Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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JovialJovian
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Post by JovialJovian » 4 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
4 months ago
pokken wrote:
4 months ago
Ah yes, Subtlety being the next piece of the Evoke cycle gives me basically certainty that the white one will put +1/+1 counters on something and I'll die a little inside
White deserves better. There's no reason they can't give it 'white-ramp' or some sort of permanent removal/exile effect. Hell, even a wipe would be reasonable and within white's identity.
The two we have so far replicate the effects of 3-mana common spells in their colors. Grief is Dark Inquiry, and Subtlety is No Escape (approximately, calling out planeswalkers on counterspells is still quite a recent development.), so I would expect the rest of the cycle to follow that pattern. Red will likely get Act of Treason, white actually has quite a lot of options among 3-mana commons, could be a combat trick, removal, or maybe "gain 6 life." Green will probably end up with Cultivate and become an instant staple.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
You may be cynical, but you are not alone in that cynicism. Whenever the RC has given them an inch, they have in time taken miles. Oloro gave us Markov, and the Origins flipwalkers gave us The Worldtree.
Do you mean Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge? The World Tree isn't even legendary...

While I'm not a fan of mechanics like eminence, I think it's easy to get sidetracked by focusing on innovation instead of the larger problem of generalized power creep. Markov might be dangerous (though tbh I've never found him THAT strong), but is he worse than a commander that "plays by the rules" like Golos or Korvold?

If you have a flavor problem with certain things being commanders (I could understand someone finding it weird that they're being led into battle by a sword) then that's fair enough, but I can't think of any flavor reason why a planeswalker wouldn't make a logical commander. And while pw commanders are obviously becoming a bit more common, they're still a drop in the bucket of the mountain of legends WotC prints every year at this point.

If bug boy ends up being OP (seems unlikely) I think it's a misdirect to fret over planeswalkers being commanders as though such an idea is inherently broken. Is Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath causing a lot of problems? Nah. So keep concerns over power level directed at the power level of the card imo.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

JovialJovian wrote:
4 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
4 months ago
pokken wrote:
4 months ago
Ah yes, Subtlety being the next piece of the Evoke cycle gives me basically certainty that the white one will put +1/+1 counters on something and I'll die a little inside
White deserves better. There's no reason they can't give it 'white-ramp' or some sort of permanent removal/exile effect. Hell, even a wipe would be reasonable and within white's identity.
The two we have so far replicate the effects of 3-mana common spells in their colors. Grief is Dark Inquiry, and Subtlety is No Escape (approximately, calling out planeswalkers on counterspells is still quite a recent development.), so I would expect the rest of the cycle to follow that pattern. Red will likely get Act of Treason, white actually has quite a lot of options among 3-mana commons, could be a combat trick, removal, or maybe "gain 6 life." Green will probably end up with Cultivate and become an instant staple.
This seems to ring pretty true - they don't seem to be exact, more similar. But yeah if it's aHealing Salve variant on a body part of my soul will die.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
You may be cynical, but you are not alone in that cynicism. Whenever the RC has given them an inch, they have in time taken miles. Oloro gave us Markov, and the Origins flipwalkers gave us The Worldtree.
Do you mean Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge? The World Tree isn't even legendary...

While I'm not a fan of mechanics like eminence, I think it's easy to get sidetracked by focusing on innovation instead of the larger problem of generalized power creep. Markov might be dangerous (though tbh I've never found him THAT strong), but is he worse than a commander that "plays by the rules" like Golos or Korvold?

If you have a flavor problem with certain things being commanders (I could understand someone finding it weird that they're being led into battle by a sword) then that's fair enough, but I can't think of any flavor reason why a planeswalker wouldn't make a logical commander. And while pw commanders are obviously becoming a bit more common, they're still a drop in the bucket of the mountain of legends WotC prints every year at this point.

If bug boy ends up being OP (seems unlikely) I think it's a misdirect to fret over planeswalkers being commanders as though such an idea is inherently broken. Is Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath causing a lot of problems? Nah. So keep concerns over power level directed at the power level of the card imo.
It's not a power-level issue per se, it's a variability issue, which effects how the format is played. With new MDFCs, there was even a thread on "target saturation": avoiding interaction by having your general and threats all be of an uncommon card type. At the extreme end, we saw this in Modern, where the variety, rather than the raw power, of threats devalued removal, and pushed the format in a much more linear, less interactive, direction. EDH has more versatile removal, but the more unconventional threats we see, the greater the pressure on people's removal suites, and the stronger the incentive to diminish interaction in favor of winning faster.

