Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 4 months ago

Power Word Kill seems to hit a huge swath of the top-played creatures, but it misses a significant chunk of top commanders (Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, Feather, the Redeemed, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, and Niv-Mizzet, Parun are among the most popular commanders in the format). I think our cup runneth over with enough cheap 2 CMC removal (including very technically newcomer Baleful Mastery) that this is probably gonna miss the cut outside of UBx spellslinger-y control decks or decks like Toshiro Umezawa that will play every instant-speed kill spell that they can muster.

Tiamat is going to be a staple in The Ur-Dragon as another way to reload, but is a surprisingly disappointing commander herself. I expected more from the Dragon Queen.

Urza's Saga seems good in most artifact decks. The fail rate is this is a Wastes that levels up into Sol Ring after a few turns so I'd say any mono-colored deck could at least consider it if they're running any other 0 or 1 mana artifact (and Skullclamp is a card). Notable that it checks mana cost and not mana value - so no using this to nab Lotus Bloom or Walking Ballista (with some other way to save it obviously) or artifact lands like Seat of the Synod. It is a bit more awkward in enchantress decks since it may miss, but I appreciate the design as a safety valve from Modern Constellation decks getting an easy trigger and again, I think plenty of enchantress decks still have targets for it.

Vorpal Sword seems like an excellent equipment in lots of decks. There are surprisingly few artifacts that grant deathtouch, and this is extremely competitive with staples like Basilisk Collar for any deck that can run it.

I was gonna turn my nose up at Portable Hole as a limited/sideboard card only, but at 1 mana value it is fetchable by Trinket Mage and recurrable with Salvaging Station and Auriok Salvagers so that's spicy.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

Urza's saga seems absolutely sick in an affinity style deck where you use it to fish out eggs and stuff. Pretty fun.

Can also use it to entomb dudes like Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker which can be useful. :)
Last edited by pokken 4 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
Urza's saga seems absolutely sick in an affinity style deck where you use it to fish out eggs and stuff. Pretty fun.

Can also use it to entomb dudes like Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker which can be useful. :)
Can't do the second sentence there, Urza's Saga specifically looks at Mana Cost, not Mana Value/Converted Mana Cost. You can only grab things that cost *exactly* 0 or 1, not even stuff like Elven Bow that has a Mana Value of 1 but isn't exactly 1 generic mana.

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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
pokken wrote:
4 months ago
Urza's saga seems absolutely sick in an affinity style deck where you use it to fish out eggs and stuff. Pretty fun.

Can also use it to entomb dudes like Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker which can be useful. :)
Can't do the second sentence there, Urza's Saga specifically looks at Mana Cost, not Mana Value/Converted Mana Cost. You can only grab things that cost *exactly* 0 or 1, not even stuff like Elven Bow that has a Mana Value of 1 but isn't exactly 1 generic mana.
That is "intuitive" :) Thanks.

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Post by Mookie » 4 months ago

Huh, didn't catch that interaction. There go my plans of fetching up Mox Tantalite and Lotus Bloom. Still good though.

...card type: Urza's Saga is A+ Mel design though.

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

Yeah, it was one of those cases where intuition had to be sacrificed on the altar of "not fetching Lotus Bloom turn 3". I think it'll be more obvious when looking at the card itself, as the 0 and 1 are printed like the mana costs, rather than a numeral, but that distinction gets fuzzier when you're looking at it online or reading a transcript.

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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

I feel like they overthought that tbh, I'm sure it'd be a thing but I doubt it breaks anything in Modern or legacy when they can already play As Foretold and Lion's Eye Diamond respectively :)

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 months ago
Krensh wrote:
4 months ago
This seems... bad? 7 mana for a 7/7 flyer draw 5, but they're all dragons... a famously cheap tribe! It also has that fun Myojin-like restriction of needing to be cast. Idk, I feel like the biggest issues a Commander deck like this faces are not creature tutors or draw, but playing the creatures.
Thinking outside the box...

