Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Mookie]

I'll note that red's impulsive draw was also fairly underpowered initially - compare Act on Impulse vs Light Up the Stage. Similar story for black's enchantment removal (Mire in Misery / Pharika's Libation vs Feed the Swarm. While Secret Rendezvous still looks somewhat underpowered, it is still a step up from Happily Ever After / Farsight Adept.

[Dragoon]

I'll note that red's impulsive draw was also fairly underpowered initially - compare Act on Impulse vs Light Up the Stage. Similar story for black's enchantment removal (Mire in Misery / Pharika's Libation vs Feed the Swarm. While Secret Rendezvous still looks somewhat underpowered, it is still a step up from Happily Ever After / Farsight Adept.

True, but I still think that this is more than fairly underpowered in my eyes. I think it's worse than Act on Impulse, and red already had Outpost Siege at that point. At least, make it instant so that it can act as a panic button in case of emergency.

[Cyberium]

I'll note that red's impulsive draw was also fairly underpowered initially - compare Act on Impulse vs Light Up the Stage. Similar story for black's enchantment removal (Mire in Misery / Pharika's Libation vs Feed the Swarm. While Secret Rendezvous still looks somewhat underpowered, it is still a step up from Happily Ever After / Farsight Adept.

SR isn't just weak, it's also uncreative. Impulse draw at its dawn speaks red, SR could be entirely blue and nobody would see it as out of flavor. If they're going to test the water on white draw, the least they could do is make it more unique to white color pie.

[DirkGently]

Basic math - +3 cards spread across 3 opponents = 1 card per opponent. You're up 2 cards, so relative to the table you're up 1 card. So, Secret Rendezvous is basically Divination.

Ofc, if there's an opponent who you can ally with, the 3 cards could be neutral or even advantageous. If you're trying to solve a must-answer threat, seeing 6 cards for 3 mana is a hell of a deal. On the flip side, if it's down to 1v1 it's usually pretty terrible. So the power level varies a bit but overall I think it's quite solid. That said, how often do I ever play some generic medium-power draw spell like Harmonize? Basically never. So idk that I'll ever actually play it, but I think it's good.

The more I look at the masteries, he more I love the mechanic. Early-game, they're great value with a negligible downside. Once it's down to 1v1, when it's probably late game and you can afford a little extra, unlike secret rendezvous, you can just pay the extra to avoid the downside. The white and black one especially are super cool. The green one is just a marginal improvement on Explosive Vegetation. The red one is probably my least favorite just because the downside isn't very interesting or political. If you just triple-tutored you're probably un-ally-able unless your deck is pretty underpowered.

[PrimevalCommander]

I think Secret Rendevous is a bad card. You are down 1 card when you play it.
You: spend 1 card to get 3 (net +2 cards)
Opponent: +3 free cards.
Even if you are trying to ally with an opponent, you will eventually have to take them out. Any digging for a removal spell still gets an opponent 2 additional cards even if they draw said answer.

Unless I could reliably break symetry with this card, I'd never play it. But my meta is NOT very political and won't give me much credit for the free Ancestral Recall I just gave them. If you give me 3 cards, I'll be your friend, just long enough to win the game with the free cards you just gave me. Either I get free gas, or maybe draw out of a land pocket with no effort.

[Wallycaine]

Secret Rendezvous is our promised mono-white card draw. Three cards for three mana is a pretty good rate, but symmetry is.... yeah. Political implications, I guess? Alternatively, Alms Collector shenanigans?

In some situation it's better than blue's Vision Skeins, but I was hoping for a Words of Wisdom effect. Why can't they just give Teachings of the Archaics/Tales of the Ancestors to white? I thought white is the catch up color. (And my obligated Hullbreacher complaint).

I'm rather disappointed with WotC's effort in empowering white cards. There are so many ways to give white drawing effects, either triggers on attack, saccing small artifacts, enchantment based taxing, a one-shot spell effect of Mentor of the Meek, or simply cheap preservation spells that grants indestructible with cantrip, etc, and they chose to make it blue-lite. Like, seriously? Is this the best they can come up with?

Ahh yes, because Blue doesn't do triggers on attack or enchantment based taxing. Green doesn't already do one shot spells ala mentor, and white doesn't already have cheap preservation spells that cantrip. And, you know, there's no precedent for giving the opponent cards in white, nor for symmetrical card draw. /s

White's the worst at card draw becomes someone has to be. Giving it something like Teachings of the Archaics is *actually* just making it blue lite, where targeted symmetrical draw is something unique and new, even if you don't like it.