The nature of EDH shapes expectations not only with regard to one's own deckbuilding, but expectations of what it will go up against. The more those expectations are subverted, the more decks are undermined. There is a reason EDH supplanted 60-card casual as the leading casual format, and that is largely due to setting common, basic expectations in its structure. In this way, cards that manipulate the groundrules are more of a danger, because they erode the structure on which the format is built on.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
It's not a power-level issue per se, it's a variability issue, which effects how the format is played. With new MDFCs, there was even a thread on "target saturation": avoiding interaction by having your general and threats all be of an uncommon card type. At the extreme end, we saw this in Modern, where the variety, rather than the raw power, of threats devalued removal, and pushed the format in a much more linear, less interactive, direction. EDH has more versatile removal, but the more unconventional threats we see, the greater the pressure on people's removal suites, and the stronger the incentive to diminish interaction in favor of winning faster.

The nature of EDH shapes expectations not only with regard to one's own deckbuilding, but expectations of what it will go up against. The more those expectations are subverted, the more decks are undermined. There is a reason EDH supplanted 60-card casual as the leading casual format, and that is largely due to setting common, basic expectations in its structure. In this way, cards that manipulate the groundrules are more of a danger, because they erode the structure on which the format is built on.
This all seems like catastrophizing.

Target saturation has been a thing since long before MDFCs...hell, my Phelddaghrif deck intentionally denies nearly any targets, and certainly no creature targets worth targeting. That sort of thinking is definitely the sort of thing mostly done by min-maxers and not really a significant enough percentage of the meta to push things very far. In additional, flexible removal has always been important and useful. I guess it's maybe true that it's gotten slightly better, but I think it's pretty absurd to argue that the format is going to collapse because a tiny minority of players are considering target saturation, or that flexible removal is becoming slightly more useful relatively to creature removal.

As far as "oh no, people will stop running interaction" - I'd argue the trend within the time I've played commander is much more TOWARDS interaction than away from it. Back in 2012 or whatever, common wisdom was "only run board wipes for removal, targeted removal is bad for CA". These days, single-target answers are common in the most popular cards of every color. Even the Command Zone has commented on the trend towards interaction.

Commander can never fall prey to this sort of meta stagnation problems because there is not, and never will be, a defined meta. Fretting that in the future a major percentage of people will be running 100% enchantment, 100% planeswalker, etc decks is highly unlikely and a major waste of energy. The vast majority of commander deckbuilders haven't even heard of target saturation.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
This all seems like catastrophizing.
I'm not saying it will end the game, just make the format worse. It's a little, annoying thing when threat generals can't be engaged with through creature removal. It doesn't have to kill the format to be a net negative, especially as part of a larger phenomenon.
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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
This all seems like catastrophizing.
I'm not saying it will end the game, just make the format worse. It's a little, annoying thing when threat generals can't be engaged with through creature removal. It doesn't have to kill the format to be a net negative, especially as part of a larger phenomenon.
But Dirk isn't arguing it won't kill the format, the thesis is that it's not even going to be noticable enough to make things worse!

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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
I'm not saying it will end the game, just make the format worse.
erode the structure on which the format is built on.
Lol, what do you think happens when the foundations of something are eroded? It becomes a little worse? :P
It's a little, annoying thing when threat generals can't be engaged with through creature removal. It doesn't have to kill the format to be a net negative, especially as part of a larger phenomenon.
Well planeswalkers specifically can be interacted with pretty easily through creature combat, which most decks have built into them at much larger quantities than creature removal. Besides which, wotc is printing increasing numbers of "creature or planeswalker" removal every set. Personally I think it's fine, and even desirable, that different decks require different axes of interaction, instead of StP being the "answer any strategy" button.

Esika is really the only commander I can think of which is problematically powerful and also hard to interact with. But yeah, screw that card. (EDIT: hard to interact with in that particular way - obviously stuff like Narset, Enlightened Master is a prick too, but it "follows the rules")

Bug boy, on the other hand, seems pretty safe. I'd say keep the outrage focused on commanders that actually deserve it.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
But Dirk isn't arguing it won't kill the format, the thesis is that it's not even going to be noticable enough to make things worse!
"oh no, people will stop running interaction!" certainly seemed like such, especially when my actual point (some people will run less interaction) was far more nuanced. As for it being noticeable, I've sat with dead removal in hand while Prismatic Bridge vomited planeswalkers, so I've noticed this already. Planeswalkers are already the most frustrating card type, in my view, so an explicit rules change that lets WotC put more of them in the CZ cannot bode well.
DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
Lol, what do you think happens when the foundations of something are eroded? It becomes a little worse?
Yes, often. It becomes a little worse, steadily, often over a long period of time. There's a bridge around where I am where the foundations are getting eroded. It's not going to suddenly collapse one day, but it's closed more often for maintenance, it sucks up more taxes each year, the weight limits are probably going down for it, etc. It's become a little worse.
Last edited by BeneTleilax 4 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

Personally I've got no issues with Grist, the Hunger Tide in the CZ. It's just another walker, not even a particularly strong one.

