Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
5 months ago
Yeah, I'm really not seeing the connection. The primary problems with Gifts is reliability (it's fairly trivial to make it into tutoring for a 2 card combo) and Instant speed (letting it fire off EoT before you untap and play the combo). Fervent Mastery does... neither of those things. There's no choice involved, it's purely random. You can pad the numbers a little by fetching redundant things and holding extra cards in hand, but there's always a chance that all the cards you want in hand end up in the grave and all the ones you want in the grave end up in hand (And casting it on an empty hand just gets you a bad Buried Alive). It's not even card advantage, and it certainly isn't an instant to allow for tutoring your combo at EoT.
The EOT thing is true, but the whole thing about gifts is that it's not random, it's much worse than random because its your opponent who decides which cards go where. With random you might get lucky. Anyway I thought we weren't banning for linear combo decks? It's not like doomsday is banned.
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Post by Wallycaine » 5 months ago

pokken wrote:
5 months ago
Does turbo charged gamble create a 1 card combo with
Unburial Rites Auriok Salvagers and Lion's Eye Diamond ? Feels like it to me.

re: Final Parting / Gifts Ungiven

parting lets you pick which one goes in the bin and guarantee it without spending mana on recursion so functionally it's very close to the same mana for combos as Gifts Ungiven

so you can final parting for Reanimate and Razaketh, the Foulblooded for example, whereas with Gifts you have a lot more hoops to jump through for that (since they can put the fattie in your hand and you the need a way to discard it). Same with combo pieces, they put the most inconvenient thing in your hand.
Looks like that would work, though it's a minimum of 8 and more likely to be 10-11 mana to pull it off. And you risk ending up with infinite mana and nothing to do with it.

Either way, as pointed out, Fervent Mastery still isn't instant, and neither is Final Parting. The play patterns for instants and sorceries are very different, so it's quite possible that an instant speed Final Parting would be banned, despite the sorcery speed version not being so.

Edit: Re: Dirk's point above, the lack of randomness is a selling point when you can force your opponent into bad decisions.

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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
5 months ago
Either way, as pointed out, Fervent Mastery still isn't instant, and neither is Final Parting. The play patterns for instants and sorceries are very different, so it's quite possible that an instant speed Final Parting would be banned, despite the sorcery speed version not being so.
The point is that the play pattern for gifts ungiven is very similar to Final Parting in reality, because you require additional sorcery speed setup pieces, such as casting Eternal Witness for something, or casting Faithless Looting from the bin to discard a fattie, or whatever. Gifts piles usually require 3-5 additional sorcery speed mana that Final Parting does not.

In my experience, Final Parting ends games the turn it's cast most of the time. It has a slightly higher mana investment but it's way more consistent and has a lower failure rate. Gifts piles can be hosed by Unburial Rites being gone or Faithless Looting being unavailable or whatever. It's very similar to the old Flash Hulk chains where they required like 5 cards to be in your deck to work....worked great in CEDH but less in casual where your games drag out and you have the opportunity to have lost your Narcomoeba.

Fervent Mastery -- i don't think is really comparable to either, it has a combo application that's narrow 3-color shenanigans, not really on the scale as FP or Gifts which can work all kinds of magic with all kinds of setups.

It is pretty cool at searching for 3 dredge cards I guess lol.

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Post by Cyberium » 5 months ago

Quandrix is... quite disappointing at the moment of this post. I thought there would be more math related stuff like plus and minus, compare and contrast, X and Y, etc, instead we get so many land-n-draw stuff. Other colleges appear to have broken the popular Ravnica cells, yet Quandrix remains Simic, or just typical UG.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 5 months ago

Cyberium wrote:
5 months ago
Quandrix is... quite disappointing at the moment of this post. I thought there would be more math related stuff like plus and minus, compare and contrast, X and Y, etc, instead we get so many land-n-draw stuff. Other colleges appear to have broken the popular Ravnica cells, yet Quandrix remains Simic, or just typical UG.
Not that I'm a fan of UG in any form or flavor, but lands-n-draw as a theme does give them a mathematically significant advantage over some of the other colleges in gameplay.