Let's assume you only have 7 lands in play.
Tiamat gets Beledros Witherbloom, Orvar, the All-Form, Wings of Velis Vel, Nameless Inversion, Moritte of the Frost.
Cast Beledros Witherbloom untap lands and play Orvar, the All-Form then target Beledros with Wings of Velis Vel creating a new Beledros.
Beledros Witherbloom untaps lands. Cast Nameless Inversion on Beledros for another untap.
You'll have 13 at this point to spend.
Cast Moritte of the Frost copying Tiamat to get 5 more dragons. Original Tiamat goes back to Command Zone.
Tiamat gets Blades of Velis Vel, Morophon, the Boundless, Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Niv-Mizzet Reborn, something
Cast Blades of Velis Vel on Beledros for another untap.
Cast Morophon, the Boundless then cast Scion of the Ur-Dragon for free.
Activate Scion of the Ur-Dragon for Ramos, Dragon Engine.
Cast Niv-Mizzet Reborn. Ramos, Dragon Engine gets 5 counters so now you can get wwuubbrrgg.
Cast Tiamat again costing 4 getting The Ur-Dragon, Savage Ventmaw, Hellkite Charger, Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, Shapesharer.
Cast The Ur-Dragon and Ramos gets 5 counters again, which is enough to cast out Savage Ventmaw for 3 and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund for 3 which give Ramos 5 counters again and you can finally copy Savage Ventmaw with Shapesharer to officially give you infinite attacks with Hellkite Charger.

Is there an easier way to do this? Probably of course but I have a lot of fun coming up with sequences under tight mana restrictions.
This is beautiful. Seems like it'd get old real fast as it's super linear, but if I'm looking for a combo finish, this one has a really good ratio of total wackiness and actually achievable.

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Post by Dragoon » 4 months ago

@darrenhabib : If I count correctly, you'd need to activate Beledros Witherbloom four times, costing you 40 life, you will need to pack a hefty amount of lifegain to pull that off. Also, Ramos can only be activated once per turn :P
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 months ago

Dragoon wrote:
4 months ago
@darrenhabib : If I count correctly, you'd need to activate Beledros Witherbloom four times, costing you 40 life, you will need to pack a hefty amount of lifegain to pull that off. Also, Ramos can only be activated once per turn :P
Alright I think it can be done with 30 life loss, but you need 8 lands in play. I was one mana short of being able to do it with 7 lands unfortunately. If you have a single mana rock then you can do it with 7 lands.

Let's assume you only have 8 lands in play.
Tiamat gets Beledros Witherbloom, Orvar, the All-Form, Wings of Velis Vel, Nameless Inversion, Moritte of the Frost.
Cast Beledros Witherbloom untap lands and play Orvar, the All-Form then target Beledros with Wings of Velis Vel creating a new Beledros.
Beledros Witherbloom untaps lands.
Cast Moritte of the Frost copying Tiamat to get 5 more dragons. Original Tiamat goes back to Command Zone.
Cast Nameless Inversion on Beledros for another untap.
Moritte of the Frost/Tiamat gets Blades of Velis Vel, Morophon, the Boundless, Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Niv-Mizzet Reborn, The Ur-Dragon.
I think that is 12 available at this stage.
Cast Morophon, the Boundless then cast Scion of the Ur-Dragon for free.
Activate Scion of the Ur-Dragon for Ramos, Dragon Engine.
Cast Niv-Mizzet Reborn. Ramos, Dragon Engine gets 5 counters so now you can get wwuubbrrgg.
Cast Blades of Velis Vel on Scion of the Ur-Dragon/Ramos, Dragon Engine creating a new Ramos, Dragon Engine.
Cast The Ur-Dragon. Ramos, Dragon Engine gets 5 counters so now you can get wwuubbrrgg.
At this stage you have 22 mana which is more than enough to cast out the rest of the cards.
Cast Tiamat from Command Zone again getting Savage Ventmaw, Hellkite Charger, Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, Shapesharer, whatever else.
You can finally copy Savage Ventmaw with Shapesharer to officially give you infinite attacks with Hellkite Charger.

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Post by Cyberium » 4 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 months ago
Dragoon wrote:
4 months ago
@darrenhabib : If I count correctly, you'd need to activate Beledros Witherbloom four times, costing you 40 life, you will need to pack a hefty amount of lifegain to pull that off. Also, Ramos can only be activated once per turn :P
Alright I think it can be done with 30 life loss, but you need 8 lands in play. I was one mana short of being able to do it with 7 lands unfortunately. If you have a single mana rock then you can do it with 7 lands.