[DirkGently]

I think Secret Rendevous is a bad card. You are down 1 card when you play it.
You: spend 1 card to get 3 (net +2 cards)
Opponent: +3 free cards.
Even if you are trying to ally with an opponent, you will eventually have to take them out. Any digging for a removal spell still gets an opponent 2 additional cards even if they draw said answer.

Unless I could reliably break symetry with this card, I'd never play it. But my meta is NOT very political and won't give me much credit for the free Ancestral Recall I just gave them. If you give me 3 cards, I'll be your friend, just long enough to win the game with the free cards you just gave me. Either I get free gas, or maybe draw out of a land pocket with no effort.

You're ignoring the other two opponents who got nothing out of the whole exchange. Again, 3 cards is an average of 1 per opponent, so you're up +1 cards relative to the rest of the table. And even if you totally ignore political implications, you can give 3 cards to whoever is the least threatening to you, so those 3 cards are going to be, on balance, at least a little better for you than 1 card to each opponent, assuming you don't make a mistake and pick the wrong player. So assuming a 4-player game, it's approximately divination. Not exactly amazing but y'know, playable.

But ofc the real money is in playing it politically. Scrubs say "here's 3 cards, please be my friend". That's trash-tier politics. You can wildly outstrip this with minimal effort by simply saying "I'm casting this card and someone's going to draw 3 cards - anyone want to make me an offer for why it should be them?" and let the value come pouring in. After all, to an opponent, not only is drawing 3 cards a lot of value, but it's additional value insofar as the other opponents AREN'T getting to draw. So they're motivated to offer you a pretty damn good deal, in whatever form that might be.

I'm sure there are some people who probably think they're very good at the game who will say "no, just make the best choice, I won't offer you anything beyond normal threat assessment". And y'know what? Those people lose games to people who do make deals, because they're throwing away value. They'll never get to draw cards off SR, and they'll probably be upset every time someone else outplays them by offering you in exchange for SR for aggregate mutual benefit.

[pokken]

eh, Secret Rendezvous is fine. My main complaint is it could have been instant or cost WW instead of 1WW. It's a bit expensive at sorcery speed for the effect; Harmonize costs 1 mana more for asymmetric. Deeper discount warranted imho.

It's real, real good with Smothering Tithe making it likely virtually free. I will 100% play it in Mangara, the Diplomat - lots of political applications.

Something I have seen in EDH games is that someone is always behind and being able to bring them back into the game can help you a lot if you're not able to control the leaders by yourself. It's why I love cards like Skullwinder - I can usually use it to increase my win rate more than if it were Eternal Witness.

In general I think people underrate effects that allow you to help a single player to benefit yourself while overrating effects that force you to help everyone to benefit yourself.

[DirkGently]

In general I think people underrate effects that allow you to help a single player to benefit yourself

It'd be crazy if there was a commander that did that

[pokken]

It'd be crazy if there was a commander that did that

It'd be crazier if it were available in foil and didn't cost quite such a comical amount of mana But it is unique. I've been thinking about giving it a go myself honestly since I love playing draw-go and haven't had a good deck for it in a while.

[Wallycaine]

eh, Secret Rendezvous is fine. My main complaint is it could have been instant or cost WW instead of 1WW. It's a bit expensive at sorcery speed for the effect; Harmonize costs 1 mana more for asymmetric. Deeper discount warranted imho.

Worth remembering that this is the *uncommon* version of the effect. As is typical, they're being cautious with the power level of new things. Being an instant, in particular, I can see as a power level issue in standard. It'd be extremely strong to fire it off EoT when the opponent has a full or close to full grip, forcing them to discard back down to 7 and reducing the benefit greatly. And even when they get the benefit of drawing cards, control decks would probably still at least consider it at instant (possibly as a sideboard), as there's plenty of decks that can struggle to keep up with control even if they're given cards.

All that said, I'm sure we'll see stronger versions in the future, even if it's just something like slapping a significant amount of draw on a decent creature (No, Farsight Adept, you don't count). They're going to be cautious, test and release weaker versions, and try and find the right power level as they get more experience with the effect.

Edit: Thinking on it, it's also a bit unfair to compare to Harmonize/Concentrate, which are from arguably the second best and best colors for draw. It's like comparing the latest green fight spell to Hero's Downfall or Go for the Throat. They're intentionally worse because green isn't supposed to be super great at removal, just like white isn't intended to be super great at draw. I think there's definitely room to grow for white here, but the intent is still that they'll be the worst at drawing, just that the gulf won't be as wide.

