Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Sporegorger_Dragon
Posts: 248
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 2 weeks ago

materpillar wrote:
2 weeks ago
In other news, someone is going to cast Combat Calligrapher and accidentally house my Changeling deck too.
I would not be surprised one bit if this card was deliberately designed to house Changeling decks.

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 1606
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 20
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 2 weeks ago

A few interesting options in the Silverquill deck. The +1/+1 counter // diplomancy theme doesn't have much overlap with my existing Orzhov decks, but there are some potential role players.

Wallycaine
Posts: 521
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Wallycaine » 2 weeks ago

Oh, that reminds me: Another cute thing with Stinging Study is that partners turn it semi-modal. If you've got a 7 mana and 4 mana partner pair, you can pick which one you want to use, making it that tiny bit more flexible. At 5 mana you probably don't want to be picking the smaller mode too often, but it's neat to have the choice.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 3205
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Stinging Study feels fun to draw 16 with vilis too heh :P

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1089
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 49
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
Stinging Study feels fun to draw 16 with vilis too heh :P
Hell, even the floor of drawing 8 seems pretty damn good.

I looked through my decks and the mana values of black decks I have are 2, 4, 5, 5, and 8. It sucks for 2, but even drawing 4, at Instant Timing no less, seems reasonable. I think I am for sure going to add it to Karador, Ghost Chieftain and probably the other three decks. Marchesa is the one at 4 and I think Instant timing draw 4 is reasonable. Not spectacular by any means, but still good.

NZB2323
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by NZB2323 » 2 weeks ago

Stinging Study seems good in Edgar Markov and Morophon, the Boundless.

Scholarship Sponsor seems like it will compete with cards like Solemn Simulacrum, Walking Atlas, and wayfarer's bauble for ramp in white decks.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 3205
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Yeah that seems really good in decks like Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Tasigur, the Golden Fang who have very high mana costs with cost reduction mechanics, and being instant was a nice choice.

User avatar
JWK
Elder Thing
Posts: 342
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Post by JWK » 2 weeks ago

Stinging Study will find its way into Szat/Kodama and a couple of other decks. Inkshield is also pretty amazing, though the need to keep 5 mana untapped to use it will limit it somewhat. The rest of the Silverquill deck, I'm not particularly impressed by, especially given how many other intersting, powerful and fun cards were in the Quandrix deck. I guess one deck always has to be the best of any batch, but does it have to be the U/G one?
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 752
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Serenade » 2 weeks ago

Stinging Study does nothing when your general is in the GY or on the stack. Interesting.

Only one black mana is excellent, too. I feel like all of my black decks want this one.

EDIT: Also fun that I can steal your general, and you can still use this. What a spell!
Last edited by Serenade 2 weeks ago, edited 1 time in total.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 510
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 2 weeks ago

I actually like Silverquill precon a lot, alongside Lorehold being my favorites so far. There are certain cards to upgrade from (Cathars' Crusade immediately comes to mind), but overall it provided many strong cards appeal for both political and aristocrat style decks. I particularly loves Cunning Rhetoric, awesome bait when you have Monarch.

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 707
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 weeks ago

I think the silverquill precon is the one @Sheldon worked on.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

User avatar
TheAmericanSpirit
Human Smokestack
Posts: 413
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Under the chicken coop

Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 weeks ago

Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 weeks ago

Also, I'm not comfortable with what Stinging Study is depicting here, and the broader implications of what life is like under Silverquill.
To each their own. When I was in school, I always achieved better under harsher teachers than the comfortably nice ones. Fear is an alright motivator and masochism has its appeals. Silverquill seems like a place where second best is almost criminal, so if being poked by a demon gives you that extra edge somehow, I'm sure they're down with it one way or the other. Furthermore, I don't think there's any rule against switching schools if you don't like the methodology (correct me if I'm wrong, I've just not seen/read anything to the contrary explicitly stated.).

User avatar
duducrash
Posts: 88
Joined: 9 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Brazil

Post by duducrash » 2 weeks ago

Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 weeks ago
Also, I'm not comfortable with what Stinging Study is depicting here, and the broader implications of what life is like under Silverquill
I share your sentiment. Corporal punishment is archaic and traumatic and this art evokes this to me personally. This being a close subject to abusive households is what make touchy to me personally.