Let's assume you only have 8 lands in play.
Tiamat gets Beledros Witherbloom, Orvar, the All-Form, Wings of Velis Vel, Nameless Inversion, Moritte of the Frost.
Cast Beledros Witherbloom untap lands and play Orvar, the All-Form then target Beledros with Wings of Velis Vel creating a new Beledros.
Beledros Witherbloom untaps lands.
Cast Moritte of the Frost copying Tiamat to get 5 more dragons. Original Tiamat goes back to Command Zone.
Cast Nameless Inversion on Beledros for another untap.
Moritte of the Frost/Tiamat gets Blades of Velis Vel, Morophon, the Boundless, Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Niv-Mizzet Reborn, The Ur-Dragon.
I think that is 12 available at this stage.
Cast Morophon, the Boundless then cast Scion of the Ur-Dragon for free.
Activate Scion of the Ur-Dragon for Ramos, Dragon Engine.
Cast Niv-Mizzet Reborn. Ramos, Dragon Engine gets 5 counters so now you can get wwuubbrrgg.
Cast Blades of Velis Vel on Scion of the Ur-Dragon/Ramos, Dragon Engine creating a new Ramos, Dragon Engine.
Cast The Ur-Dragon. Ramos, Dragon Engine gets 5 counters so now you can get wwuubbrrgg.
At this stage you have 22 mana which is more than enough to cast out the rest of the cards.
Cast Tiamat from Command Zone again getting Savage Ventmaw, Hellkite Charger, Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, Shapesharer, whatever else.
You can finally copy Savage Ventmaw with Shapesharer to officially give you infinite attacks with Hellkite Charger.
This is some YuGiOh level chaining there. Once again I'm thankful that MtG has mana cost for most stuff.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

power word kill is kind of disappointing. Not from a balance perspective but come on. This spell is way cooler in DND than this. Should have been "if target player has less than half their starting life total, rounded down, that player loses the game." Obviously the spell would have a significantly higher casting cost.

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
I feel like they overthought that tbh, I'm sure it'd be a thing but I doubt it breaks anything in Modern or legacy when they can already play As Foretold and Lion's Eye Diamond respectively :)
As foretold doesn't tutor it from the deck, though. And offers two opportunities to counter, where urza offers none. Considering they tested it and we haven't, I'm willing to lean towards it being justified.

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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
As foretold doesn't tutor it from the deck, though. And offers two opportunities to counter, where urza offers none. Considering they tested it and we haven't, I'm willing to lean towards it being justified.
Remember it's functionally not much different than just drawing lotus bloom on turn 1 (A turn faster I guess?) And it requires colorless trash lands in your deck.

I would be willing to bet money they did not build competitive modern decks with it and trial them :P They have said that they basically do thought exercises for modern and legacy but don't really test, in the past.

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
As foretold doesn't tutor it from the deck, though. And offers two opportunities to counter, where urza offers none. Considering they tested it and we haven't, I'm willing to lean towards it being justified.
Remember it's functionally not much different than just drawing lotus bloom on turn 1 (A turn faster I guess?) And it requires colorless trash lands in your deck.

I would be willing to bet money they did not build competitive modern decks with it and trial them :P They have said that they basically do thought exercises for modern and legacy but don't really test, in the past.
I mean, it's modern horizons. It's the set aimed specifically at modern. Part of the whole pitch of it is that they can spend the time testing modern if it's the purpose of the product. And it would be both a turn faster, and double the effective number of blooms in the deck. So yeah, I'm pretty confident they did test it, given they've explicitly said as much.

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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

Given how some cards from the previous Modern Horizons turned out pretty busted, and given the complete mess that has been Standard over the past 1 1/2 years, I wouldn't have a ton of confidence in WotC's playtesting. Who could have possibly imagined Oko, Uro or Omn4th being a problem except, well, pretty much everyone as soon as those cards were spoiled?
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
I mean, it's modern horizons. It's the set aimed specifically at modern. Part of the whole pitch of it is that they can spend the time testing modern if it's the purpose of the product. And it would be both a turn faster, and double the effective number of blooms in the deck. So yeah, I'm pretty confident they did test it, given they've explicitly said as much.
From the great minds that gave us astrolabe, w6, urza, hogaak in the same set - I suspect that the route to Urza land being what it is was:
-- Let's make it mana cost instead of value so it doesn't get abused to get suspend stuff. Ok. try that out in one or two decks, good to go!

I'd be pretty surprised if it was mana value in the initial draft but hey, maybe :)

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
4 months ago
I mean, it's modern horizons. It's the set aimed specifically at modern. Part of the whole pitch of it is that they can spend the time testing modern if it's the purpose of the product. And it would be both a turn faster, and double the effective number of blooms in the deck. So yeah, I'm pretty confident they did test it, given they've explicitly said as much.
From the great minds that gave us astrolabe, w6, urza, hogaak in the same set - I suspect that the route to Urza land being what it is was:
-- Let's make it mana cost instead of value so it doesn't get abused to get suspend stuff. Ok. try that out in one or two decks, good to go!

