Unreleased and New Card Discussion

brainface
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Post by brainface » 3 months ago

The flavor/mechanics tie-in is continuing to be a huge miss for me. Like... the tarrasque isn't a dinosaur? In D&d, it's either a beast or a monstrosity depending on edition. Mythologically, it's a dragon. But some designer thought it'd be cool if it worked with dinosaur tribal, so it's a dinosaur now I guess. And I'm kind of hitting that note repeatedly while I read the cards--writing "keen senses" in front of etb draw a card for no reason just annoys me.

Some things are great, like portable hole. That sounds like a portable hole when I read it! Mechanics, art, flavor text, all tie in together great. Others just feel kinda phoned in or like they're trying to sell to me by hitting a nostalgia note off-key. ^_^

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I suspect icingdeath, frost tyrant will be wielding his own tongue a fair amount of the time. Kinda vanilla for a commander though.

That name gets sillier the more I say it. Lock away your cakes, the devourer of frosting is coming!
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 3 months ago

brainface wrote:
3 months ago
The flavor/mechanics tie-in is continuing to be a huge miss for me. Like... the tarrasque isn't a dinosaur? In D&d, it's either a beast or a monstrosity depending on edition. Mythologically, it's a dragon. But some designer thought it'd be cool if it worked with dinosaur tribal, so it's a dinosaur now I guess. And I'm kind of hitting that note repeatedly while I read the cards--writing "keen senses" in front of etb draw a card for no reason just annoys me.

Some things are great, like portable hole. That sounds like a portable hole when I read it! Mechanics, art, flavor text, all tie in together great. Others just feel kinda phoned in or like they're trying to sell to me by hitting a nostalgia note off-key. ^_^
Dinosaurs are usually Animals, Beasts, or in a few cases Magical Beasts, in D&D. So the typing is fairly accurate. A few Dinos are considered drakes however, so Dragon could have worked as well.
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Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 3 months ago

I'm loving the extraneous trinket text; honestly it's how Magic should have been, from the very beginning.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 months ago
I suspect icingdeath, frost tyrant will be wielding his own tongue a fair amount of the time. Kinda vanilla for a commander though.

That name gets sillier the more I say it. Lock away your cakes, the devourer of frosting is coming!
It's a pretty famous white dragon from the forgotten realms that was a villain in a 2nd edition adventure. And in the DLC to the orginal Icewind Dale PC game, you got to fight her protolich form as the main villain of the DLC.

That said, her name is quite silly, but then again, White Dragons aren't really known for being smart. As an adult, they are usually only as intelligent as the average human, and even as Great Wyrms they barely reach genius level intellects.
What I am trying to say is that White Dragons are born barely more sentient than the average dog, and while they grow more intelligent as they age, they don't get smarter.
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Post by folding_music » 3 months ago

Generally loving the vibe of all the previewed cards; kinda worried about the cradle druid. would slot into all my fancy old "All Forests" edh deck ideas but I'm sore about them releasing stuff that's *so much* better than what I was relying on that it almost feels like easy mode card design

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Post by Krishnath » 3 months ago

folding_music wrote:
3 months ago
Generally loving the vibe of all the previewed cards; kinda worried about the cradle druid. would slot into all my fancy old "All Forests" edh deck ideas but I'm sore about them releasing stuff that's *so much* better than what I was relying on that it almost feels like easy mode card design
My first thought about the druid was "Does Elves really need to produce more mana?"

It might be fun in a deck that produces insane amounts of saprolings or squirrels though.
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Post by FoxOfWar » 3 months ago

I wonder if the feeling I have is the same I had back when Time Spiral was new and I had been playing Magic for a year - tons of references to stuff I have no idea about. I only really know about DnD via popcultural osmosis.

Not looking like my sort of set.
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Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 3 months ago

Admittedly, the name Icingdeath did not age well.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

The power level of this set seems really low so far tbh. Which I'm cool with, but I have a hard time imagining this stuff competing in standard.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

brainface
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Post by brainface » 3 months ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 months ago
Dinosaurs are usually Animals, Beasts, or in a few cases Magical Beasts, in D&D. So the typing is fairly accurate. A few Dinos are considered drakes however, so Dragon could have worked as well.
That logic could be used to justify squirrel dinosaurs, because both have been animals? (or worse, birds! haha.) Like not to start a fight but i think thats some real rectangles are squares logic.

