Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 months ago

Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 months ago
WizardMN wrote:
2 months ago
That is because Amass is worded differently. With the previous discussion, Zaxara says "put counters on *it*" which refers to the token that was just created. Since two are created, there are two "its" to refer to so the action is taken on both.

However, Amass doesn't put counters on "it". Instead, Amass creates a 0/0 token. Then, the instruction is "find an Army creature and put some creatures on that Army". Since it doesn't try to put counters on the token that was just created (though, that is often the only one you will have) and instead makes you choose "an Army" you simply do that.

While the wording prevents things from Doubling Season from working, it is really just a nuance that comes about from the idea that you don't always have to create an Army so there is no way for the ability to refer specifically to the Army it creates. It won't always create one.

Not to say it isn't confusing of course.
Ah, yes, I just got it.

With no Army tokens around, Amass N reads:

"If you don't control an Army creature, create a 0/0 black Zombie Army creature token. Choose an Army creature you control. Put N +1/+1 counters on that creature."

So it doesn't actually refer to a specific token, it just grabs any Army available and dumps counters on it.

Got it.

:grin:
Yep. You can even end up with the situation of having two armies out at once without doubling season, if you run changelings, for example. You always pick which one you put the counters on, so making two army tokens is no different.

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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 2 months ago

cheonice wrote:
2 months ago
Hm, you're right. At first Silverquill looked like a bunch of witty poetry slammers and poets, sarcastic but full of passion for words (and inklings). But yeah... there are some really problematic tropes present. Did anyone at Wizards write something about that aspect of the poet school?

I mean its both (Loreley is a flavor text writer and writes the planeswalkers scripts for arena)



Its similar to Ravnica and other factions , they often will put the most stereotypical versions of the factions since they don't have a huge amount space to show off every aspect on the cards.
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cheonice
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Post by cheonice » 2 months ago

I see, where she is going. But compared to the other colleges (she mentions some cards in that Twitter feed) Silverquill makes bullying a key feature. It would've been great, if they framed the bullying in another way, because yeah... school was/is not a great time for many.

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Post by illakunsaa » 2 months ago

It's just a card game guys. You don't have to take it so seriously.

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Post by cheonice » 2 months ago

illakunsaa wrote:
2 months ago
It's just a card game guys. You don't have to take it so seriously.
Just pointing out the flaws of a set I otherwise adore :love:

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Post by kirkusjones » 2 months ago

illakunsaa wrote:
2 months ago
It's just a card game guys. You don't have to take it so seriously.
It's a card game where the goal is to kill your opponent in any number of horrific ways. Whether electrocuting, immolating, mauling with any number of a variety of horrors, slowly bleeding them to death, chipping away at their sanity until they're left a drooling husk or giving them a particularly virulent plague.

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Post by JWK » 2 months ago

illakunsaa wrote:
2 months ago
It's just a card game guys. You don't have to take it so seriously.
That is exactly the invalidating and insensitive sort of response that is a bad take on this stuff.

Lots of people have experienced traumas of various sorts. When they encounter things that trigger their memories of and learned responses to that trauma, they are going to react to it. One can be dismissive of such reactions and those who have them, or one can try to be understanding. How one chooses to respond to others' pain says a lot about the kind of person one is, A bit of understanding and compassion goes a long way toward helping people feel safe and valued, and then the game can move forward. Or one can be belittling and dismissive. One of those is a lot better behavior, and better sportsmanship, and a sign of being a better person, than the other.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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JWK
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Post by JWK » 2 months ago

kirkusjones wrote:
2 months ago
illakunsaa wrote:
2 months ago
It's just a card game guys. You don't have to take it so seriously.
It's a card game where the goal is to kill your opponent in any number of horrific ways. Whether electrocuting, immolating, mauling with any number of a variety of horrors, slowly bleeding them to death, chipping away at their sanity until they're left a drooling husk or giving them a particularly virulent plague.
I'm guessing you think banning Invoke Prejudice was a bad idea too.

