Unreleased and New Card Discussion

BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 months ago

I love Grist, but I really hope it doesn't become a possible general. This format has too many Planeswalker generals already, in my view, and card-type changing trickery just gives WotC another backdoor to weasel noncreatures into the command zone.
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Post by WizardMN » 4 months ago

Lifeless wrote:
4 months ago
So with Garth what zone is the copied card in when it's created?
Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
Guardman wrote:
4 months ago
maeos wrote:
4 months ago
@Guardman i asked on magicjudges.org and they said as of right now grist cannot be a commander
I asked a judge friend of mine real quick and he basically said "We are waiting for clarification" and just sort of left it at that (Though I could almost see him rubbing his forehead through the text).
Yeah, the fast answer is "probably not?", but it's not yet definitive. It basically comes down to "does its characteristic defining ability function outside the game itself, or is it only a planeswalker during deckbuilding?" ...I suppose a followup question would be "can you run it in a deck with Umori, the Collector as a companion and a bunch of creatures?"
Looks like Tabak and Dunks got enough questions on this that they decided to answer (I don't really agree with the Grist answer, but whatever). Garth creates them outside the game and Grist can be your commander:



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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 months ago
Lifeless wrote:
4 months ago
So with Garth what zone is the copied card in when it's created?
Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
Guardman wrote:
4 months ago


I asked a judge friend of mine real quick and he basically said "We are waiting for clarification" and just sort of left it at that (Though I could almost see him rubbing his forehead through the text).
Yeah, the fast answer is "probably not?", but it's not yet definitive. It basically comes down to "does its characteristic defining ability function outside the game itself, or is it only a planeswalker during deckbuilding?" ...I suppose a followup question would be "can you run it in a deck with Umori, the Collector as a companion and a bunch of creatures?"
Looks like Tabak and Dunks got enough questions on this that they decided to answer (I don't really agree with the Grist answer, but whatever). Garth creates them outside the game and Grist can be your commander:


Was just coming here to add the update. Matt clarified that it's going to require a rules change:

So you're probably not wrong that it can't be a commander *currently*, but by the time it's released they'll update the relevant rules to handle it better.

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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 4 months ago

Great, thanks for sharing that. I just assumed I missed one of the many fringe rules changes that Wizards is fond of these days.

I would have been very surprised if Grist wasn't able to be a commander at the end of the day.

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Grist cannot be a commander unless they added a rule saying PWs can be commanders. Since some PWs have "This card can be your commander" I doubt they added that rule.
Therefor, Gist is not a printed creature and cannot be your commander. (He can be your commander in brawl, but, who still plays brawl?)

Garth is probably gonna be banned. If Black lots was legal i would understand him being playable, but he loses his benefit after 5 turns of play, With a properly built deck, you can get all 5 in a single turn. WUBRG is not as hard to get s one may think (I play dragons and I often can cast my general (The Ur-dragon) by turn 10, as I might miss a land drop, sometimes earlier, i think earliest was turn 6... but i had a morophon out.)

Get garth out, toss in some haste and boom, black lotus.
I don't know, I don't think the only reason lotus is banned is due to fast mana turn one (We do have sol ring). And I doubt Price is the reason too (Gaea's Cradle, Dual lands, We have cards well over $4000 cards legal in Commander.

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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Grist cannot be a commander unless they added a rule saying PWs can be commanders. Since some PWs have "This card can be your commander" I doubt they added that rule.
Therefor, Gist is not a printed creature and cannot be your commander. (He can be your commander in brawl, but, who still plays brawl?)
It has already been confirmed that Grist can be your commander (see posts above yours)
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Garth is probably gonna be banned. If Black lots was legal i would understand him being playable, but he loses his benefit after 5 turns of play, With a properly built deck, you can get all 5 in a single turn. WUBRG is not as hard to get s one may think (I play dragons and I often can cast my general (The Ur-dragon) by turn 10, as I might miss a land drop, sometimes earlier, i think earliest was turn 6... but i had a morophon out.)

Get garth out, toss in some haste and boom, black lotus.
I don't know, I don't think the only reason lotus is banned is due to fast mana turn one (We do have sol ring). And I doubt Price is the reason too (Gaea's Cradle, Dual lands, We have cards well over $4000 legal in Commander.
If 5 mana Black Lotus was too much for Commander, Gilded Lotus would have been banned a long time ago.
Decklist(s) on this forum: WUBRG [Golos] Maelstrom 2: Erratic Boogaloo (randomness themed deck) WUBRG

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Post by Legend » 4 months ago

