Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

In theory, sure, but in practice I don't think any of the learn cards are pushed enough. Sparring Regimen is arguably the best and...idk, it's 1/2 a citadel siege + vigilance, minus the alt mode...it's not awful but it seems like a niche card, nothing that's going to see major play. I think they're all balanced around getting a free (albeit weak) card...so like 3/4 or 2/3 of a card. And instead you get to rummage, which is worth maybe 1/4 or 1/3 of a card. It's a big enough difference, especially with these low cmc cards where a lot of the value is in the "learn" text, that it's hard to justify imo.

I guess I will say, though, that learn would have some annoying implications if it did work in commander, specifically because we don't have true sideboards (and to be clear, I've never wanted sideboarding, just wishboarding), so there's nothing else competing for the space...so you may as well use it. If learn spells were the only way to access the sideboard, you'd be sorta compelled to get every lesson within your CI, which would be irritating. That mythic would get real expensive just because every single deck with learn cards would want one "just in case"...and even decks without learn cards might want one, in case they copy an enemy learn spell lol.

I guess on the plus side, you could presumably share your learn pool across all your decks. But still, it does have a bit of the lutri problem where there's no downside (albeit not as much since you do actually need to include something specific in your deck to access them...I don't think most people would spec on copying an enemy lesson). Anyway, another reason that, if wishboards are ever legalized, the 3-card wishboard is the best idea imo. 3 lessons is reasonable to acquire, 20 "just in case" is stupid.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by materpillar » 5 months ago

Multiple Choice - "If X is 4 or more, do all of the above" is easily my favorite text in this set by a lot.




Random lore question... Professor's Warning, Culmination of Studies. Anyone know why Liliana didn't dumpster the Blood Avatar?

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

materpillar wrote:
5 months ago
Random lore question... Professor's Warning, Culmination of Studies. Anyone know why Liliana didn't dumpster the Blood Avatar?
Presumably because they wanted to put the spotlight on Will and Rowan instead of Lili. Which is fine, I guess, but I wish we had more of the lore these days being about non-planeswalkers being competent enough to handle things on their own. I would really, really like to see a couple of sets with no planeswalker presence at all, or maybe just someone like Tamiyo who hangs in the background and mostly observes or provides the non-walkers with some piece of information that turns out to be important, allowing them to solve the problems themselves.

Though I would like to see Arlinn get an actually-good card in the upcoming Innistrad sets.

Also, would anyone care if Lukka got eaten by some random monster and never seen again?
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 5 months ago

materpillar wrote:
5 months ago
Multiple Choice - "If X is 4 or more, do all of the above" is easily my favorite text in this set by a lot.




Random lore question... Professor's Warning, Culmination of Studies. Anyone know why Liliana didn't dumpster the Blood Avatar?
Why deprive the twins of a learning experience? Lili has killed plenty of demons, she doesn't need the practice.
Current EDH Decks: DirkGently's Phelddagrif
Current cEDH: Selvala Brostorm
Retired EDH: Korvold, Goreclaw, Emry, ISBPathfinder's Sythis
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
5 months ago
Random lore question... Professor's Warning, Culmination of Studies. Anyone know why Liliana didn't dumpster the Blood Avatar?
My headcanon is it was a homework assignment.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

The pest token is really cute! Too bad the only good pest producer is Beledros Witherbloom

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Post by tempoEDH » 5 months ago

Haven't seen this thrown around yet, so just figured I'd mention it because it's relevant to note I guess. Baleful Mastery acts as an instant speed interaction to disrupt Oracle lines, it doesn't give the opponent an option to draw a card, it forces it instead (so responding to Oracle trigger by casting Mastery for 2, force them to draw from an empty library with win trigger still on the stack). Definitely not the best answer, especially since as a removal piece it seems rather weak for cEDH pods outside of situations like that, but worth remembering, I guess?
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 5 months ago

tempoEDH wrote:
5 months ago
Haven't seen this thrown around yet, so just figured I'd mention it because it's relevant to note I guess. Baleful Mastery acts as an instant speed interaction to disrupt Oracle lines, it doesn't give the opponent an option to draw a card, it forces it instead (so responding to Oracle trigger by casting Mastery for 2, force them to draw from an empty library with win trigger still on the stack). Definitely not the best answer, especially since as a removal piece it seems rather weak for cEDH pods outside of situations like that, but worth remembering, I guess?
That is worth knowing! I love it when a drawback isn't really one sometimes.
Current EDH Decks: DirkGently's Phelddagrif
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 5 months ago

materpillar wrote:
5 months ago
Random lore question... Professor's Warning, Culmination of Studies. Anyone know why Liliana didn't dumpster the Blood Avatar?
We haven't gotten there in the story. There is a chance she is there and helping and just not in the card art or w/e Will and Rowan learn in Practical Research is the key stopping the avataror Rowan being a power boost in Crackle with Power.
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