For some people, stuff that others can easily dismiss as fantasy hits uncomfortably close to home. Being aware of this, and compassionate about it, doesn't take much time, isn't difficult and needn't even interfere with one's enjoyment of the game.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by tstorm823 » 2 months ago

JWK wrote:
2 months ago
and a sign of being a better person, than the other.
While I'm certain the appropriate amount of consideration lies somewhere between the extremes of "don't take anything seriously" and "proactively complaining on behalf of other players that Wizards made their own Slytherin", please don't do the particular thing quoted above.
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Post by kirkusjones » 2 months ago

JWK wrote:
2 months ago
kirkusjones wrote:
2 months ago
illakunsaa wrote:
2 months ago
It's just a card game guys. You don't have to take it so seriously.
It's a card game where the goal is to kill your opponent in any number of horrific ways. Whether electrocuting, immolating, mauling with any number of a variety of horrors, slowly bleeding them to death, chipping away at their sanity until they're left a drooling husk or giving them a particularly virulent plague.
I'm guessing you think banning Invoke Prejudice was a bad idea too.

For some people, stuff that others can easily dismiss as fantasy hits uncomfortably close to home. Being aware of this, and compassionate about it, doesn't take much time, isn't difficult and needn't even interfere with one's enjoyment of the game.
. That's quite the jump to make. Invoke Prejudice has racist imagery on it and the artist is an actual white supremacist. I have no problem with the removal of culturally insensitive imagery. Just because I don't agree with your take on a piece of art doesn't mean I hold prejudiced views. My point is that in a game predicated on violence, violent imagery is going to be present. If that doesn't sit well with you for whatever reason, that's fine.

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Post by Hermes_ » 2 months ago

cheonice wrote:
2 months ago
I see, where she is going. But compared to the other colleges (she mentions some cards in that Twitter feed) Silverquill makes bullying a key feature. It would've been great, if they framed the bullying in another way, because yeah... school was/is not a great time for many.
Considering the set was compared to Harry Potter, and the blood from back of hand happened in book five, i mean at some point we're going to need to draw a line otherwise key elements of the game are going to be removed or redone to make them less offensive. I know it's slippery slope, but folks have already eluded to other players being "triggered" in some manner by effects like theft, controlling their turn due to their past.

(just out of curiosity, but did anyone hear or was actually angered over the way Harry was treated by Umbridge due to your own school experiences?)
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Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 months ago

While I definitely get having a negative response to bullying being depicted, it's worth considering that doing a magic set in a school/college *without* any would have a definite air of whitewashing (in the older, less racial sense). I think "it exists, the people who tend to do it tend towards (but are not exclusive to) this particular school" is about as reasonable a line to walk as any. There's no decision here that's going to satisfy 100% of people, of course. But I think the ones they made were reasonable, especially given that the depictions on cards are relatively few and far between.

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Post by Dunharrow » 2 months ago

I am not generally a fan of the 'magical school' archetype, because I find it somehow always gets into these awkward positions.
Often you see a school bully get their just desserts and everyone can be happy without bullying from now on. It's so cheesy and unrealistic.
On the other hand, avoiding bullying entirely seems like a bad call.

I have yet to see a magical school where bullying was well-handled.
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Post by JWK » 2 months ago

kirkusjones wrote:
2 months ago
JWK wrote:
2 months ago
kirkusjones wrote:
2 months ago


It's a card game where the goal is to kill your opponent in any number of horrific ways. Whether electrocuting, immolating, mauling with any number of a variety of horrors, slowly bleeding them to death, chipping away at their sanity until they're left a drooling husk or giving them a particularly virulent plague.
I'm guessing you think banning Invoke Prejudice was a bad idea too.

For some people, stuff that others can easily dismiss as fantasy hits uncomfortably close to home. Being aware of this, and compassionate about it, doesn't take much time, isn't difficult and needn't even interfere with one's enjoyment of the game.
. That's quite the jump to make. Invoke Prejudice had racist imagery on it and the artist is an actual white supremacist. I have no problem with the removal of culturally insensitive imagery. Just because I don't agree with your take on a piece of art doesn't mean I hold prejudiced views. My point is that in a game predicated on violence, violent imagery is going to be present. If that doesn't sit well with you for whatever reason, that's fine.
I'm glad we agree that racist imagery is a bad thing and has no place in the game. Now consider that for some people, some other sorts of imagery might have a pretty painful emotional impact similar to how racist imagery impacts others.