That being said, when american schools organized walk outs following one of the school gun massacres I read reports of teenagers receiving corporal punishment. I think for them it's a cultural thing, so outsiders may be amazed at the barbaric nature I guess

kraus911
Posts: 45
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by kraus911 » 1 week ago

duducrash wrote:
2 weeks ago
Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 weeks ago
Also, I'm not comfortable with what Stinging Study is depicting here, and the broader implications of what life is like under Silverquill
I share your sentiment. Corporal punishment is archaic and traumatic and this art evokes this to me personally. This being a close subject to abusive households is what make touchy to me personally.

That being said, when american schools organized walk outs following one of the school gun massacres I read reports of teenagers receiving corporal punishment. I think for them it's a cultural thing, so outsiders may be amazed at the barbaric nature I guess
Pretty sure this is a direct reference to a scene in Harry Potter where Harry is punished by having to write "I will not tell lies" with a pen that magically carves the words into his hand while he writes them on paper. Definitely agree though that this particular art is pretty insensitive to a lot of people who struggle with abuse and/or self harm. Also I dislike how directly they chose to mirror elements of Harry Potter as opposed to being inspired by it.

NZB2323
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by NZB2323 » 1 week ago

duducrash wrote:
2 weeks ago
Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 weeks ago
Also, I'm not comfortable with what Stinging Study is depicting here, and the broader implications of what life is like under Silverquill
I share your sentiment. Corporal punishment is archaic and traumatic and this art evokes this to me personally. This being a close subject to abusive households is what make touchy to me personally.

That being said, when american schools organized walk outs following one of the school gun massacres I read reports of teenagers receiving corporal punishment. I think for them it's a cultural thing, so outsiders may be amazed at the barbaric nature I guess
I mean, is Stinging Study really worse than Humiliate or Fracture? Shineshadow Snarl states that the Silverquill are corrupt, and it seems like their ultimate goal is to cause pain, suffering, and humiliation against their enemies.

But Orzhov has always had disturbing art about torture:
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 419
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 1 week ago

Re: Fractals, and doubling, and replacement effects.
Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
2 weeks ago
agawin61 wrote:
2 weeks ago
Thing is, Zaxara says "Then put X +1/+1 counters on it. That makes it Zaxara's ability not the newly made hydras, and if that's duplicated than it should be with fractals as well. I rest my case.
Oh, I'm pretty sure that's what intended, yes.

I meant that Zaxara has a comma separating the token-creation clause and the counter-placing clause, which clearly indicates the token-producing ability is linked with the counters:

"create a 0/0 green Hydra creature token, then put X +1/+1 counters on it."

Similar to cards which create tokens in certain states, like a tapped Zombie token or a token that's put into play and attacking. Naturally, if duplicated by the Twins' ability, the ability would produce two tokens with those characyeristics/states, like two tapped Zombie tokens, or two Goblin tokens that are tapped and attacking.

However, all of the Quandrix spells/abilities have a period separating the token ability from the counter ability, suggesting (at least to me) that this was a separate ability.

"Create a 0/0 green and blue Fractal creature token. Put X +1/+1 counters on it, where X"
If it's all in one block of text, it's a single ability, no matter how many periods there are.
113.2c An object may have multiple abilities. If the object is represented by a card, then aside from certain defined abilities that may be strung together on a single line (see rule 702, "Keyword Abilities"), each paragraph break in a card's text marks a separate ability. If the object is not represented by a card, the effect that created it may have given it multiple abilities. An object may also be granted additional abilities by a spell or ability. If an object has multiple instances of the same ability, each instance functions independently. This may or may not produce more effects than a single instance; refer to the specific ability for more information.
The way a Replacement effect works, is that it literally changes the ability before it happens. Zaxara's ability is typically
  • "Whenever you cast a spell with {X} in its mana cost, create a 0/0 green Hydra creature token, then put X +1/+1 counters on it."
With a doubling season out, the ability itself gets modified. It now reads:
  • "Whenever you cast a spell with {X} in its mana cost, create a TWO 0/0 green Hydra creature token, then put X +1/+1 counters on it THOSE OBJECTS."
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.

614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

So, to resolve this, Serpentine Curve with Doubling Season would end up as:
  • "Create a TWO 0/0 green and blue Fractal creature tokenS. Put X TWO TIMES X +1/+1 counters on [the objects created this way], where X is one plus the total number of instant and sorcery cards you own in exile and in your graveyard."
Compare, for example, this hypothetical spell:

"Create a 2/2 green Bear creature token. Regenerate it. It fights target creature you don't control."

This sort of wording would lead me to think that if the token-production were to be doubled, two Bear tokens would be produced, but only one regenerates, and fights.