In the 99 though, it seems like making it work would mean heavy dredge, which can be pretty laborious to play against. That's gonna vary, but it certainly doesn't seem to be doing anything I'm particularly worried about. Frankly there's not enough good insects for that deck to be more than a gimmick.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
Yes, often. It becomes a little worse, steadily, often over a long period of time. There's a bridge around where I am where the foundations are getting eroded. It's not going to suddenly collapse one day, but it's closed more often for maintenance, it sucks up more taxes each year, the weight limits are probably going down for it, etc. It's become a little worse.
...because without maintenance, it would collapse.

If someone says that something is being eroded from the foundation as a metaphor, they're not talking about increased bridge maintenance. They're saying it's becoming destabilized and is at risk of collapse. If that's not what you think about this situation, then fine, cool, but maybe be a little more cautious with your metaphors.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

okay i have two question now.
is grist on the field after becoming an insect? if not There is really no use to the first ability AT ALL. Aside from making it a creature. You can't block or attack with it.
If it does go to the battlefield, well then you have your planeswalker there for free since it does nullify the PW aspect, just adds being an insect creature to it.

This is gonna be a ruling nightmare.

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Post by Mookie » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
okay i have two question now.
is grist on the field after becoming an insect? if not There is really no use to the first ability AT ALL. Aside from making it a creature. You can't block or attack with it.
If it does go to the battlefield, well then you have your planeswalker there for free since it does nullify the PW aspect, just adds being an insect creature to it.

This is gonna be a ruling nightmare.
Grist is just a planeswalker on the battlefield. In other zones, it also counts as a creature, so you can recur it with Reanimate or fetch it with Green Sun's Zenith.

As for other stuff.... Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp is interesting. There haven't been any new modular cards printed in ages, but since it's apparently the R/W theme in MH2, I'm not going to complain about it having support in the command zone too. Having an artifact sac outlet (or destroy outlet, I guess) is certainly interesting - Osgir, the Reconstructor is probably better overall if you aren't doing modular shenanigans, but a one mana evasive body that gets extra +1/+1 counters isn't totally irrelevant.

Chef's Kiss is an interesting spin on Wild Ricochet, but no idea if it will actually be worth running. Still, could be interesting - I've found Wild Ricochet to be a bit too expensive, but I'm not sure how good the random targeting will be.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

Obviously we talk about EDH here, but in non-singleton formats,Grist, the Hunger Tide's first ability means if you mill a Grist, the Hunger Tide with his first ability, you can go again.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
If someone says that something is being eroded from the foundation as a metaphor, they're not talking about increased bridge maintenance. They're saying it's becoming destabilized and is at risk of collapse. If that's not what you think about this situation, then fine, cool, but maybe be a little more cautious with your metaphors.
It is being destabilized. The idea of generals as creatures, which I consider a foundation of the format and has continued to enjoy broad support through a series of debates in the community, is being destabilized. Currently, WotC can only put Planeswalkers in the CZ through double-faced cards, which require mechanical backing and some reasonable creature element or through EDH precons and such, which are subject to heightened review by the RC during development. This rule change would allow them to make planeswalker generals in any set, with no further input by the RC outside of bans and minimal mechanical baggage on the cards themselves.

I'm not also not really talking about Grist, I'm talking about the rules change in this format that would allow it to be a general. If it's a rules change only for Grist, then I find it quite inelegant, and against the RC's philosophy of carving out rules exceptions for individual cards. If it is not, then it should be discussed as a broader rules change for the format, outside the power of an individual card. It's not a slippery slope to say that a change to one of the fundamental rules of the format is a change to the fundamental rules of the format.
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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
okay i have two question now.
is grist on the field after becoming an insect? if not There is really no use to the first ability AT ALL. Aside from making it a creature. You can't block or attack with it.
If it does go to the battlefield, well then you have your planeswalker there for free since it does nullify the PW aspect, just adds being an insect creature to it.

This is gonna be a ruling nightmare.
Grist is just a planeswalker on the battlefield. In other zones, it also counts as a creature, so you can recur it with Reanimate or fetch it with Green Sun's Zenith.
In addition to the above, there are some other neat things about it too.

In hand, you can use Aether Vial to put it onto the battlefield (probably more of a Legacy relevant action but possible in other formats).