Garth, One-Eye despite being creative and nostalgic is a letdown. It should have haste; give all your creatures haste; and made Serra, Fat Moti, Hippie, Shivan, Craw Wurm, and Sliver Queen. And it would still be casual garbage. But at least (Boomer) Timmy could have a blast with it.
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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Dragoon wrote:
4 months ago
It has already been confirmed that Grist can be your commander (see posts above yours)
There is no characteristic saying that it can be your commander. It is a PRINTED PW with no creature subtype added. If Grist can be a Commander I guess that also means Elbrus. the Binding Blade can too, after all, it becomes a creature. Other commander PWs have been printed to read "can be your commander". Why would it even be a question on if it was a legal commander?
Simple 1-2 check
1) Is it a Creature? No
2) Does it say can be your commander? No
There should be no need for a clarification on it.
dragoon wrote:If 5 mana Black Lotus was too much for Commander, Gilded Lotus would have been banned a long time ago.
Which is why i do not think that is the only reason it is banned.

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

Yeah, I see the chances of Garth being banned to be pretty much zero. He is a value machine, but a lot less broken than some of the value machines we have seen in the recent past.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Outcryqq
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Post by Outcryqq » 4 months ago

@Gashnaw
As the WOTC staff indicated above, under the current rules, Grist cannot be your commander, but they anticipate a new rule which will make it so. I suspect the rule could be something as simple as "if a card would be a legendary creature if it started a game in the command zone, then it can be your commander". Grist has a character-defining ability that makes it a creature, so the only issue that CDAs aren't checked during deck construction. Nothing about your comparison to Elbrus, the Binding Blade // Withengar Unbound; Elbrus does not have a CDA making it a creature anywhere else.

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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 4 months ago

They have shown repeatedly in the recent past that they don't care about broken value engines, even ones that easily produce infinite loops.

The storm ooze that they just spoiled has some interesting applications along these lines I'm sure - Food Chain off the top of my head.

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Post by NZB2323 » 4 months ago

So we got a tribal Squirrel commander, a tribal ooze commander, and last modern horizons we got a tribal bear commander, but still no legendary Kavu commander outside of Morophon, the Boundless.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Outcryqq wrote:
4 months ago
@Gashnaw
As the WOTC staff indicated above, under the current rules, Grist cannot be your commander, but they anticipate a new rule which will make it so. I suspect the rule could be something as simple as "if a card would be a legendary creature if it started a game in the command zone, then it can be your commander". Grist has a character-defining ability that makes it a creature, so the only issue that CDAs aren't checked during deck construction. Nothing about your comparison to Elbrus, the Binding Blade // Withengar Unbound; Elbrus does not have a CDA making it a creature anywhere else.
If CDAs are not check during Deck construction, it is a PW and not legal as a commander, EASY AS THAT!
There should be no question otherwise. There is no rule change needed for ONE CARD! If there is an issue with people playin it because "it's a creature while not on the battlefield" Ban it for kicks. I would.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
Patriarch's Bidding at rare is neat, goes right into Varina.
I already have a copy from years ago (roughly 10 or 11 yrs since i started playing edh), but hopefully it will drive the price down so others can get it now
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Post by Mookie » 4 months ago

More new stuff...
  • Aeve, Progenitor Ooze is another sweet green storm payoff. Or, alternatively, the jankiest Empty the Warrens variant ever. Or, alternatively, a legendary ooze commander.
  • Priest of Fell Rites looks excellent - very cheap reanimation effect on a creature that you can unearth later for more value. Can recur it with Sun Titan and Unearth, among other things. I've been contemplating shifting my Teysa deck to have more reanimation for a while, and this looks to bridge that gap very nicely.
  • Grist, the Hunger Tide is... interesting. Mills yourself, makes tokens, kills things, and the ultimate kills opponents. The (+1) chaining is somewhat concerning, since it can potentially create a ton of tokens (and gain a ton of loyalty), making it difficult to attack Grist... but otherwise, he seems pretty fair. Insect tribal deck, I guess? That said, I'm sure there are a bunch of ways to break the 'is a 1/1 insect in other zones' ability, but that only seems relevant for tutoring / reanimation purposes, and less relevant in the command zone.
  • Garth One-Eye is awesome. Does he combo with Deadeye Navigator + haste? Yes... but what doesn't? If I see someone casting Shivan Dragon in EDH, I really can't complain. May be boring if the standard build is blink effects + extra turns (or whatever), but if you're just using him for value, I think he looks cool.
  • Patriarch's Bidding reprint is nice.
  • Young Necromancer is a cute callback to Young Pyromancer, this time Liliana-themed. Five mana (plus exiling cards from your graveyard) is a steep cost for a reanimation effect, but being a creature means it has plenty of potential.

