hope that Deck of Many Things doesn't see play, because losing to a literal roll of the dice is gonna feel awful.
I'll note that the last ability is extremely rare and won't happen without some conscious effort - a 1/20 chance is already unlikely, plus its controller has to be hellbent, which may not always be feasible. Additionally, the lose the game trigger only happens if the creature dies - if you have access to bounce or exile, it's possible to save yourself (assuming no sac outlet). Alternatively, run grave hate to remove creatures from your graveyard. It's certainly not something you want to happen to you, but it's a rare enough event that it should make for a good story when it does happen.

Re: Gretchen Twitchwillow - I was joking when I said Simic's themes were 'ramp, card draw, and ramp and card draw', but apparently I was just being prescient.
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Post by Dragoon » 2 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 months ago
Yeah, and those don't feel great, but they (and mana screw, etc) are the tradeoffs we make for deck variance, and playing a card game. This like saying "mana screw is built in the system, so who are you to complain when I destroy your mana". Accepting something as a tradeoff is not the same as liking it as an end in itself.
I don't see how the analogy stands up. Voluntarily screwing someone's mana is not the same as accidentally scoring a 20 when you have no hand. If I'm hellbent, and roll a 20, and you have a creature in your graveyard, and I can make it die, then you lose. There are a number of hoops to jump through, and this is probably less likely that someone just topdecking the perfect answer to your deck. Yes, this is a new element of randomness added to the game, but it hardly affects you overall chances of victory imo.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 months ago

Dragoon wrote:
2 months ago
I don't see how the analogy stands up. Voluntarily screwing someone's mana is not the same as accidentally scoring a 20 when you have no hand. If I'm hellbent, and roll a 20, and you have a creature in your graveyard, and I can make it die, then you lose. There are a number of hoops to jump through, and this is probably less likely that someone just topdecking the perfect answer to your deck. Yes, this is a new element of randomness added to the game, but it hardly affects you overall chances of victory imo.
"Accidentally" winning is exactly my problem with this. I would rather loose to kingmaking than to blind luck. I'm fine with most of the dice roll cards here, because they're about calculating risk and reward, and while they can give significant advantage, none of the others just hand you the game if you're lucky enough. I'm not wild about alt-wincons in general, and this is proudly anti-strategic.
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Post by Igzex » 2 months ago

I told you all that card designed by greedy Simic/Sultai commander enthusiast was just around the corner. Look on the bright side, Tatyova, Benthic Druid is a cheap deck to build so come on y'all, it will only take a few packs to open up our copies of Gretchen so we can properly play Wizards of the Coast's Commander™!

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Post by Moonlighter » 2 months ago

I won't play them anywhere, but Hired Hexblade and Jaded Sell-Sword are both fun in terms of flavor-to-mechanics ratio. I think spending treasures for extra effects is pretty solid as a way to make your cards seem "greedy".

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Post by Serenade » 2 months ago

Moonlighter wrote:
2 months ago
I won't play them anywhere, but Hired Hexblade and Jaded Sell-Sword are both fun in terms of flavor-to-mechanics ratio. I think spending treasures for extra effects is pretty solid as a way to make your cards seem "greedy".
Luckily they gave us a whole legend based on it with Kalain, Reclusive Painter! Not sure if that payoff will happen too much in EDH now, but I'm sure we'll get more ammo for her over time.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 months ago

I like kalain's design, but I have a hard time believing the payoff will be good or satisfying enough. It's not like Olivia, Mobilized for War is very popular, and I'd say she's overall easier to enable, has a better body, and grants haste. I just can't think of a lot of strong +1 counter payoffs in rb.
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Post by tstorm823 » 2 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 months ago
I like kalain's design, but I have a hard time believing the payoff will be good or satisfying enough. It's not like Olivia, Mobilized for War is very popular, and I'd say she's overall easier to enable, has a better body, and grants haste. I just can't think of a lot of strong +1 counter payoffs in rb.
To be fair, that Olivia should be more popular. She's bonkers.
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 months ago

Minimus Containment looks potentially useful for decks that care about enchantments &/or auras. It's almost as good as Song of the Dryads but at common. Being able to sacrifice the enchanted permanent eliminates the feel-bad experience of having your commander trapped as a Forest (or 0/1 indestructible, etc.) indefinitely. This makes Minimus Containment worse than Song of the Dryads overall but nicer.