[bobthefunny]

I don't know. I'm not whelmed by Devastating Mastery at all. It may grow on me though.

If I'm paying 6 mana for a wrath, it better be amazing - and hitting all permanents almost gets there, but even that's not that special, since we have Akroma's Vengeance and Hour of Revelation in that slot at that mana cost. Austere Command is more custom tailored as well.

Then we have the alternate cost, which drops the wrath cost to 4... but lets your opponent choose what to keep. It can certainly help with the political alliances, and means you don't need to break the mana rocks of the person who is behind, and 4 cost for an all permanent wrath is quite a good value we haven't see much of - but Hour of Revelation brings it down to 3, without some of the gimmiky stuff you may not want to do in that situation. 2WW may be easier for a number of decks than the WWW of Hour though.

I think I've talked myself into accepting that it has some uses... but I'm not blown away, unlike Baleful Mastery, or even Verdant Mastery which does something a bit new.

===

Secret Rendezvous is just... disappointing, though at least I guess it combos with Smothering Tithe and/or Alms Collector...
3 mana Harmonize is a thing, I guess.

It actually makes it one of the more efficient draw spells, which is fairly hilarious.

===

Also Quandrix Cultivator gives Simic a second ramp slot, which, with the 2 green options, means FOUR simic playable ramp cards this set, and I'm not even counting the Commander option.

Silverquill Silencer at least looks interesting to maybe keep someone's Commander off the board.

[ZenN]

It's pretty basic, but Fracture will definitely see plenty of play. Never as a first choice for spot removal, but somewhere around slot 5+.

[Serenade]

I will try out Decisive Denial. Fight instants are pretty much going to cost 2cmc and having flexibility is nice.

EDIT: (I acquired an Inscription of Abundance but have not tried it out yet.)

[DirkGently]

4 cost for an all permanent wrath is quite a good value we haven't see much of - but Hour of Revelation brings it down to 3, without some of the gimmiky stuff you may not want to do in that situation. 2WW may be easier for a number of decks than the WWW of Hour though.

Hour of revelation is, like...easily the best board wipe of all time for a white-heavy permanent-less control deck. 3 mana to wipe everything is so insane. Mastery not being as strong isn't much of an indictment imo (and ofc sometimes it'll be stronger if the political situation dictates, or if there aren't 10 permanents). I think you're expecting too much.

Granted, wipe-out-everything wipes are really at their best in permanent-light control decks. A deck that likes the selectiveness of Decree because it wants to keep its own permanents alive is probably not going to be overwhelmed by Mastery. Different wipes for different strategies.

[Hawk]

As a devotee of the Dirk-a-grif, I also really dig Devastating Mastery. I think it's less good than the instant-speed ones in the deck and only on par with Hour of Revelation, but very far ahead of Austere Command, Akroma's Wrath, and even 4 CMC wraths like Wrath/Supreme Judgment. I say it's on par with Hour because sometimes you need a wipe early and can't meet the condition, and also sometimes Phelddagrif struggles to find WWW in the early-midgame (at least, it does on my crummy budget-ish manabase). 2WW is a bit more achievable, and the "drawback" is actually a win. It would merit serious consideration with only its alternate mode, but the option to not give opponents cards back in the very endgame puts it over the top.

It's a slamdunk there, but I'd at least consider it in Heliod, Sun-Crowned too; the flexibility is nice and that deck can be aggressive enough that opponents may not be able to rebuild sufficiently.

I'm a lot less excited about Secret Rendezvous, but I'm tempering that disappointment with the knowledge that we aren't going to get the auto-include version of this effect on its first outing. @Mookie already pointed out that the first "impulsive draw" cards in red were bad, and so were the first "enchantment removal" spells in black. It is a positive direction for white, and there's a universe where this was WW or 2W but instant or where this let you scry first or draw one more than your opponents where this would be more widely playable. As it stands, I might think about this in a deck like Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist or Heliod, Sun-Crowned which lack draw and are maindecking Alms Collector, Smothering Tithe, or both for the combo...but it definitely feels really bad, and I imagine it will end up just not being enough. I'd only begrudgingly play Divination in monowhite; this is occasionally better with slick politics or the aforementioned combo pieces but often worse.

[DirkGently]

I'd only begrudgingly play Divination in monowhite; this is occasionally better with slick politics or the aforementioned combo pieces but often worse.

I would argue the default state of the card with no politics and no information is Divination, so long as there are still 4 players in the game. It goes way up if you can exploit it politically or abuse the draw with combo pieces, down if it's a 3p game, and down into the dirt if it's a 1v1.