All the commanders I'm interested in:

Plargg, Dean of Chaos - already built a sunforger version of him, but tbh I could see him being pretty sick as a standalone piece too. Mistveil plains to reload, while controlling what he hits. Could also easily go voltron using him to rip swords into play. Super cool fun design, and the rummaging ain't a bad add either. Too bad the other side is pretty boring, but it gives us white and that's what counts.

Shadrix Silverquill - I really like the design, but ultimately I'm not sure it gets there for me. Primarily because I think the counter mode is the most build-around-able, but it's also obviously best when going wide, which...meh. Been there, done that. The token is probably the weakest mode overall, and the draw is decent but I don't see a lot of synergy potential. I guess you could just go voltron around the double strike, but that seems kinda boring. Still worth keeping an eye on, though.

Galazeth Prismari - idk why, but the idea of running all the treasure-generating stuff and then fireballing people to death sounds sweet. Unfortunately I expect he'll be co-opted by the Static Orb people and will be persona non grata at casual tables.

Beledros Witherbloom - I find his abilities to be pretty interesting, though probably moreso in theory than reality. In theory I want to do some shenanigans where I use lands to gain enough life that I can keep untapping all the time and doing cool controlly stuff on other peoples' turns. In practice, probably most like you just go "lol Torment of Hailfire" the turn after you cast him. So idk. Interesting design, though, I at least appreciate him being 7cmc.

Rootha, Mercurial Artist - mention on the thread about her - I really like the design but I don't think there's any way to make her good except copying extra turns spells, which is just obnoxious. But maybe I'll think of something.

Killian, Ink Duelist - I love me some targeted removal, and Killian makes it a lot better. Proactively, I think the only real option is to focus on auras. BW auras with a bunch of reactive removal seems kinda neat.

Mavinda, Students' Advocate - Kind of a "feather-lite". I think I'd go the blink route with her, alongside cantrips, and then late-game have some incomplete board wipes that let Mavinda live when you flash them back at steep premium. I'm always a sucker for that mono-white underdog.

Jadzi, Oracle of Archavios - this card is so damn weird. I already threw together a list for the "never cast Jadzi" version, which seems potentially nasty. She pays you off for having a bunch of lands, and for having big spells...I like the first part, not so sold on the second part. Still, idk, it's hard to say. She's definitely very interesting. Might at least throw the 90 land version together for a one-off laugh.

Extus, Oriq Overlord - Saw someone mention a cycling build, which seems neat. Run a bunch of the 1-mana cycling creatures for value, then get free draws stapled onto your spells. Throw in some protection instants/sorceries and removal, alongside some easy ways to get lethal (Hatred, anyone?) and you've got yourself a stew going. The other side is also interesting but probably less my cuppa.

Osgir, the Reconstructor - really cool design, but I'll confess the furthest I've thought is "I guess rummaging and equipment?" When I see RW I just default to equipment mode. Sue me.

Breena, the Demagogue - Definitely less interesting among the precons, but still a fast-growing clock and draw engine. Efficient body. Grows on its own so you're pretty flexible in a control shell. Ugly rules wording, though, yuck. How has wotc somehow still failed to make a commander that adequately pays off the "no, attack THEM." game plan? They've tried so many different variations and they're all so underwhelming.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunharrow » 5 months ago

I wonder if Beledros Witherbloom could get axed in the format. activating 3 times the turn you play it seems kinda dumb.
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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
Breena, the Demagogue - Definitely less interesting among the precons, but still a fast-growing clock and draw engine. Efficient body. Grows on its own so you're pretty flexible in a control shell. Ugly rules wording, though, yuck. How has wotc somehow still failed to make a commander that adequately pays off the "no, attack THEM." game plan? They've tried so many different variations and they're all so underwhelming.
In regards to wording, I don't understand why it wouldn't have worked to just go with "Whenever a player attacks your opponent with the most life or tied for most life ..."? It's a shame that she can't be played in conjunction with Marisi, Breaker of the Coil or even Thantis, the Warweaver though.
Dunharrow wrote:
5 months ago
I wonder if Beledros Witherbloom could get axed in the format. activating 3 times the turn you play it seems kinda dumb.
The untap ability is limited to once a turn though.
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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

