Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

Again, the idea that Garth might get banned when things like Golos don't is simply laughable.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

Outcryqq wrote:
4 months ago
@Gashnaw
As the WOTC staff indicated above, under the current rules, Grist cannot be your commander, but they anticipate a new rule which will make it so. I suspect the rule could be something as simple as "if a card would be a legendary creature if it started a game in the command zone, then it can be your commander". Grist has a character-defining ability that makes it a creature, so the only issue that CDAs aren't checked during deck construction. Nothing about your comparison to Elbrus, the Binding Blade // Withengar Unbound; Elbrus does not have a CDA making it a creature anywhere else.
Just a minor correction: Grist, the Hunger Tide *technically* does not have a CDA (though it is in a similar class of abilities), because it is conditional. In order for an ability to be Characteristic Defining, it has to function in *all* zones, not all but one. If that exception did not exist, Theros style gods would have a rough time, as their ability that makes them not a creature would work before the game even starts, and that's not the interaction that's wanted. Otherwise, you're spot on, it's just that Elbrus et al don't have an *ability* that makes them a creature before the game starts, whether it's a CDA or not should not end up being important.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago


Demonic pact has modes, Garth does not.
The formatting matters not. So long as the phrase "that hasn't been chosen" appears in the text, the same rule applies.
I am pretty sure it is not the same, but if it is, Get ready to see him get banned.
I'm a betting man. I'd offer 10000 to 1 odds that you're wrong on both of those bold claims. In lieu of monies, how about this instead: if I'm wrong on either count, I'll quote this whole debate, add enough context to explain your victory in fair terms, and make it my permanent signature on this site as an eternal testament to your godlike prescience and total right-ness. If you're wrong though, you pony up your own signature as an eternal testament to your own silliness.

How about it? Do we have a friendly wager?
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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

Garth is neat as a casual toolbox. I don't see him as being the raw powerhouse 5 color commander like Golos or even Kenrith or Najeela.

You can generate infinite mana from Black Lotus copies with Dead Eye Navigator and then cast however many Braingeysers you need to draw out the rest of the table. That isn't super quick when your commander is WUBRG and requires some other hoops to jump through. I don't think this is going to be super reliable or oppressive.

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
4 months ago
Keep your shirt on. Why on Earth would Garth be banned? Because he's in the command zone and combos?
Primarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.

and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.

this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

Just saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.

I don't even care about combo potential. It won't be banned on account, there's plenty of stuff thats worse. It just makes me recoil on several axes.
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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
Outcryqq wrote:
4 months ago
@Gashnaw
As the WOTC staff indicated above, under the current rules, Grist cannot be your commander, but they anticipate a new rule which will make it so. I suspect the rule could be something as simple as "if a card would be a legendary creature if it started a game in the command zone, then it can be your commander". Grist has a character-defining ability that makes it a creature, so the only issue that CDAs aren't checked during deck construction. Nothing about your comparison to Elbrus, the Binding Blade // Withengar Unbound; Elbrus does not have a CDA making it a creature anywhere else.
Just a minor correction: Grist, the Hunger Tide *technically* does not have a CDA (though it is in a similar class of abilities), because it is conditional. In order for an ability to be Characteristic Defining, it has to function in *all* zones, not all but one. If that exception did not exist, Theros style gods would have a rough time, as their ability that makes them not a creature would work before the game even starts, and that's not the interaction that's wanted. Otherwise, you're spot on, it's just that Elbrus et al don't have an *ability* that makes them a creature before the game starts, whether it's a CDA or not should not end up being important.
Ah yes, but the gods are creatures in deck construction, Grist is not. Gods have a CREATURE type, Grist does not. There is no characteristic of the card that makes it legal as commander.

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
4 months ago
Just saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
Garth is the protagonist of the MtG novel Arena. There's an article about him on the WotC MtG site, where the card was spoiled.

I remember reading the novel, but I remember next to nothing about the events of the novel.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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maeos
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Post by maeos » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Primarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.

and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.

this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
any combos that garth will use arent easy to assemble. garth is no different from someone like tazri, first sliver or any 5c combo commander. if you think that garth is an issue then you need to play against the more problematic commanders.

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago


The formatting matters not. So long as the phrase "that hasn't been chosen" appears in the text, the same rule applies.
I am pretty sure it is not the same, but if it is, Get ready to see him get banned.
I'm a betting man. I'd offer 10000 to 1 odds that you're wrong on both of those bold claims. In lieu of monies, how about this instead: if I'm wrong on either count, I'll quote this whole debate, add enough context to explain your victory in fair terms, and make it my permanent signature on this site as an eternal testament to your godlike prescience and total right-ness. If you're wrong though, you pony up your own signature as an eternal testament to your own silliness.

How about it? Do we have a friendly wager?
not really, mainly because i cant be bothered to figure out how to add a signature. If you want to do that, by all means, go ahead. I won't argue that I was wrong if I am. If i am right, well at least i will know I was. Don't care if no one else believes i was.

(Kinda like how I called that Pokemon gen 3 remakes would wait till gen 6 (Even though everyone was calling it for gen 5.) and Gen 4 would wait till gen 9. I was wrong about gen 9, but since gen 8 does not even have the gen 4 starters, I am calling it gen 8.5 Close enough.)

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 4 months ago

I heavily dislike the new design tendencies of copying permanents as tokens. Its a mess to do it in paper magic!

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

duducrash wrote:
4 months ago
I heavily dislike the new design tendencies of copying permanents as tokens. Its a mess to do it in paper magic!
Copying cards, if it was a permanent it would have to be on the battelfield to begin wit, and a couple of the cards aren't even a permanent card to begin with.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Ah yes, but the gods are creatures in deck construction, Grist is not. Gods have a CREATURE type, Grist does not. There is no characteristic of the card that makes it legal as commander.
Yes, there is. Literally the first line, and how it functions, makes him a creature card. He will be a creature card in the graveyard, on the stack, in exile, in the library, in the command zone, and (most importantly) will be a creature card for deck construction purposes.