I'd be pretty surprised if it was mana value in the initial draft but hey, maybe :)
Pretty sure the truth is somewhere between "proper game balance responsibility" and "we only budgeted for X amount of playtest hours".
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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Pretty sure the truth is somewhere between "proper game balance responsibility" and "we only budgeted for X amount of playtest hours".
Probably, with X = 3.5.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
"we only budgeted for X amount of playtest hours".
[ slams vague, arbitrary "Winner!" button ]

But anywho, DnD is something I've always wanted to try but haven't actually yet. Not sure how it'll pan out for me.

But on a positive note, the buy a box art for the Vorpal Sword|65287 is quite nice. Tiamat makes enough sense but doesn't have enough of a unique oomph I would say.
Last edited by Sanity_Eclipse 4 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
4 months ago
But anywho, DnD is something I've always wanted to try but haven't actually yet. Not sure how it'll pan out for me.
I have been playing DnD on and off and in one edition or another since 1980. A fair percentage of the funnest experiences I've had have occurred within DnD games.

When you try it out, I hope you have a fantastic time of it.
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 4 months ago

^ Should clarify on that bit, I'm not sure how the DnD feel of the upcoming set will pan out for me. Still want to try DnD, but that's another topic.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Was glancing through that Summer of Legend announcement, and while not necessarily a new card, it is unreleased, etc...

That art on the prerelease fat pack thing for MH2 does look a lot like an updated Dakkon Blackblade, or a descendant or something. Fat pack art has the same kind of helmet extension as Dakkon, exact same pose, similar style of sword, like a longsword/scimitar/falchion kinda thing, shield pattern and design looks similar too.
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Post by Dunharrow » 4 months ago

Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
4 months ago
^ Should clarify on that bit, I'm not sure how the DnD feel of the upcoming set will pan out for me. Still want to try DnD, but that's another topic.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Was glancing through that Summer of Legend announcement, and while not necessarily a new card, it is unreleased, etc...

That art on the prerelease fat pack thing for MH2 does look a lot like an updated Dakkon Blackblade, or a descendant or something. Fat pack art has the same kind of helmet extension as Dakkon, exact same pose, similar style of sword, like a longsword/scimitar/falchion kinda thing, shield pattern and design looks similar too.
Pretty sure Maro confirmed Dakkon was in this. I didn't know it was a crossover character.
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 4 months ago

Did he? Huh. Not that I pay too much attention anymore to all the various preview sources. Too spread out, or you have to manually go through videos etc. Has it updated on here, or the mothership? Cool. If not, I'll wait til it has.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, throwing it back to STX for a confirmation real quick, does Dragon's Approach require 4 copies or 5 copies of it to be exiled? Wording appears to boil down to "have 4 copies in your GY, cast (Mambo) #5, exile all 5 for a dragon." So basically, sets of 4 copies or sets of 5? Seems like 5.
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

today's tease from MaRo
a legendary character best known for having his name on a powerful card (that's been banned) finally gets a legendary creature

• a theme on only a handful of cards in Modern Horizons gets a larger presence

• a Frog twenty-six years in the making

• new split cards

• a Future Sight mechanic reused for first time

• a character that first appeared in a Magic novel finally becomes a legendary creature

• A card with the number words "four" and "fourteen".

• a fan favorite animal character finally becomes a legendary creature

• a white enchantment with a trigger that investigates

• a planeswalker from the past that has previously only had a legendary creature card

Here are some snippets from rules text that appear in the set:

• "Whenever you cast your third spell each turn,"

• "for each other Ooze you control."

• "If an ability of a <CENSORED> or another <CENSORED> you control triggers, that ability triggers an additional time."

• "This ability costs 1 less to activate for each +1/+1 counter on creatures you control."

• "you may sacrifice a Mountain rather than pay this spell's mana cost."

• "Trample over planeswalkers"

• "If an Insect card was milled this way,"

• "Protection from permanents with corruption counters on them"

• "choose a number between 1 and 5. Flip that many coins."

• "instead create one of each."

Here are some type lines from the set:

• Artifact Creature – Assembly-Worker

• Creature – Dinosaur Illusion

• Creature – Dauthi Rogue

• Creature – Skeleton Shaman

• Creature – Elemental Incarnation

• Artifact Creature – Clue Myr

• Tribal Artifact – Lhurgoyf

• Legendary Creature – Merfolk God

• Legendary Creature – Snake Elf Scout

• Legendary Creature – Squirrel Warrior

Finally, here are some of the mechanics in the set. (I replaced all the letters with x's.)

• xxxx (4)

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• xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (15)

Tune in May 20th to DailyMTG.com for answers to some of these and more.
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