Again, this is clearly not the case, but it was what I interpreted from the wording.
Hypothetical spells are not great examples... In this case, both bears would regenerate and fight. That is because the modified ability would read:
  • "Create a TWO 2/2 green Bear creature tokenS. Regenerate it THEM. It THEY fight target creature you don't control."
This is because the second part of the ability refers to the tokens created in the first part.

The reason hypothetical cards are not great, is that there IS an existing similar effect, that has a very different outcome and could confuse players who wouldn't understand why:

Ezuri's Predation with doubling season will create double the tokens, but the extra tokens WILL NOT FIGHT, which is often confusing for new players. But if you look at the modified event, it becomes more clear. The modified event becomes:
  • "For each creature your opponents control, create a TWO 4/4 green Beast creature tokenS. Each of those Beasts fights a different one of those creatures."
That makes it more clear - you get double the tokens, but each token still has to fight a different creature... Eventually, you run out of "different" creatures to fight. It is much more clear that only one token can fight any given creature.

Sporegorger_Dragon
Posts: 248
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 1 week ago

duducrash wrote:
2 weeks ago
I mean, is Stinging Study really worse than Humiliate or Fracture? Shineshadow Snarl states that the Silverquill are corrupt, and it seems like their ultimate goal is to cause pain, suffering, and humiliation against their enemies.
It's all about the presentation and context, not the heinousness of the act.

A teenage Rakdos cultist shooting Boros guards with fire? Hilarious!

A teenage Rakdos cultist entering a school and setting kids on fire? That is in extremely poor taste at best, even if the actual act was only implied.

Stinging Study would still be uncomfortable even if there was no blood and there was only a bruise on the hand. And it's always been a real-life problem of people in power abusing vulnerable people under them that should be in their care, whether they be teen idols or gymnasts at a university.
bobthefunny wrote:
1 week ago
Re: Fractals, and doubling, and replacement effects.
Oh, I understand now that it how it should be.

I'm just saying the wording and phrasing of Fractal token production might lead to a misunderstanding, as happened to me. The hypothetical card was an example of how card might be misconstrued, so I suggested an alternative wording to make it more clear (for people like). But thanks for the elucidation anyway.

I wonder if there will be a lot of people like me that misconstrue the wording?

User avatar
JWK
Elder Thing
Posts: 342
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Post by JWK » 1 week ago

The art on Stinging Study probably isn't the only aspect of Silverquill that is going to evoke some unpleasant reactions from some players. By connecting Silverquill to the "mean kids" trope and having the school's cards include things like Humiliate, an active decision was made to connect Silverquill to bullying, which is unfortunately an all-too-real part of many people's histories. One can understand why this decision was made, since it allows the set to draw upon so many pop culture tropes connected to the experience ofschool, but one should also understand that the decision will result in some players being uncomfortably reminded of abuse, bullying and degradation they have experienced within the context of school or other aspects of their lives.

Mind you, I don't think Wizards was wrong to include this sort of content, but I do think it a good thing for players who are not themselves impacted by this sort of content be understanding of and sensitive to the fact that other players may have different reactions. If someone reacts in a manner suggesting discomfort or distress, don't be an insensitive jerk about it. Don't play into or over-emphasize the unpleasant aspects of the cards and don't invalidate others' responses by saying insensitive things like "It's just a card." This doesn't apply just to Silverquill or this set, btw. I know of players who are (for example) uncomfortable with game mechanics which steal creatures or subvert a creature's (or player's) will because those players have had the unpleasant real-world experience of being forced to do things against their will or otherwise had their agency violated.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

User avatar
folding_music
minus 75% EDH
Posts: 1169
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by folding_music » 1 week ago

so does Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios // Journey to the Oracle go into Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty EDH, or vice versa? They work outrageously well together...

(I have been seriously looking into Imoti these past few days; I'm writing stories privately and feel like Imoti is a nice stand-in for a character I had in mind, so making a deck around the card seems like a nice exercise! Might be the best Discontinuity, Time Stop, Spelljack deck leader aside from the very best legends in the format, and adding Jadzi to that seems totally ludicrous. Gadwick also fits into the deck as a good card who CAN be cmc=6 but still works fine when cascaded into. Seems really powerful, actually!)

the Silverquill stuff does seem problematic, and it being a genre trope of college-based fiction doesn't really forgive it so much as signal it's a topic which should have been treated more delicately all along. white/black characterized as silently enduring hell for the sake of ambition is culturally messed-up, divorced from a school setting or otherwise. people get permanently broken by situations like those

User avatar
cheonice
Posts: 86
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by cheonice » 1 week ago

Hm, you're right. At first Silverquill looked like a bunch of witty poetry slammers and poets, sarcastic but full of passion for words (and inklings). But yeah... there are some really problematic tropes present. Did anyone at Wizards write something about that aspect of the poet school?

