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TheGildedGoose
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 3 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
3 months ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 months ago
Keep your shirt on. Why on Earth would Garth be banned? Because he's in the command zone and combos?
Primarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.

and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.

this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
Okay, and? Power level is not a banlist criteria. Next.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

He's five color Ghave.
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Post by Lifeless » 3 months ago

They print numerous legends that are part of easy to assemble infinite combos. There's nothing special about him in that regard.

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Post by Gashnaw » 3 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
3 months ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 months ago
Keep your shirt on. Why on Earth would Garth be banned? Because he's in the command zone and combos?
Primarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.

and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.

this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
Okay, and? Power level is not a banlist criteria. Next.
...
...
...
Power level has been the ONLY criteria for the ban list. I mean they BANNED Paradox Engine for a reason.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
3 months ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
3 months ago


Primarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.

and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.

this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
Okay, and? Power level is not a banlist criteria. Next.
...
...
...
Power level has been the ONLY criteria for the ban list. I mean they BANNED Paradox Engine for a reason.
Paradox Engine was banned because it would bust almost anything you put it with and took over games, not only in terms of ending them but dominating time spent on one person's gameplay over the rest of the table. I might hate Garth One-Eye (why %$#% Garth*? What a stupid design), but these two cards are not comparable. Dollars to donuts he stays in the format. I won't enjoy playing against him but he'll stay.

*edit - Googled the lore, still hate it.
Last edited by toctheyounger 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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TheGildedGoose
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 3 months ago

lol what

Here are the various criteria the RC uses to determine if something is banworthy:
Cause severe resource imbalances
Allow players to win out of nowhere
Prevent players from contributing to the game in a meaningful way
Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic
Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck building
Interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format or the specific rules of Commander
Lead to repetitive game play
Garth is fine. You're living in a fantasy world.

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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 3 months ago

Garth is not bannable truth quite a bit of you don't realize is Deadeye Navigator is really only one that can do it with him entering untapped and immediately come back and still have mana available.

(all cards are just examples)

Emiel the Blessed is the only other one that can do it but equires Heartstone effects to do it.

some flickers make him enter tapped Eldrazi Displacer

some require tapping them Nephalia Smuggler

won't come back till end step Roon of the Hidden Realm

the one shot flickers and you need his Regrowth part as well Cloudshift

to much cmc required Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel

And can only be activated once without flicker effects Aminatou, the Fateshifter

and even with no problems with that Garth cost to cast with summoning sickness and all the pieces have to be alive and be able to activate him immediately lots of hoops to jump and quite a fragile infinite

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 months ago

marioguy3 wrote:
3 months ago
Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp is a cool little card with an awesome first activated ability. It might provide a "glimmer" into the future of modular in competitive formats.
I like the design but she(?) looks a little weak. But a cost voltron looks fun

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 months ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 months ago
marioguy3 wrote:
3 months ago
Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp is a cool little card with an awesome first activated ability. It might provide a "glimmer" into the future of modular in competitive formats.
I like the design but she(?) looks a little weak. But a cost voltron looks fun
might switch line slinger for the bug
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Post by WizardMN » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
WizardMN wrote:
3 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
I might just have to build Zabaz, here's hoping for more modular support!
I was thinking the same thing. It seems like a cool Boros general. It still relies on combat (though there is probably some decent combo potential for people that like that) but I have started getting kind of down on Gisela so I might try to scrap her and try something new with Zabaz. It looks pretty interesting at the very least and it is nice to see different things like this.
The recursion suite of RW artifacts means it should be more resilient in the face of removal than most Boros combat strategies, and Zabaz is cheap to boot.
That is probably true. And even things like Ichor Wellspring and Mycosynth Wellspring start to have reasonable value. I will probably look more into it this weekend to see what I can come up with.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

I think it needs more modular cards to really come into its own, but they don't need to be great. I'd play a modular bear in that deck in heartbeat, for instance.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

Subtlety. Venser, Shaper Savant got some competition for that control game. This is pretty strong with a shell able to repeatedly ETB it.
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 months ago

I feel like Grist, the Hunger Tide is wizards doing a test-case to see how they can get planeswalker commanders without resorting to "This card can be your commander."
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.

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Post by Legend » 3 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 months ago
Just saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
I literally zoomed in on the art to make sure it didn't depict a cowboy.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Lol this conversation is basically just Gashnaw repeatedly falling down a flight of stairs, loudly declaring that he's not falling down a flight of stairs, and then falling down more stairs.

Garth's design is weird but I'd be shocked if he was really problematic compared to other things that already exist.

Bug boy seems like a really boring deck tbh since you're kinda incentivised to just pack 60+ bugs in there even if you rarely plan to cast them. Idk, seems pretty linear tbh.

Storm ooze...eh, doubt it'll get much play, which is fine. The fewer time-monopolising decks out there, the better.