Like... dinosaurs are things based on real world dinosaurs. Kalamax is a stegosaurus. That hippo companion has a steggo tail. Snapdrax is... a sabertooth tiger? This is also dumb, but at least its vaguely the same era I guess. The other ikoria kaiju dinosaurs have pteradactyl wings or something at least

Tarrasque is a an apocalypse monster. He's not based off a t-rex or anything.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 months ago

Tarrasque is such a flavor failure. That it dies to deathtouch is crazy. It should have some form of auto regen or indestructible at bare minimum. This should be an utterly terrifying huge creature. Also, not a dinosaur, it should have been "Creature - Tarrasque" or if they had to not give it its own creatures type then give it like "Titan Beast" or something.

Icingdeath is cool, although it sucks to have to put the dragon Drizzt killed in his own deck just so he can have one of his famous legendary Swords. I am totally going to do that though.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 months ago

brainface wrote:
3 months ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 months ago
Dinosaurs are usually Animals, Beasts, or in a few cases Magical Beasts, in D&D. So the typing is fairly accurate. A few Dinos are considered drakes however, so Dragon could have worked as well.
That logic could be used to justify squirrel dinosaurs, because both have been animals? (or worse, birds! haha.) Like not to start a fight but i think thats some real rectangles are squares logic.

Like... dinosaurs are things based on real world dinosaurs. Kalamax is a stegosaurus. That hippo companion has a steggo tail. Snapdrax is... a sabertooth tiger? This is also dumb, but at least its vaguely the same era I guess. The other ikoria kaiju dinosaurs have pteradactyl wings or something at least

Tarrasque is a an apocalypse monster. He's not based off a t-rex or anything.
The D&D Tarrasque is actually based of Godzilla.

But yeah, D&D don't have as many creature types as MTG. Animals for example, is a huge group consisting of, well, mundane animals, living and extinct. But also a few fantasy animals without supernatural abilities. It contains everything from dogs to dinosaurs to fish to birds to amphibians, and everything in between (but not insects, arachnids, worms and the like because they have their own category). Beasts used to be a category in earlier editions, and usually covered dinosaurs and other extinct creatures as well as more fantastical nonmagical creatures (such as the owlbear and the purple worm), but it went the way of the dodo during the 3E/3.5 rules update.

I am not familiar with the current edition however, and 4E was a clusterfudge that should not be called D&D and ended up with the lead designer getting fired from WotC and pretty much turned into a pariah of the tabletop gaming industry for that piece of bull droppings. I've heard he recently got hired by Games Workshop so he finally gets to work on the miniatures game he so desperately tried to turn D&D into, so at least that's something. But for years no gaming company would hire him.

The other creature types in D&D (at least in 3.5E) were Aberrations (unnatural horrors that were often extradimensional in origin, like the Beholder, the Aboleth, and the Mindflayer. Beholders are from the far realms of insanity, a place outside of reality, the Aboleth are survivors from the previous universe, and the Mindflayers are refugees from the far future.), Constructs (basically artifact creatures as a creature type), Fey (faeries, dryads, nymphs, satyrs, and their relatives), Dragons (exactly what it says on the tin, True dragons, drakes, linnorms, wyverns, and their kin), Elementals (although some put them with outsiders, creatures made of the elements), Giants (although many fold them together with humanoids as the only difference between the two are the size), Humanoids (humans, elves, orcs, goblins, etc.), Monstrous Humanoids (beast men, minotaurs, etc.), Oozes (slimes and whatnot), Outsiders (creatures from other planes, angels, devils, genies, demons, etc.), Plants (including things like fungus and treants), Vermin (insects, bugs, jellyfish, crabs, etc.), and Undead (reanimated dead things.)

I think that's all of the ones in 3E/3.5.
Last edited by Krishnath 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by brainface » 3 months ago

Ruiner wrote:
3 months ago
Tarrasque is such a flavor failure. That it dies to deathtouch is crazy. It should have some form of auto regen or indestructible at bare minimum. This should be an utterly terrifying huge creature. Also, not a dinosaur, it should have been "Creature - Tarrasque" or if they had to not give it its own creatures type then give it like "Titan Beast" or something.

Icingdeath is cool, although it sucks to have to put the dragon Drizzt killed in his own deck just so he can have one of his famous legendary Swords. I am totally going to do that though.
The war of the spark gods mechanic would've been great for him to emulate the "You drove it back, but it _will_ return" mechanics older editions had. Honestly it feels like they've made so much D&d tech over the years that they're just ignoring? Maybe commander decks will use party, level up, traps, etc?