Edit: using chaff like Fervent Mastery to justify unbanning monsters like Gifts is some pretty thin rhetorical soup. Apples, meet oranges.
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Post by cheonice » 5 months ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
5 months ago
Ecological Appreciation looks pretty solid. Anything X=3 or higher and you are even, or cheating on mana value. Good toolbox card that can be political. Getting 2 of the best 2-4 drops in your deck directly into play could easily be worth the card. I can think of several piles at 2 and 3 that would be worth the mana even without a known boardstate.

What happens if you run out of creatures and can't find 4 of them? Maybe you already tutored/played all but 3 of your creatures at that cmc and can't complete the requirement. I assume the spell fizzles and you wasted the mana and card. Same for the card that searches 4 basics.
Luckily both cards say "up to", so you can choose to find less than four. Not that great with Ecological Appreciation but alas...

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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

Thoughts on today's stuff...
  • Accomplished Alchemist is an interesting payoff for lifegain decks, and capable of generating a lot of mana. Four mana is a lot for a mana dork though.
  • Fervent Mastery is... interesting. Triple Gamble seems strong, That said, I think it's fine - it doesn't do anything that Intuition wasn't already capable of doing.
  • Strixhaven Stadium seems like a fun little minigame, stapled to a Manalith. I think that better 3 mana rocks exist, but there are definitely decks capable of taking advantage of it. Will probably also draw a ton of hate though.
  • Teach by Example is interesting primarily because this effect usually doesn't show up at common.
  • Zimone, Quandrix Prodigy is.... significantly tamer than Thrasios, Triton Hero. A fine option if you want a less threatening Simic commander, I suppose.
  • Ecological Appreciation is.... also interesting. I feel like it's best as a double Green Sun's Zenith for value, which is pretty solid. Lack of control over which creatures you get does reduce consistency significantly though.
  • Conspiracy Theorist is interesting for any decks that do a lot of discarding. Jeskai Ascendancy shenanigans come to mind.
  • Dragon's Approach is an interesting Shadowborn Apostle variant. Red has fewer tutors for Thrumming Stone, but you don't need as many cards to trigger it. Presumably just a meme deck, but you could probably just burn your opponents out by casting enough of them.

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Post by folding_music » 5 months ago

Echoing Equation can copy Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty and it's id=ug so I guess that's a way that deck can win on the spot =P I suppose that's a late game thing and nothing scary though

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Post by FenrirRex » 5 months ago

pokken wrote:
5 months ago
Does turbo charged gamble create a 1 card combo with
Unburial Rites Auriok Salvagers and Lion's Eye Diamond ? Feels like it to me.

re: Final Parting / Gifts Ungiven

parting lets you pick which one goes in the bin and guarantee it without spending mana on recursion so functionally it's very close to the same mana for combos as Gifts Ungiven

so you can final parting for Reanimate and Razaketh, the Foulblooded for example, whereas with Gifts you have a lot more hoops to jump through for that (since they can put the fattie in your hand and you the need a way to discard it). Same with combo pieces, they put the most inconvenient thing in your hand.
It's the instant speed thing that really makes gifts a problem- adding that extra layer of potential lack of interactivity can prove problematic. With parting, super gamble, and even Buried Alive you are at least telegraphing at sorcery speed.

Still excited to jam it into my reanimator decks though.

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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

FenrirRex wrote:
5 months ago
It's the instant speed thing that really makes gifts a problem- adding that extra layer of potential lack of interactivity can prove problematic. With parting, super gamble, and even Buried Alive you are at least telegraphing at sorcery speed.
The problem with Gifts is that you can't really do any of its finishing stuff at instant speed. All the gifts combo packages win at sorcery speed at best. So it doesn't telegraph any less than untapping and slamming a final parting.