Modular bug is cool, though it's probably impossible to beat Marchesa, the Black Rose as a modular enabler.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

Legend wrote:
3 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 months ago
Just saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
I literally zoomed in on the art to make sure it didn't depict a cowboy.
Yeah, something about it just lacks subtlety to me, in both the design and the flavour. Clearly I'm not familiar with his place in the lore, so I don't know if it's a good fit or not, but there's just no part of the card that appeals to me whatsoever.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 months ago

JovialJovian wrote:
3 months ago
I feel like Grist, the Hunger Tide is wizards doing a test-case to see how they can get planeswalker commanders without resorting to "This card can be your commander."
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.
It's 100% not that. It's a cool design with a *ton* of other interesting interactions in Modern. Making it so it works as a commander is a side effect of that, and one a lot of people assumed upon seeing it (as evidenced by all the questions), so making it work that way was more intuitive than not doing so. If it was designed as a commander on-ramp, it'd... probably be actually good as a commander? Where right now it feels far more "cute" than good.

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Post by Lifeless » 3 months ago

IIRC Garth kills someone with a Mirror Universe at one point, maybe even in the climax of one of the books. I kind of wish he would make one of those for flavor reasons alone.

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Post by JovialJovian » 3 months ago

Garth One-Eye is the "character that first appeared in a novel." That novel was in 1994, and his only other appearance was in a second novel, also in 1994. He's never appeared on a card, not even mentioned in flavor text, so if you weren't following the backstory outside of the cards back then, you'll probably have never heard of Garth.

For the handful of people who remember him, an exciting appearance, for everyone else, it's just a bit strange. His ability is a cute callback to his being from 1994, as all of his spells are from Alpha.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 months ago
Legend wrote:
3 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 months ago
Just saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
I literally zoomed in on the art to make sure it didn't depict a cowboy.
Yeah, something about it just lacks subtlety to me, in both the design and the flavour. Clearly I'm not familiar with his place in the lore, so I don't know if it's a good fit or not, but there's just no part of the card that appeals to me whatsoever.
Garth is just a Tiffany/Smith Problem-type name, actually ancient Anglo-Saxon (and possibly Welsh). Personally, I'm fine with Magic stepping into Tiffany Problems so long as they do it seriously (ie: not putting Garth in a cowboy hat). Refusal to do so leads to a steadily contracting ring of "acceptable fantasy names" until only the most absurd names are "believable" within the genre. This isn't a slippery slope even, this happened in the 80's.
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Last edited by BeneTleilax 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 months ago
JovialJovian wrote:
3 months ago
I feel like Grist, the Hunger Tide is wizards doing a test-case to see how they can get planeswalker commanders without resorting to "This card can be your commander."
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.
It's 100% not that. It's a cool design with a *ton* of other interesting interactions in Modern. Making it so it works as a commander is a side effect of that, and one a lot of people assumed upon seeing it (as evidenced by all the questions), so making it work that way was more intuitive than not doing so. If it was designed as a commander on-ramp, it'd... probably be actually good as a commander? Where right now it feels far more "cute" than good.
I disagree. If I were designing a card to test the waters, I would not make it an obviously powerful commander. This isn't about convincing players to use planeswalkers as commanders at this stage, its about testing the boundaries with the RC, the pushed commander-viable planeswalkers would come later on.

I may be cynical, but Wizards has given me many reasons to assume the worst from them over the past year, so I'm on-alert for their shenanigans.

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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Ah yes, Subtlety being the next piece of the Evoke cycle gives me basically certainty that the white one will put +1/+1 counters on something and I'll die a little inside

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Garth is just a Tiffany/Smith Problem-type name, actually ancient Anglo-Saxon (and possibly Welsh). Personally, I'm fine with Magic stepping into Tiffany Problems so long as they do it seriously (ie: not putting Garth in a cowboy hat). Refusal to do so leads to a steadily contracting ring of "acceptable fantasy names" until only the most absurd names are "believable" within the genre. This isn't a slippery slope even, this happened in the 80's.
Yeah this one is 100% on me. I hate it but that's because the only other Garths I know from popular culture are in Wayne's World and Garth Marengi's Darkplace. It makes it seem more farcical than intended. But yes, I agree, not all names need to sound epic and verbose to evoke fantasy; my favourite series, the Malazan books, a lot of the characters are known by stupid derogatory nicknames - there's Gullstream, Blend, Greymane, Braven Tooth, Temper, Pores, Kindly (and that last is definitely a joke).

The card just seems...weird and doesn't really sit in a place that I like mostly. It isn't just the name, although I won't lie, that is part of it, although as above, that's baggage I'm bringing to the table myself.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Ah yes, Subtlety being the next piece of the Evoke cycle gives me basically certainty that the white one will put +1/+1 counters on something and I'll die a little inside
White deserves better. There's no reason they can't give it 'white-ramp' or some sort of permanent removal/exile effect. Hell, even a wipe would be reasonable and within white's identity.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

JovialJovian wrote:
3 months ago
I may be cynical, but Wizards has given me many reasons to assume the worst from them over the past year, so I'm on-alert for their shenanigans.
You may be cynical, but you are not alone in that cynicism. Whenever the RC has given them an inch, they have in time taken miles. Oloro gave us Markov, and the Origins flipwalkers gave us Prismatic Bridge. Even in this thread, you can see the lineage from scattered easter eggs, to Twilight Sparkle, to Rick, Steadfast Leader, to any expectation of tone or flavor consistency being regarded as foolish optimism at best.
Last edited by BeneTleilax 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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