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

Why is a bugbear a goblin but Flameskull not an elemental?
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Post by Guardman » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Why is a bugbear a goblin but Flameskull not an elemental?
Just because you are on fire doesn't make you an elemental. It just means you are on fire. :teach:

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Post by mars1123 » 3 months ago

The actual name for the dragon depicted in Icingdeath, Frost Tyrant is Ingeloakastimizilian, Icingdeath is just the name give it him by the local barbarian tribes.
BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Why is a bugbear a goblin but Flameskull not an elemental?


Because bugbears are a type of goblins and a Flameskull is an undead creature (that happens to be on fire) and not an elemental.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

mars1123 wrote:
3 months ago
Because bugbears are a type of goblins and a Flameskull is an undead creature (that happens to be on fire) and not an elemental.
The fire is clearly incorporated into the skull, flameskull cannot be reduced to either component. See Lightning Skelemental.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Why is a bugbear a goblin but Flameskull not an elemental?
Because the flameskull is an undead creature reanimated by foul magic and not a creature created from elemental fire?
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Why is a bugbear a goblin but Flameskull not an elemental?
Because the flameskull is an undead creature reanimated by foul magic and not a creature created from elemental fire?
It's created from both (magical) flame and (reanimated) skull. You can't make it without either, and you cannot separate it from either after creation.
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Post by mars1123 » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
mars1123 wrote:
3 months ago
Because bugbears are a type of goblins and a Flameskull is an undead creature (that happens to be on fire) and not an elemental.
The fire is clearly incorporated into the skull, flameskull cannot be reduced to either component. See Lightning Skelemental.
My guess is they were trying to match to D&D better where being an elemental means you are connected to/from one of the elemental planes, while a flame skull is a skull of dead magic user that another magic user has risen to serve as a guardian.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Why is a bugbear a goblin but Flameskull not an elemental?
Because the flameskull is an undead creature reanimated by foul magic and not a creature created from elemental fire?
It's created from both (magical) flame and (reanimated) skull. You can't make it without either, and you cannot separate it from either after creation.
Magical Flame =/= as elemental fire. There is a massive difference in D&D terms. Elemental Fire is literally from the elemental planes. Magical Fire is fire made by magical means.
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

Dawnbringer Cleric looks mildly interesting - I haven't been a fan of War Priest of Thune effects in the past, because only killing enchantments feels too narrow. Adding in a grave hate and lifegain option makes it a lot more appealing.

Circle of Dreams Druid is an interesting take on Elvish Archdruid - I don't think we've gotten Gaea's Cradle on a creature before. Obviously lots of potential, but also very color intensive.

Treasure Chest looks suspiciously silver-bordered. Fun effect, but also seems pretty inefficient.

Grazilaxx, Illithid Scholar is a weaker Edric, Spymaster of Trest, but also comes with a pseudo-gustcloak ability. Definitely has some implications for decks heavy on ETB effects. (also, a reminder that the combat damage trigger will apply once per opponent you hit)

(edit)Werewolf Pack Leader - it's a 3/3 for two mana with some significant upsides, including drawing cards. If this doesn't see play somewhere, then I officially have no idea how power level works.

Book of Vile Darkness - yessssssss. Inject Vecna goodness directly into my veinsssssssss. No Head of Vecna is slightly disappointing, but this looks sweet. Not necessarily good, since Kaldra is a meme, but definitely sweet.

Re: power level - I suspect some of the perception of a lower power level may just be that this is following MH2. We've also only seen one of the key mechanics so far (dungeons), which is going to read as a bit weak due to being parasitic. That said, a lot of the rares and mythics have read as misses for me.
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Post by Hermes_ » 3 months ago

Mookie wrote:
3 months ago

Xanathar, Guild Kingpin looks enormously fun (and also absolutely terrible to play via webcam). Or possibly miserable to play against. Either way, Sen Triplets // Future Sight in the command zone seems pretty solid, and also guaranteed to draw a ton of hate. I expect to run into a no-win-condition build of it at some point.
Paradox Haze cackles gleefully...

now i just thought of a convoluted mess with Copy Enchantment and haze and Xanathar......i feel bad :(
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 months ago

Power level doesn't seem really good, but the "flavor mechanics" and the references make the draft fodder a lot more enjoyable

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