I don't feel strongly inclined to build a new deck around any of the commanders from this set (maybe the Commander deck ones; I haven't given them much thought, except for Osgir, who is definitely a possibility). That may change as I give them more thought and see what others do with them, but at the moment I think they'll mostly just end up being cards I run to good effect in decks with other commanders. I have some definite ideas about Jadzi in other decks.
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Post by Hawk » 5 months ago

I'm 110% making some sort of Boros deck from this set. I haven't decided yet on if Quintorious, Field Historian, Osgir, the Reconstructor, Mila, Crafty Companion, or Plargg, Dean of Chaos is helming the deck (I'm very open to someone else in the 99 of the new Commander deck being the pick, actually). I just can't wait to Reconstruct History for four or five cards - such value! Bonus that I can also Sunforger + Mistveil Plains toolbox, Auriok Salvagers loop, or maybe both for fun and profit while also getting incremental value out of Quintorious and stuff like Stonebound Mentor. Oooh, Quint makes spirits - maybe I can also get a Tallowisp package in there? Just so much durdling to be had. Happy to finally have a Boros commander (or Boros strategy, rather) that really tickles my fancy.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 5 months ago

Hawk wrote:
5 months ago
I'm 110% making some sort of Boros deck from this set. I haven't decided yet on if Quintorious, Field Historian, Osgir, the Reconstructor, Mila, Crafty Companion, or Plargg, Dean of Chaos is helming the deck (I'm very open to someone else in the 99 of the new Commander deck being the pick, actually). I just can't wait to Reconstruct History for four or five cards - such value! Bonus that I can also Sunforger + Mistveil Plains toolbox, Auriok Salvagers loop, or maybe both for fun and profit while also getting incremental value out of Quintorious and stuff like Stonebound Mentor. Oooh, Quint makes spirits - maybe I can also get a Tallowisp package in there? Just so much durdling to be had. Happy to finally have a Boros commander (or Boros strategy, rather) that really tickles my fancy.
I'm intrigued as to why Hofri Ghostforge didn't make your list, he seems like the strongest option in a vacuum. The only factpr holding me off him is his (imo) god awful art...

Edit: he really does look like a tiny Steven Seagal if you squint...
Current EDH Decks: DirkGently's Phelddagrif
Current cEDH: Selvala Brostorm
Retired EDH: Korvold, Goreclaw, Emry, ISBPathfinder's Sythis
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Post by cheonice » 5 months ago

I'm really impressed by this set and its ideas! For me, it's the first set since Kaladesh that really speaks to me flavourwise. Historians! Poets and Poetry Slammers! Math nonsense! Expressive Dances!

Lorehold/Boros get's a whole lot of interesting options and sure as hell I will play some of them, maybe even build a new deck!

Galazeth Prismari - I like that dragon. Nice combination of spells and artifacts and a great Treasure commander. Unfortunately he likes Staxx, which makes her a prime target for any removal... But maybe they will let you tap that Howling Mine?

Zimone, Quandrix Prodigy - Her card is not the most interesting design, but she is a strong and flavourful contender for my upcoming Simic deck. Speaking of which...

...Adrix and Nev, Twincasters - They are quite uninspired, but on the other hand... My collection is missing a token deck, so why not try them. You could use all the spells that make token copies of your creatures and call it a day. This could really be a fun take on the token plan!

Breena, the Demagogue - She is another interesting take on the Edric, Spymaster of Trest formula, but I'm not sure, if her plan really works. But I'm interested in any fancy builds someone tries!

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Post by kirkusjones » 5 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
5 months ago

I'm intrigued as to why Hofri Ghostforge didn't make your list, he seems like the strongest option in a vacuum. The only factpr holding me off him is his (imo) god awful art...

Edit: he really does look like a tiny Steven Seagal if you squint...
I definitely want an alter of him with little shooting glasses and a trench coat or kimoomoo.