This is a brand new ability and this ability, Wizards (and maybe the RC) has decided will function appropriately for him to be a commander. Perhaps you don't like it (I am not a huge fan of it) but the discussion about whether he is a viable commander is long past. There are tweets from at least 3 different people from Wizards and the RC that says he will be eligible to be a commander. If you don't like it, and don't like it enough, you will need to petition them to change the (upcoming) rule to not allow him but the rule will allow him to be eligible as a commander.

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Post by caulkwrangler » 4 months ago

< SNIP >

Garth is baller but he's not sweeping the postseason, like Dominique he's a human highlight reel. Grist is definitely Chris Webber. Aeve is the Alex English Nuggets.
Please keep things civil, there's no reason for insults

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

@Gashnaw

That's disappointing, I thought it would be good fun. But please don't point to not being able to figure out how to add a signature as your partial excuse; the web designers really did a bang up job on the site's UI. Look for "edit signature" within your profile settings and you'll find it's very easy to add/remove/edit at any time.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 months ago
This is a brand new ability and this ability, Wizards (and maybe the RC) has decided will function appropriately for him to be a commander.
Between it being a creature while not on the battlefield and having the legendary supertype that covers it right?

Honestly not the biggest deal ever, I'm not hugely sure why this is the big deal it's being made out to be.
caulkwrangler wrote:
4 months ago
Garth is baller but he's not sweeping the postseason, like Dominique he's a human highlight reel. Grist is definitely Chris Webber. Aeve is the Alex English Nuggets.
Not a single clue what any of this means. Presumably it's some sort of sports reference, which means nothing to me.
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Post by caulkwrangler » 4 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
4 months ago
Not a single clue what any of this means. Presumably it's some sort of sports reference, which means nothing to me.
Good.

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

So, Chef's Kiss is just wonderfully fun. Not being able to pick what it targets makes it less technically good, but I still like it. This is the kind of chaos I can embrace.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
4 months ago
WizardMN wrote:
4 months ago
This is a brand new ability and this ability, Wizards (and maybe the RC) has decided will function appropriately for him to be a commander.
Between it being a creature while not on the battlefield and having the legendary supertype that covers it right?

Honestly not the biggest deal ever, I'm not hugely sure why this is the big deal it's being made out to be.
The main point of contention is "when" the ability starts applying. Partners, for example, specifically state in the rules that "Partner" applies before the game begins. And obviously "This <Planeswalker> can be your commander" does as well. So it isn't like it is without precedent. It is just weird. While not a CDA, it is exceptionally close to one and CDAs only function while a game is occurring. That is, working while the object is outside the game only matters if a game exists. Or, at least, there is no other scenario where, if they did apply before the game began, it would actually matter.

I do agree that it really isn't a big deal. It is a clever (if, imo, inelegant) solution to allowing more planeswalkers as commanders. I am not a fan of walkers as commanders as a whole but a few here and there are fine and this is ultimately not really something worth getting upset about.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

JWK wrote:
4 months ago
So, Chef's Kiss is just wonderfully fun. Not being able to pick what it targets makes it less technically good, but I still like it. This is the kind of chaos I can embrace.
*plays Hive Mind and steps away as to avoid table flip*
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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Ah yes, but the gods are creatures in deck construction, Grist is not. Gods have a CREATURE type, Grist does not. There is no characteristic of the card that makes it legal as commander.
Yes, there is. Literally the first line, and how it functions, makes him a creature card. He will be a creature card in the graveyard, on the stack, in exile, in the library, in the command zone, and (most importantly) will be a creature card for deck construction purposes.

This is a brand new ability and this ability, Wizards (and maybe the RC) has decided will function appropriately for him to be a commander. Perhaps you don't like it (I am not a huge fan of it) but the discussion about whether he is a viable commander is long past. There are tweets from at least 3 different people from Wizards and the RC that says he will be eligible to be a commander. If you don't like it, and don't like it enough, you will need to petition them to change the (upcoming) rule to not allow him but the rule will allow him to be eligible as a commander.
And the first line of the god cards make them illegal to be commanders, unless you have the perquisites. gods are Legendary Enchantment CREATURE. there is no Characteristic on Grist that makes him a legal commander. There is a static ability, which does not take effect until game begins.

I may make a deck with him if the rules does take effect (They have only hinted at it, not promised it. Sheldon however is not a subtle guy, so its pretty much a guarantee, which annoys me. Should not have even been a question.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

I might just have to build Zabaz, here's hoping for more modular support!
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Post by WizardMN » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
I might just have to build Zabaz, here's hoping for more modular support!
I was thinking the same thing. It seems like a cool Boros general. It still relies on combat (though there is probably some decent combo potential for people that like that) but I have started getting kind of down on Gisela so I might try to scrap her and try something new with Zabaz. It looks pretty interesting at the very least and it is nice to see different things like this.

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Post by marioguy3 » 4 months ago

Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp is a cool little card with an awesome first activated ability. It might provide a "glimmer" into the future of modular in competitive formats.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
I might just have to build Zabaz, here's hoping for more modular support!
I was thinking the same thing. It seems like a cool Boros general. It still relies on combat (though there is probably some decent combo potential for people that like that) but I have started getting kind of down on Gisela so I might try to scrap her and try something new with Zabaz. It looks pretty interesting at the very least and it is nice to see different things like this.
The recursion suite of RW artifacts means it should be more resilient in the face of removal than most Boros combat strategies, and Zabaz is cheap to boot.
Decks: Feather, Judith, Varina, Zabaz

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