As a creature on the stack, certain counterspells don't work on it.

In hand, certain discard effects like Duress can't touch it.

In the grave, Necrotic Ooze gets to utilize loyalty abilities from this card, which is pretty cool I think. Starting at 0 loyalty will take a little while to get anywhere, but it is neat.

In the grave, Body Double can clone it.

I'm sure there are other cool things you can do relating to it's special property.

None of this is really all that complicated, but it makes it a pretty unique and interesting card as a result in my opinion. I don't think Grist is exactly going to tear up and dominate games either.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

Ruiner wrote:
4 months ago
In addition to the above, there are some other neat things about it too.

In hand, you can use Aether Vial to put it onto the battlefield (probably more of a Legacy relevant action but possible in other formats).

As a creature on the stack, certain counterspells don't work on it.

In hand, certain discard effects like Duress can't touch it.

In the grave, Necrotic Ooze gets to utilize loyalty abilities from this card, which is pretty cool I think. Starting at 0 loyalty will take a little while to get anywhere, but it is neat.

In the grave, Body Double can clone it.

I'm sure there are other cool things you can do relating to it's special property.

None of this is really all that complicated, but it makes it a pretty unique and interesting card as a result in my opinion. I don't think Grist is exactly going to tear up and dominate games either.
It can do all those cool things without being in the command zone. In fact, it does them all better in the 99. I like this card in the 99, and have said as much previously. I don't like a special rules carveout that would let WotC print planeswalkers (or other card types, but probably more planeswalkers) into the CZ without review by the Rules Committee.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
It is being destabilized. The idea of generals as creatures, which I consider a foundation of the format and has continued to enjoy broad support through a series of debates in the community, is being destabilized.
I mean, that hasn't been a requirement since 2014 iirc.
double-faced cards, which require mechanical backing and some reasonable creature element
idk why this matters. People playing Valki, God of Lies // Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor are never casting the front half of the card. For all intents and purposes (outside of cards like Raise Dead, which work almost equivalently for Bug Boy anyway) it's a planeswalker commander.
through EDH precons and such, which are subject to heightened review by the RC during development.
Lol is that actually true? If so, they've sure been lying down on the job. A huge percentage of the format's most obnoxious commanders have spawned from precons. Again, I have a hard time seeing why that would matter except insofar as you're motivated to establish this as a new scary problem when it's not.

Also, Rowan Kenrith would have a word.
This rule change would allow them to make planeswalker generals in any set, with no further input by the RC outside of bans and minimal mechanical baggage on the cards themselves.
I really, really doubt they're going to do this frequently. I think it's likely this will be the only time since it's such a weird ability, and because the justification is pretty clearly so that it can trigger itself, which presumably won't be true for the vast majority of future pws. MDFCs are something they've shown they will continue to do, and use them as a way to push the boundaries of what a commander can be, and if they want to do more pw commanders in the future I think they're far, far, FAR more likely to do MDFCs than the bug boy mechanic.
the rules change in this format that would allow it to be a general.
Did anyone know what rule determined his eligibility for being a commander before today? Can I get a show of hands?

Personally I consider myself pretty expert on the rules and I definitely didn't know. I doubt anyone in this thread could have given a definitive, well-justified answer.
against the RC's philosophy
my understanding is that this is a rules change to the comp rules and how types are determined outside the game, not within the RC's purview. I could be wrong on that.
It's not a slippery slope to say that a change to one of the fundamental rules of the format is a change to the fundamental rules of the format.
Time travel back to 2014 and bring it up then. :parrot:

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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
Ruiner wrote:
4 months ago
In addition to the above, there are some other neat things about it too.

In hand, you can use Aether Vial to put it onto the battlefield (probably more of a Legacy relevant action but possible in other formats).

As a creature on the stack, certain counterspells don't work on it.

In hand, certain discard effects like Duress can't touch it.

In the grave, Necrotic Ooze gets to utilize loyalty abilities from this card, which is pretty cool I think. Starting at 0 loyalty will take a little while to get anywhere, but it is neat.

In the grave, Body Double can clone it.

I'm sure there are other cool things you can do relating to it's special property.

None of this is really all that complicated, but it makes it a pretty unique and interesting card as a result in my opinion. I don't think Grist is exactly going to tear up and dominate games either.
It can do all those cool things without being in the command zone. In fact, it does them all better in the 99. I like this card in the 99, and have said as much previously. I don't like a special rules carveout that would let WotC print planeswalkers (or other card types, but probably more planeswalkers) into the CZ without review by the Rules Committee.
Wasn't really engaging in the "Anti-PW Commanders vs. Pro-PW Commanders" discussion, just adding onto the "what does that first ability even do" discussion.