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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Lorehold does everything that I wanted my old Jor Kadeen deck to do. I almost want to get the precon Commander 2021 deck instead of just singles.
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

Aaaaand commander spoilers. Lots of good stuff, and Lorehold continues to be waaaay better than Boros.
Last edited by Mookie 5 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Guardman » 5 months ago

The Lorehold deck looks really, really nice. Plus it has a ton of good reprints. I especially love Losheel, Clockwork Scholar and Monologue Tax, both of which will fit nicely into the BW artifact deck I've been working on during the pandemic. It's the first prebuilt deck in a long time where I think I might actually buy it straight up.

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Post by illakunsaa » 5 months ago

The boros reprints are kinda lame. The only two money reprints are Hellkite Tyrant and Thousand-Year Elixir. Both cards see very little play and while their price trend is quite high (10€ for elixir, 20€ for dargon) you can get nonenglish copies for about 5€ each.

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Post by Hawk » 5 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
5 months ago
Hawk wrote:
5 months ago
I'm 110% making some sort of Boros deck from this set. I haven't decided yet on if Quintorious, Field Historian, Osgir, the Reconstructor, Mila, Crafty Companion, or Plargg, Dean of Chaos is helming the deck (I'm very open to someone else in the 99 of the new Commander deck being the pick, actually). I just can't wait to Reconstruct History for four or five cards - such value! Bonus that I can also Sunforger + Mistveil Plains toolbox, Auriok Salvagers loop, or maybe both for fun and profit while also getting incremental value out of Quintorious and stuff like Stonebound Mentor. Oooh, Quint makes spirits - maybe I can also get a Tallowisp package in there? Just so much durdling to be had. Happy to finally have a Boros commander (or Boros strategy, rather) that really tickles my fancy.
I'm intrigued as to why Hofri Ghostforge didn't make your list, he seems like the strongest option in a vacuum. The only factpr holding me off him is his (imo) god awful art...

Edit: he really does look like a tiny Steven Seagal if you squint...
Unlike the four I did list, at first glance Hofri does not fill the yard, pull stuff out of the yard, or give you a payoff for using Reconstruct History or a Salvager engine. Hofri is obviously very powerful in an aristocrat-y build or a Spirit tribal-ish build, but he doesn't quite do what I want this deck to do which is get maximum value off of Reconstruct History.

That being said - he actually is just straight better than Quintorius, and he does also trigger Quintorius, Stonebound Mentor, Laelia, the Blade Reforged, and other cards like them which I had missed on my first pass. I hate playing commanders with CMC 5+, especially in non-Green, but Hofri is a strong contender alongside the rest for sure.

-----
Alibou, Ancient Witness doesn't do much for me or the deck I want to build, but the precon looks decent. Hellkite Tyrant is a great reprint, Monologue Tax looks strong without being as obnoxious as Tithe, Archaeomancer's Map looks incredible, and we get all that as well as the expected-at-this-point-but-still-welcome Arcane Signet and Sol Ring reprints. Also glad to see at least one EtB untapped dual (Battlefield Forge). It's a bit of a miss to not get Swords to Plowshares, Talisman of Conviction, Chaos Warp. or Boros Signet, but overall it looks like a fine foundation.

Also a big fan of Study Hall. I like Opal Palace for my generally slower 60-75% meta, but it does nothing for creatures that aren't interested in rumbling or for Planeswalker (and now, instant/sorcery/artifact/enchantment) commanders. Scry is great, and Scry 3-4 in the endgame is almost like draw. I will be particularly excited to slam this in White, Red, and Boros decks like Daretti, Scrap Savant.

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Post by Hermes_ » 5 months ago

Fun fact: Sheldon worked on the commander set this release.
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

I kind of love the flavor of Monologue Tax. Oh my god, some people with their %$#%$#% eternal turns...

It's also way better design for time-saving than stupid smothering tithe. "Do you pay, do you pay, do you pay?" Let's keep triggers that require input from opponents to a minimum, thanks.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Moonlighter
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Post by Moonlighter » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
I kind of love the flavor of Monologue Tax. Oh my god, some people with their %$#%$#% eternal turns...

It's also way better design for time-saving than stupid smothering tithe. "Do you pay, do you pay, do you pay?" Let's keep triggers that require input from opponents to a minimum, thanks.
Yes. I am also thinking that Audacious Reshapers may have a spot in quite a few red decks. I will definitely want to get one for my son's Trash Pope deck. A little scrying makes that a hell of a card.

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