User avatar
JWK
Elder Thing
Posts: 342
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Post by JWK » 1 week ago

cheonice wrote:
1 week ago
Did anyone at Wizards write something about that aspect of the poet school?
In his most recent article, Maro wrote " Also, the college of words seemed to be a great place for the kids who enjoyed verbally putting down the other kids." So, it is clear the decision to connect bullying/mean-kid stuff with Silverquill was intentional and planned, and that they wanted that particular trope to be part of the set.

Which again, makes a certain amount of sense. Using tropes is part of what helps people relate to a setting. At the same time, tropes can also reflect stereotypes (the Vistani in DnD historically reflect unpleasant stereotyptes about the Romani people, and efforts have more recently been made to disconnect the concepts from the stereotypes) and reflect cultural artifacts which perhaps we shouldn't accept and include without question. Bullying and "mean kids" and abuse within academic settings are unfortunate aspects of reality, but perhaps they shouldn't have been incorporated so readily into the fantasy analogue.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

Sporegorger_Dragon
Posts: 248
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 1 week ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 week ago
Good explanation
Just out of curiosity, I checked the rulings for Amass and doubling token-creation.

Apparently, if you control no Army tokens, and you Amass 1 with Doubling Season out, you get two Army tokens but put the counters on only one.

So Amass with the Twins/Doubling Season means you get two 0/0 Zombie Army tokens, but only gets the counters.

This muddles things a bit.

User avatar
cheonice
Posts: 86
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by cheonice » 1 week ago

JWK wrote:
1 week ago
In his most recent article, Maro wrote " Also, the college of words seemed to be a great place for the kids who enjoyed verbally putting down the other kids." So, it is clear the decision to connect bullying/mean-kid stuff with Silverquill was intentional and planned, and that they wanted that particular trope to be part of the set.
Phew, this is at least unexpected, because Wizards seems to be aware of problematic tropes lately. With making this a whole college rather than a few cards they frame it in a weirdly positive way.

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1089
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 49
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 1 week ago

Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
1 week ago
bobthefunny wrote:
1 week ago
Good explanation
Just out of curiosity, I checked the rulings for Amass and doubling token-creation.

Apparently, if you control no Army tokens, and you Amass 1 with Doubling Season out, you get two Army tokens but put the counters on only one.

So Amass with the Twins/Doubling Season means you get two 0/0 Zombie Army tokens, but only gets the counters.

This muddles things a bit.
That is because Amass is worded differently. With the previous discussion, Zaxara says "put counters on *it*" which refers to the token that was just created. Since two are created, there are two "its" to refer to so the action is taken on both.

However, Amass doesn't put counters on "it". Instead, Amass creates a 0/0 token. Then, the instruction is "find an Army creature and put some creatures on that Army". Since it doesn't try to put counters on the token that was just created (though, that is often the only one you will have) and instead makes you choose "an Army" you simply do that.

While the wording prevents things from Doubling Season from working, it is really just a nuance that comes about from the idea that you don't always have to create an Army so there is no way for the ability to refer specifically to the Army it creates. It won't always create one.

Not to say it isn't confusing of course.

Sporegorger_Dragon
Posts: 248
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 1 week ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 week ago
That is because Amass is worded differently. With the previous discussion, Zaxara says "put counters on *it*" which refers to the token that was just created. Since two are created, there are two "its" to refer to so the action is taken on both.

However, Amass doesn't put counters on "it". Instead, Amass creates a 0/0 token. Then, the instruction is "find an Army creature and put some creatures on that Army". Since it doesn't try to put counters on the token that was just created (though, that is often the only one you will have) and instead makes you choose "an Army" you simply do that.

While the wording prevents things from Doubling Season from working, it is really just a nuance that comes about from the idea that you don't always have to create an Army so there is no way for the ability to refer specifically to the Army it creates. It won't always create one.

Not to say it isn't confusing of course.
Ah, yes, I just got it.

With no Army tokens around, Amass N reads:

"If you don't control an Army creature, create a 0/0 black Zombie Army creature token. Choose an Army creature you control. Put N +1/+1 counters on that creature."

So it doesn't actually refer to a specific token, it just grabs any Army available and dumps counters on it.

Got it.

:grin:
This is literally us these past couple of days:


The best comments in that thread are these:



Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”