Edit: "great" --> "potentially useful"
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Post by Mookie » 2 months ago

  • Guardian of Faith is an interesting Teferi's Protection variant. Doesn't retrigger ETB abilities, unlike Eerie Interlude, but being on a creature is certainly relevant.
  • Demilich is an interesting variant on Arclight Phoenix. Exiling four spells is a very significant cost - see how unplayable Skaab Ruinator is - but you can still cast it from hand. Generating card advantage on attack is also quite solid. This looks like a build-enabler for other formats.
  • Wizard's Spellbook is very expensive, but flashing back spells repeatedly is very strong. The critical success ability is obviously absurd.
  • Kalain, Reclusive Painter doesn't excite me. I suppose she may be playable as a commander for a treasure-focused deck, but I'm not convinced there are enough enablers. More critically, a +1/+1 counter isn't a particularly exciting payoff.
  • Minimus Containment is indeed an interesting option, but it seems weaker than a normal Oblivion Ring effect.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 months ago

I suspect Minimus Containment will usually be better than Banishing Light because it encourages the controller of the enchanted permanent to sacrifice it, making it less likely to eventually return. I'd say it's about even with Oblivion Ring (thanks to Ring's sacrifice tricks to permanently exile things) but worse than Song and Grasp of Fate as far as 3-MV enchantment removal options go. A niche card, but potentially useful in decks that card about enchantments &/or auras. One unusual thing about Containment is that you can use it as a roundabout way to sacrifice a nonland permanent, such as when you want to bring a nonland permanent back from the yard but don't have another way to get it there.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
2 months ago
I suspect Minimus Containment will usually be better than Banishing Light because it encourages the controller of the enchanted permanent to sacrifice it, making it less likely to eventually return.
Giving your opponent a choice is a downside, not an upside. That one mana might end up being crucial.

That said, it does have the real plus that the card will get destroyed by Hour of Revelation or any other wipes that kill artifacts and enchantments, so it's less likely to get free without dying. Or you could Shatter it in response if they try to demystify your enchantment.
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 months ago
Giving your opponent a choice is a downside, not an upside. That one mana might end up being crucial.
That ignores how these things tend to play out in practice in a multiplayer game. If, as I suspect, folks will often choose to sacrifice the enchanted permanent, that means less chance of the enchanted permanent becoming a problem again. Banishing Light effects often work for a while but then get caught up in a random wipe. A player with a permanent enchanted by Containment doesn't know whether another player has a wipe that hits enchantments, so they have an incentive to just sac the Treasure if they can't or don't want to use targeted removal on Containment. The lack of information pushes players to value the short-term perk of an extra mana over the possible long-term perk of a wipe destroying Containment. In the context of a multiplayer game with lots of hidden information, giving your opponent the choice in question can make the removal aspect of Containment more reliable than Banishing Light or similar.

Of course, the affected opponent can choose to wait & see if an enchantment wipe comes, which will sometimes pay off. (Though probably not too often, given below.) & of course Banishing Light effects have the advantage of exiling, while Containment allows recursion.
That said, it does have the real plus that the card will get destroyed by Hour of Revelation or any other wipes that kill artifacts and enchantments, so it's less likely to get free without dying. Or you could Shatter it in response if they try to demystify your enchantment.
That's a good point. I saw a wipe (Austere Command) hit enchantments but not artifacts just last week, but most commonly wipes either hit both or neither.

Containment seems best for decks that focus specifically on auras. If you're running Kor Spiritdancer, Sram, Senior Edificer, Retether, Three Dreams, Heliod's Pilgrim, etc., then go to town. Only Song of the Dryads directly trumps Containment as far as 3MV aura removal options go. (Reality Acid can be better with enablers.)
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

Minimus Containment has a bit of a downside in that if your opponent wants to recur/reanimate the thing you might get got, but overall it's a really good thing to have access to. Heliod's Pilgrim tutorable removal that has a lot going for it.

I'd absolutely play it in an enchantment deck.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 months ago

There are a ton of other variants of this effect already, so which one you want kinda depends on what your deck is doing and what you anticipate playing against. Plus all the arrest variants that are a softer version of the similar effect.
UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
2 months ago
That ignores how these things tend to play out in practice in a multiplayer game.
Setting aside the particulars of how they play with board wipes, removal, stifles, sac outlets, etc. (and even setting aside the possibility of recursion) giving your opponent the choice to sacrifice it is strictly downside. In the vast majority of cases, they have at least as much information as you do about whether the immediate value they get from using the mana is worth more or less that the possibility that the enchantment will be destroyed later. If you think it's an upside, then you're basically assuming that your opponents are more likely to make the wrong play than the right one in a simple binary choice.

Actually, this is commander players we're talking about so that probably tracks.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 months ago
There are a ton of other variants of this effect already, so which one you want kinda depends on what your deck is doing and what you anticipate playing against. Plus all the arrest variants that are a softer version of the similar effect.
Name one that is white that deals with all nonland permanents.

All of those except Imprisoned in the Moon are creature only and moon ramps them forever.