Because the experiences of everyone who has been traumatized is different, we can't always predict how a pesron will react to something. Trauma can be very personal. That said, some sorts of imagery are more likely than others to trigger such responses, and this is particularly true to the extent some imagery more closely reflects distressing real-world events. Nobody has ever been attacked by a dragon or shot with bolts of energy fired by a wizard, but an unfortunately large number of people have experienced bullying, and others have unfortunately experienced abuse by an authority figure or within an educational context. As such, we can anticipate that artwork and other game content reflecting such themes might cause a pretty strong reaction in a subset of players. A couple of participants in this thread have already noted finding the art for one card uncomfortable for this reason.

I'm not saying that's bad art or that it shouldn't have been printed, but I do believe that as players, we should be aware of the possibility of people responding negatively to such imagery, and that should it happen, we should respond in an accepting and compassionate way, not a dismissive one. Statements iike "it's just a game" are dismissing and invalidating of the responses and feelings of other players. We may not know why someone has the reactions they do, nor do we need to. Good play isn't just about grasping the rules and concepts of the game, it's also about how we treat and respond to others, and about creating a welcoming and accepting environment.
Last edited by JWK 2 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 2 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago

(just out of curiosity, but did anyone hear or was actually angered over the way Harry was treated by Umbridge due to your own school experiences?)
I have provided therapy to a client who had to stop reading Harry Potter for awhile when they got to the stuff with Umbridge because it hit too close to home in evoking their own experiences of having been harmed by a teacher and having to say things that were untrue to avoid further harm. Things like this definitely hit home with some people.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by bobthefunny » 2 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 months ago
Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 months ago
Just out of curiosity, I checked the rulings for Amass and doubling token-creation.

Apparently, if you control no Army tokens, and you Amass 1 with Doubling Season out, you get two Army tokens but put the counters on only one.

So Amass with the Twins/Doubling Season means you get two 0/0 Zombie Army tokens, but only gets the counters.

This muddles things a bit.
That is because Amass is worded differently. With the previous discussion, Zaxara says "put counters on *it*" which refers to the token that was just created. Since two are created, there are two "its" to refer to so the action is taken on both.

However, Amass doesn't put counters on "it". Instead, Amass creates a 0/0 token. Then, the instruction is "find an Army creature and put some creatures on that Army". Since it doesn't try to put counters on the token that was just created (though, that is often the only one you will have) and instead makes you choose "an Army" you simply do that.

While the wording prevents things from Doubling Season from working, it is really just a nuance that comes about from the idea that you don't always have to create an Army so there is no way for the ability to refer specifically to the Army it creates. It won't always create one.

Not to say it isn't confusing of course.
Yeah, Amass is weird.

When you double Amass, it makes the two tokens, but the second half of the ability doesn't reference "it" (which would mean the objects created), but rather to find an army you control...
701.44. Amass

701.44a To amass N means "If you don't control an Army creature, create a 0/0 black Zombie Army creature token. Choose an Army creature you control. Put N +1/+1 counters on that creature."

701.44b The phrase "the [subtype] you amassed" refers to the creature you chose, whether or not it received counters.
Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago
(just out of curiosity, but did anyone hear or was actually angered over the way Harry was treated by Umbridge due to your own school experiences?)
I recall there being a fair bit of backlash online about it. Umbridge is quite probably the most hated character in HP overall.

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Post by Hermes_ » 2 months ago

JWK wrote:
2 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago

(just out of curiosity, but did anyone hear or was actually angered over the way Harry was treated by Umbridge due to your own school experiences?)
I have provided therapy to a client who had to stop reading Harry Potter for awhile when they got to the stuff with Umbridge because it hit too close to home in evoking their own experiences of having been harmed by a teacher and having to say things that were untrue to avoid further harm. Things like this definitely hit home with some people.
aw man that must have been tough, i asked because when book 5 came out, I wasn't aware that it might even be an issue due to well not really being on the wider internet like i am now, btw i also know how crappy school can be, I've posted a whole long post about my attempted suicide in high school. So, I can totally understand how others feel, i just worry about how far will it go?
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Post by cheonice » 2 months ago

JWK wrote:
2 months ago

Because the experiences of everyone who has been traumatized is different, we can't always predict how a pesron will react to something. Trauma can be very personal. That said, some sorts of imagery are more likely than others to trigger such responses, and this is particularly true to the extent some imagery more closely reflects distressing real-world events. Nobody has ever been attacked by a dragon or shot with bolts of energy fired by a wizard, but an unfortunately large number of people have experienced bullying, and others have unfortunately experienced abuse by an authority figure or within an educational context. As such, we can anticipate that artwork and other game content reflecting such themes might cause a pretty strong reaction in a subset of players. A couple of participants in this thread have already noted finding the art for one card uncomfortable for this reason.