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
4 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
Patriarch's Bidding at rare is neat, goes right into Varina.
I already have a copy from years ago (roughly 10 or 11 yrs since i started playing edh), but hopefully it will drive the price down so others can get it now
Same, it is in my dragon deck, was in my first ever EDH (Slivers) ran it and i had it in some kitchen table tribal decks (Primarily slivers)

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
[*]Garth One-Eye is awesome. Does he combo with Deadeye Navigator + haste? Yes... but what doesn't? If I see someone casting Shivan Dragon in EDH, I really can't complain. May be boring if the standard build is blink effects + extra turns (or whatever), but if you're just using him for value, I think he looks cool.
Many things don't
Including Garth.
Making him a new object does not remove the fact that the object has already been chosen once. He is going to be gimmicky until people realize he is not good. He will end as a 5/5 with nothing to do.

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Post by FenrirRex » 4 months ago

Grist, the Hunger Tide has enough neat, narrow interactions that I'm actually quite pleased to see him playable as a commander. We already have flip walkers and a handful of other not-broken walker options available, and this guy feels perfectly aligned with the power level we've seen in the command zone while also serving as a gift to insect tribal. Always nervous about more ways for Wizards to sneak strange card types into the command zone, but we're well past that now with all the flip walkers and sorceries.

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Post by Mookie » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
[*]Garth One-Eye is awesome. Does he combo with Deadeye Navigator + haste? Yes... but what doesn't? If I see someone casting Shivan Dragon in EDH, I really can't complain. May be boring if the standard build is blink effects + extra turns (or whatever), but if you're just using him for value, I think he looks cool.
Many things don't
Including Garth.
Making him a new object does not remove the fact that the object has already been chosen once. He is going to be gimmicky until people realize he is not good. He will end as a 5/5 with nothing to do.
Making him a new object does reset the options - see the ruling for Demonic Pact.
The phrase "that hasn't been chosen" refers only to that specific Demonic Pact. If you control one and cast another one, you can choose any mode for the second one the first time its ability triggers.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
4 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
4 months ago
Patriarch's Bidding at rare is neat, goes right into Varina.
I already have a copy from years ago (roughly 10 or 11 yrs since i started playing edh), but hopefully it will drive the price down so others can get it now
Same, it is in my dragon deck, was in my first ever EDH (Slivers) ran it and i had it in some kitchen table tribal decks (Primarily slivers)
Relentless Rats for me
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
[*]Garth One-Eye is awesome. Does he combo with Deadeye Navigator + haste? Yes... but what doesn't? If I see someone casting Shivan Dragon in EDH, I really can't complain. May be boring if the standard build is blink effects + extra turns (or whatever), but if you're just using him for value, I think he looks cool.
Many things don't
Including Garth.
Making him a new object does not remove the fact that the object has already been chosen once. He is going to be gimmicky until people realize he is not good. He will end as a 5/5 with nothing to do.
Making him a new object does reset the options - see the ruling for Demonic Pact.
The phrase "that hasn't been chosen" refers only to that specific Demonic Pact. If you control one and cast another one, you can choose any mode for the second one the first time its ability triggers.
Demonic pact has modes, Garth does not.

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Post by Magiqmaster » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
[*]Garth One-Eye is awesome. Does he combo with Deadeye Navigator + haste? Yes... but what doesn't? If I see someone casting Shivan Dragon in EDH, I really can't complain. May be boring if the standard build is blink effects + extra turns (or whatever), but if you're just using him for value, I think he looks cool.
Many things don't
Including Garth.
Making him a new object does not remove the fact that the object has already been chosen once. He is going to be gimmicky until people realize he is not good. He will end as a 5/5 with nothing to do.
Honestly, I think his abilities make him versatile enough, even without blinking him for more abuse. Being able to destroy an enchantment/artifact, kill a creature, fetch back a card from gy is not too shabby, especially if you can untap him to maximize his potential. This will undoubtedly make some opponents hesitate with playing some spells, knowing a response is there on the battlefield waiting... Anyhow, I understand Garth might not appeal to more competitive builds, but saying he is not good is a bit premature without having tried him first.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago

Many things don't
Including Garth.
Making him a new object does not remove the fact that the object has already been chosen once. He is going to be gimmicky until people realize he is not good. He will end as a 5/5 with nothing to do.
Making him a new object does reset the options - see the ruling for Demonic Pact.
The phrase "that hasn't been chosen" refers only to that specific Demonic Pact. If you control one and cast another one, you can choose any mode for the second one the first time its ability triggers.
Demonic pact has modes, Garth does not.
The formatting matters not. So long as the phrase "that hasn't been chosen" appears in the text, the same rule applies.
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
Mookie wrote:
4 months ago


Making him a new object does reset the options - see the ruling for Demonic Pact.
Demonic pact has modes, Garth does not.
The formatting matters not. So long as the phrase "that hasn't been chosen" appears in the text, the same rule applies.
I am pretty sure it is not the same, but if it is, Get ready to see him get banned.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 months ago

Keep your shirt on. Why on Earth would Garth be banned? Because he's in the command zone and combos?

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