The closest white analog is Oblivion Ring which is better in some ways and worse than others. That's a fine place to be, since O-Ring sees a reasonable amount of play.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 months ago
There are a ton of other variants of this effect already, so which one you want kinda depends on what your deck is doing and what you anticipate playing against.
Those don't do anything about artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers (except for Imprisoned in the Moon).
If you think it's an upside, then you're basically assuming that your opponents are more likely to make the wrong play than the right one in a simple binary choice.
I'm saying the dynamics of a multiplayer game provide an incentive to use the mana and thus make Containment more reliable removal than Banishing Light on average. It's the right play, & it makes it better (on average, as removal) than Banishing Light (assuming you want a nonland permanent gone for long as possible). The controller of the enchanted permanent's interest in mana now & your interest in preventing the permanent from coming back later on will often align.

However, because of what you pointed out about the enchanted permanent being an artifact & thus vulnerable to wipes that hit both artifacts & enchantments, we can just say Containment is usually better than Banishing Light because of that (at least for reliably removing a nonland permanent). Wipes that hit enchantments but not artifacts are rare, despite my recent experience.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
Name one that is white that deals with all nonland permanents.
My bad, I thought it was just creature. That does make this quite a bit spicier.
UnfulfilledDesires wrote:I'm saying the dynamics of a multiplayer game provide an incentive to use the mana and thus make Containment more reliable removal than Banishing Light on average. It's the right play, & it makes it better (on average, as removal) than Banishing Light (assuming you want a nonland permanent gone for long as possible). The controller of the enchanted permanent's interest in mana now & your interest in preventing the permanent from coming back later on will often align.
If you think that reasoning is valid, why couldn't it hold true in a 1v1 game? Do people not want mana in 1v1 games?

As soon as we apply it to a 1v1 scenario we see why it doesn't make sense. Any gain for your opponent is a loss for you, and vice versa. You and your opponents interests cannot align because they are diametrically opposed.

Now in multiplayer obviously there will be cases where the sac effect is upside for you - say if it lets them cast a counterspell on someone else's combo. Your interests are rarely diametrically opposed to someone else in multiplayer - it would have to be a complete and total archenemy situation (or maybe you both just really hate each other's guts?), to be 100% in opposition. But on average, without knowing any specifics, an upside for your opponent is a downside for you, because on average you are in opposition given that you ultimately need to kill each other to win. Which makes giving them the option a downside for you in the abstract, even if particular games might cause it to be an upside.
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Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 months ago
If you think that reasoning is valid, why couldn't it hold true in a 1v1 game? Do people not want mana in 1v1 games?
Your opponent has other opponents in EDH. Based on both experience & theory, you can't treat EDH the same as you would 1v1. Having multiple opponents makes for different decision dynamics. This is a profound shift from 1v1, not a minor one.

Again, it doesn't much matter, because in most metas, wipes that hit enchantments but not artifacts are rare, so there's little upside to not sacrificing the enchanted permanent for mana in the hopes an Austere Command with the right modes selected will free it. (Sometimes it will be the right decision to wait & hope to draw spot removal or your own Command, etc.)

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Post by DirkGently » 2 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
2 months ago
Your opponent has other opponents in EDH. Based on both experience & theory, you can't treat EDH the same as you would 1v1. Having multiple opponents makes for different decision dynamics. This is a profound shift from 1v1, not a minor one.
Lol you know you're talking to a Phelddagrif player, right?

I completely agree that within a specific game situation it could be an upside. It could also be an upside (to you) for one of your opponents to start with 50 life - maybe they become a crucial ally against an archenemy and the extra life lets them survive to cast a stabilizing spell. Maybe the extra life draws attention away from you. Maybe you swap life totals with them at some point. But if I gave you the option at the start of the game, not knowing anything about how it was going to go down, would you want one of your opponents to start at 50 life? Obviously not - despite specific situations that run contrary, on average your opponent having more life is bad for you. And when we're evaluating a card, we're trying to look at the average, and on average giving your opponent a benefit - whether it's a choice or extra life - is a downside for you.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Igzex
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Post by Igzex » 2 months ago

Red Dragon would've been something I would've been much more excited about many years ago when my dragon commander was Intet, the Dreamer. Copy it with Progenitor Mimic and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker...Beautiful....

Nowadays games are too fast and too full of answers to ever pull off such a thing. Even casually ;_;

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Cyberium
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Post by Cyberium » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
image.png
Simic draw-ramp is like Boros Combat, except even more annoying.

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folding_music
trelasarra main
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Post by folding_music » 2 months ago

absolutely liking Minimus Containment in decks with Femeref Enchantress? Has always been my favourite enchantress of the bunch anyway. make every enchantment in yr deck an Aura and run Tranquil Domain too, kinda thing. such a nice alternate strat that doesn't show up as much as the good stuff variety

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Serenade
UnderKing
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Post by Serenade » 2 months ago

Having another aura option that can hit all nonland permanents feels worth trying. Sometimes you only have Lignify but need to deal with Liliana, Dreadhorde General.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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