(Personally, I've run a Nahiri deck for many years now and have never had an issue with the inherant concept of PW Commanders, but that isn't what I was addressing anyway, and I'm not looking to try to debate.)


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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
Time travel back to 2014 and bring it up then. :parrot:
So you and others could say I was catastrophizing if I claimed that they would print planeswalker generals outside of precons? Just because they have chipped away at the general-as-creature rule constantly for years, each time acting as precedent for the next, does not make it unreasonable to oppose the next strike of the chisel. I specifically said that they printed planeswalker generals in the precons, so acting like I was unaware of that isn't exactly the epic own that you seem to think it is.

When I am talking about a rules change, I am talking about the specific rules change that would allow Grist and others to be commanders, which they currently cannot be under the rules of the format. If this is the same as Tibalt, then why is this not a MDFC legendary 1/1 insect with a planeswalker back face? If this is the same as Daretti, then why does it not say "Grist can be your commander" anywhere?
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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
Time travel back to 2014 and bring it up then. :parrot:
So you and others could say I was catastrophizing if I claimed that they would print planeswalker generals outside of precons? Just because they have chipped away at the general-as-creature rule constantly for years, each time acting as precedent for the next, does not make it unreasonable to oppose the next strike of the chisel. I specifically said that they printed planeswalker generals in the precons, so acting like I was unaware of that isn't exactly the epic own that you seem to think it is.

When I am talking about a rules change, I am talking about the specific rules change that would allow Grist and others to be commanders, which they currently cannot be under the rules of the format. If this is the same as Tibalt, then why is this not a MDFC legendary 1/1 insect with a planeswalker back face? If this is the same as Daretti, then why does it not say "Grist can be your commander" anywhere?
"Grist and others" is a heck of a supposition, since, again, this is literally a single card in a high complexity set that they almost certainly are not going to use in anything resembling a standard set. I'd frankly be shocked if they use Grist's ability again in the next 5 years *anywhere*.

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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 4 months ago

Yeah I don't see this being the norm for planeswalkers. They tend to wanna give each one its own "identity" and I see this being more of Grist's thing than overall change and would likely only be seen when we see Grist. So far I'm guessing is Grist is just the one bug that can form a worm that walks body from bugs on other plane, but loses it when it planeswalks which is reflected in that until it comes to the battlefield (on a plane) its just the one bug.
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
If this is the same as Daretti, then why does it not say "Grist can be your commander" anywhere?
Without wanting to seem like I'm piling on, the simple answer is this set isn't designed with Commander in mind. It's really just intended as a neat way of playing 4 of a legendary in 60-card formats.

Honestly it's not the biggest stretch that it's capable of being a commander. It's legendary already, in some zones it's a creature, it's like 75% of the way there already. I would never have even known about the infinitesimal fine-print rules needing to be changed in order to get it over the line without having asked Wizard for clarification. I don't see that it's that big of a deal myself, it's not going to degrade the format any further than other PW commanders have. To my mind the only two that are overly busted to play against are Teferi, Temporal Archmage and Aminatou, the Fateshifter, the rest are fine and of reasonable power level.

Anyway, I've no horse in this race, so that's just my $0.02.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
So you and others could say I was claiming the sky was falling if I claimed that they would print planeswalker generals outside of precons?
nah, I would have agreed it was likely tbh. Again though I don't see why the distinction matters.
Just because they have chipped away at the general-as-creature rule constantly for years, each time acting as precedent for the next, does not mean it unreasonable to oppose the next strike of the chisel.
...but you seem to be fine with precon PWCs, battlebond PWCs, MDFC PWCs, etc. This seems to me like you're fine with the massive cleave that was MDFCs and 2014 walkers, but freaking out over a tiny nick with this guy.
I specifically said that they printed planeswalker generals in the precons, so acting like I was unaware of that isn't exactly the epic own that you seem to think it is.
if you're referring to the party parrot emoji, I just like it. I don't need a reason.

Again this seems like a way way smaller deal than those. I question your sense of proportion, not your memory (although I think you did forget the supertwins).
When I am talking about a rules change, I am talking about the specific rules change that would allow Grist and others to be commanders, which they currently cannot be under the rules of the format. If this is the same as Tibalt, then why is this not a MDFC legendary 1/1 insect with a planeswalker back face? If this is the same as Daretti, then why does it not say "Grist can be your commander" anywhere?
Lol....yes....it's a slightly different implementation....but the impact is almost exactly the same...So why care? Do you actually want a 1/1 bug mdfc? That's really important to you?
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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