Overall I think it's roughly equivalent in quality to something like Night's Whisper - a basically solid draw spell that I nevertheless rarely play because it's not particularly synergistic with anything. I think it's better than harmonize but I also never play harmonize. If I played a bunch of mid-sized draw spells in Phelddagrif it'd probably at least be under consideration.

[JWK]

Secret Rendezvous looks great in UB control decks running Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils, and outside that it offers some political possibilities and interacts well with Smothering Tithe . It's a start.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

I suddenly realized Adrix and Nev, Twincasters are terrible with Fractal tokens, since they're all 0/0.

They can't be used with cards from their own college :laugh:

[ZenN]

Secret Rendezvous looks great in UB control decks running Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils, and outside that it offers some political possibilities and interacts well with Smothering Tithe . It's a start.

Also Notion Thief and Alms Collector. But then, Wheel effects also interact favourably with all those things, and are usually going to be better.

[ISBPathfinder]

Really kind of a sad excitement but Bookwurm is a sweet new wurm that is far above the average quality of wurms. I keep thinking about making a low powered wurm deck one of these days and that is a welcome new wurm for the concept.

[Wallycaine]

I suddenly realized Adrix and Nev, Twincasters are terrible with Fractal tokens, since they're all 0/0.

They can't be used with cards from their own college :laugh:

I don't believe that's how the interaction works. Because it's a replacement effect, it'll make it so something like Serpentine Curve puts 2 0/0's into play, and then puts X counters on each.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

I suddenly realized Adrix and Nev, Twincasters are terrible with Fractal tokens, since they're all 0/0.

They can't be used with cards from their own college :laugh:

I don't believe that's how the interaction works. Because it's a replacement effect, it'll make it so something like Serpentine Curve puts 2 0/0's into play, and then puts X counters on each.

It's not a replacement effect; Serpentine Curve puts a 0/0 token into play, then puts the counters on it.

If it were a replacement effect, it would have read "it enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it", like the wording on Hydras and similar 0/0 creatures with counters.

With the Twincasters, all of Quandrix's spells that create Fractal tokens will create two 0/0 tokens, then put the counters on only one of them.

[Wallycaine]

I suddenly realized Adrix and Nev, Twincasters are terrible with Fractal tokens, since they're all 0/0.

They can't be used with cards from their own college :laugh:

I don't believe that's how the interaction works. Because it's a replacement effect, it'll make it so something like Serpentine Curve puts 2 0/0's into play, and then puts X counters on each.

It's not a replacement effect; Serpentine Curve puts a 0/0 token into play, then puts the counters on it.

If it were a replacement effect, it would have read "it enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it", like the wording on Hydras and similar 0/0 creatures with counters.

With the Twincasters, all of Quandrix's spells that create Fractal tokens will create two 0/0 tokens, then put the counters on only one of them.

Zaxara, the Exemplary uses similar wording ("create a 0/0 hydra, then put X +1/+1 counters on it") and when a replacement effect doubles the tokens, you put it on both. Last ruling on their gatherer page: "If an effect, such as that of Parallel Lives, causes Zaxara's ability to create multiple Hydra tokens, they each receive X +1/+1 counters."

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

I don't believe that's how the interaction works. Because it's a replacement effect, it'll make it so something like Serpentine Curve puts 2 0/0's into play, and then puts X counters on each.

It's not a replacement effect; Serpentine Curve puts a 0/0 token into play, then puts the counters on it.

If it were a replacement effect, it would have read "it enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it", like the wording on Hydras and similar 0/0 creatures with counters.

With the Twincasters, all of Quandrix's spells that create Fractal tokens will create two 0/0 tokens, then put the counters on only one of them.

Zaxara, the Exemplary uses similar wording ("create a 0/0 hydra, then put X +1/+1 counters on it") and when a replacement effect doubles the tokens, you put it on both. Last ruling on their gatherer page: "If an effect, such as that of Parallel Lives, causes Zaxara's ability to create multiple Hydra tokens, they each receive X +1/+1 counters."

Hmmm, I see.

But on taking a closer look, Zaxara's ability that puts counters on its Hydra token is separated from its token-producing clause by a comma, while all the Fractal spells have a period. It suggests that Zaxara's counters ability is tied to its token-producing ability, while the Quandrix spells' counter ability isn't. Zaxara's ruling might not apply to the Fractal spells.

I must say, Zaxara's wording is a bit funky, I'm surprised they went with that ruling, honestly.