Now, if you're using gifts for other stuff like finding answers or whatever, sure, it can be a surprise gotcha - but it's a lot worse than Intuition at that.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 5 months ago

I'm hoping at some point they make an echoing equation with monoblue color id, because that's the best way to date to get exponential Orvars.
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Post by FenrirRex » 5 months ago

pokken wrote:
5 months ago
FenrirRex wrote:
5 months ago
It's the instant speed thing that really makes gifts a problem- adding that extra layer of potential lack of interactivity can prove problematic. With parting, super gamble, and even Buried Alive you are at least telegraphing at sorcery speed.
The problem with Gifts is that you can't really do any of its finishing stuff at instant speed. All the gifts combo packages win at sorcery speed at best. So it doesn't telegraph any less than untapping and slamming a final parting.

Now, if you're using gifts for other stuff like finding answers or whatever, sure, it can be a surprise gotcha - but it's a lot worse than Intuition at that.
But the timing is the point, you untap and slam a final parting you're still burning five mana to do so and are only so likely to still have the resources to fire off whatever you tutored for (which may typically be fatty x Reanimate, but now that's still six mana at sorcery speed to reanimate a threat)- I can't say I've ever seen a parting grab anything more back breaking that it can do on the same turn. This often leaves an entire rotation of the table if the parting has telegraphed anything too terrible.

Gifts, on the other hand, fires off on an opponents EOT, and can immediately go for your chosen combo on your turn, with all your resources available. Absolutely night and day.

I really like both sides of Augmenter Pugilist // Echoing Equation- punch wizard may not be exciting, but a beatstick when you have no relevant copy targets is still very much a thing.

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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

FenrirRex wrote:
5 months ago
ut the timing is the point, you untap and slam a final parting you're still burning five mana to do so and are only so likely to still have the resources to fire off whatever you tutored for (which may typically be fatty x Reanimate, but now that's still six mana at sorcery speed to reanimate a threat)- I can't say I've ever seen a parting grab anything more back breaking that it can do on the same turn. This often leaves an entire rotation of the table if the parting has telegraphed anything too terrible.

Gifts, on the other hand, fires off on an opponents EOT, and can immediately go for your chosen combo on your turn, with all your resources available. Absolutely night and day.
Final parting for reanimate + razaketh wins the game that turn if you have one other creature (and 1 or 2 more mana, not like 8 mana is rare in commander). Replicating that in Gifts only really works with Dread Return and 3 creatures, or Unburial Rites. And you still have to pay that mana for gifts and wait an entire turn cycle to be able to avoid "telegraphing" a win that happens immediately.

You're really overvaluing the end step of gifts in a combo situation; its templating makes it so you have to spend a ton of mana and have very specific set of cards to be able to go off with it (or be playing a specific general).

There are a lot of other combo sequences with Gifts but they're all pretty pricy outside of maybe a Thassa's Oracle line I haven't thought of yet.

Gifts is a better value spell than FP, but it's only medium as a value spell outside of specific commanders - people can usually bone your gifts piles.

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Post by bobthefunny » 5 months ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
5 months ago
Ecological Appreciation looks pretty solid. Anything X=3 or higher and you are even, or cheating on mana value. Good toolbox card that can be political. Getting 2 of the best 2-4 drops in your deck directly into play could easily be worth the card. I can think of several piles at 2 and 3 that would be worth the mana even without a known boardstate.

What happens if you run out of creatures and can't find 4 of them? Maybe you already tutored/played all but 3 of your creatures at that cmc and can't complete the requirement. I assume the spell fizzles and you wasted the mana and card. Same for the card that searches 4 basics.
  1. Spells are only countered (fizzled) if they have no legal targets when it tries to resolved. Ecological Appreciation has no targets by default, so it can not ever fizzle.
  2. Ecological Appreciation has the text "up to" so you can find fewer cards, should you choose, but even if it did not have that clause, a spell tries to do as much as possible when it resolves. eg. Gaea's Balance can find a single land if you run out of other options. Note that if you only 'find' 2 options, they'll just get shuffled into your library though.
  3. Spells that search for a card with a defined quantity (such as search for a land, or search for a creature), you may always choose to 'fail to find' one or more of the objects.
  4. Ecological Appreciation also searches your GY. This makes it far easier to find your choices , even after you've already tutored them.
  5. Ecological Appreciation also says "mana value x or less", giving you plenty more choices than you envision.
In short, at X=3, you can pull a Wood Elves and Burnished Hart from your deck, and a Farhaven Elf and Sakura-Tribe Elder from your graveyard, and call it a day.