I'm not saying that's bad art or that it shouldn't have been printed, but I do believe that as players, we should be aware of the possibility of people responding negatively to such imagery, and that should it happen, we should respond in an accepting and compassionate way, not a dismissive one. Statements iike "it's just a game" are dismissing and invalidating of the responses and feelings of other players. We may not know why someone has the reactions they do, nor do we need to. Good play isn't just about grasping the rules and concepts of the game, it's also about how we treat and respond to others, and about creating a welcoming and accepting environment.
This.

Magic is a big part of our life, maybe even an escape mechanism. Being compassionate should be the baseline.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 months ago

I can grasp the qualms with silverquill, but I also think kirkus is onto something. There's a ton of terrible stuff in-game, from torture all the way to genocide. The aesthetic of magic is fundamentally, intrinsically, and inarguably violent. Many of the more extreme actions are taken by the game's villains, which establishes them to us, the audience, as villainous and pushes us to root for the protagonists. The conflict therein lies in that push & pull and is mirrored in the gameplay.

Silverquill may be a dark depiction, but no narrative worth paying attention to is without antagonism of some kind. I think Silverquill seems so comically over-the-top mean as a way to push the viewer against them. Most people are not awful, and by depicting the bully faction as such, makes a pretty salient statement against that brand of behavior that anyone can grasp.

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Post by JWK » 2 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago
JWK wrote:
2 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago

(just out of curiosity, but did anyone hear or was actually angered over the way Harry was treated by Umbridge due to your own school experiences?)
I have provided therapy to a client who had to stop reading Harry Potter for awhile when they got to the stuff with Umbridge because it hit too close to home in evoking their own experiences of having been harmed by a teacher and having to say things that were untrue to avoid further harm. Things like this definitely hit home with some people.
aw man that must have been tough, i asked because when book 5 came out, I wasn't aware that it might even be an issue due to well not really being on the wider internet like i am now, btw i also know how crappy school can be, I've posted a whole long post about my attempted suicide in high school. So, I can totally understand how others feel, i just worry about how far will it go?
I don't think the game should completely avoid including any content that anyone might find distressing, because that would a) be close to impossible, and b) would probably not make for an interesting game of magical combat. The folk at WotC already draw certain lines, having become more sensitive to racial/ethnic depictions, being cautious of overly sexualized imagery and avoiding any hint of sexual violence. I think those are fine lines. Should there be more? That's not really my call to make, but I think it's a quesiton that is worth asking, and it would be worth Wizards talking to people for whom content of any sort crosses a line. In the meantime, we can be sensitive to the fact that some of the stuff in this set - and possibly in some future sets - might be difficult for some other players, and try to be understanding and supportive.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 months ago

Here's my take on the whole Silverquill thing: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34792. It seems to have gone pretty far afield of this thread's main focus.

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Post by JWK » 2 months ago

As another example of content many found distressing, there was the stuff in Ikoria, where Lukka's beast companion was killed by someone who wanted to control or get back at Lukka. Shortly after Ikoria was released, I did therapy sessions with a client who is also a Magic player specifically because that depiction was distressingly similar to something she had experienced. I can definitely understand why that stuff in the cards and related lore impacted the client, and probably some other people, but I also understand why it was included by WotC, what they were shooting for in that depiction. It was meant to be distressing, to make people uncomfortable, and I think on the whole it was effective. I would hope MTG players as a whole would be understanding why some players might not like to see or feel comfortable playing Heartless Act, and apply that same sort of understanding to other cards that produce a strong reaction in some people.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 months ago

In other news, green gets another potentially reciprocal Regrowth. What do people think about this vs. Skullwinder?

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Post by cheonice » 2 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 months ago
In other news, green gets another potentially reciprocal Regrowth. What do people think about this vs. Skullwinder?
I like Skullwinder better. As a creature it is way more abusable. 4 mana, regrowth 2 is not what I would play.

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Post by Hawk » 2 months ago

Healing Technique seems like the best of this cycle, but I still am not sure I'd run it compared to Skullwinder nevermind Eternal Witness. Regrowth, and Wildest Dreams. Definitely has some extra value in lifegain based commanders like Lathiel, the Bounteous Dawn or all the Witherbloom folks though.

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