Or you know, something far more dastardly. It's a bit expensive, but I like it from the perspective of potential politics in commander to return things like Acidic Slime in cahoots with another player.

===

I see green getting 2 more good ramp spells this set,

Verdant Mastery is a solid extra double ramp at the 4 slot to go along with Explosive Vegetation options. Won't be the ideal for every deck, but helping out the player who's behind will make for better casual games, and the extra land in hand for the next turn's land drop is quite the benefit. The alternate 6 cost mode may even see some play in the later game too.
Emergent Sequence gives us a new Rampant Growth, which is an effect we haven't seen at 2 mana in a while. Making the land a creature is quite the drawback though, but could have some positive applications in a number of decks.

To top it off, Simic gets the middle child between Growth spiral and Urban Evolution , although better, since it's instant, and you can drop the land on an opponents' turn.

Baleful Mastery is absolutely nuts, and I wonder when White will get their "premium removal with a benefit for an opponent" slice of the pie back. Likewise Resculpt is pretty nuts. The step from 3/3 to 4/4 is actually pretty big over Pongify, but the lack of flying which plagued Hour of Need and Angelic Ascension is very big.

I'm still waiting for white to get any sort of defined slice of the color pie outside of Semester's End.
Last edited by bobthefunny 5 months ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

Body of Research. Hey, it's a Simic card that sort of punishes you for drawing so much cards. :P
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
Body of Research. Hey, it's a Simic card that sort of punishes you for drawing so much cards. :P
It's also, presumably, the largest vanilla six mana creature available. An interesting item to add to the 'how big does a vanilla creature have to be' topic. It's also somewhat amusing alongside Greater Good / Rishkar's Expertise.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

Mookie wrote:
5 months ago
Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
Body of Research. Hey, it's a Simic card that sort of punishes you for drawing so much cards. :P
It's also, presumably, the largest vanilla six mana creature available. An interesting item to add to the 'how big does a vanilla creature have to be' topic. It's also somewhat amusing alongside Greater Good / Rishkar's Expertise.
And Fling. Surrak might like this one quite a bit.
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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

Hey, they even printed Team Pennant to go along nicely with it. :P
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Post by darrenhabib » 5 months ago

benjameenbear wrote:
5 months ago
darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
I think Wandering Archaic is actually going to be an underrated card probably for all it's existence.
The sort of value you can get off it, especially in more competitive games will always be great as people just don't pay for these type of effects.
It's just one of those cards that is hard to see the face value at first, but I bet is going to be a monster of value unless removed.
Therefore I don't think it will see much play, but really should be on peoples radars.
I 100% agree @darrenhabib. The more competitive or streamlined your deck is, the more value the Archaic will generate. It stops counter wars cold. Can we just reflect on that fact for minute? WOTC printed a card that lets you ALWAYS win a counter war unless your opponent has a significant amount of mana available. Free tutors on what was supposed to be an opponents game-winning turn. You have a massive draw spell you need to resolve a la Ad Nauseam? Better have 7 mana for that bad boy PLUS mana open to stop the counter wars that will happen And even if it's only copying cantrip spells (like Preordain or Brainstorm) I will take FREE card selection every game to further my plans.

It's a pure colorless card, so you can ritual into it on T2/T3 consistently and it's NOT an instant or sorcery spell itself, meaning that it dodges a significant amount of stack interaction and removal spells at cEDH style tables. When I saw it I remember my jaw dropping and thinking "Oh no, they printed a new Rhystic Study". Even if it's 5 mana, people will still find a way to cast it quickly and protect it because it can generate SO MUCH free value.

Accordingly, the card scales DOWN in power the less competitive you are imo, where permanents are more prevalent in games.

This is one of the few cards I personally preordered immediately when I saw.
I think people will make this argument in their own heads that the 2 can just be spent to negate it, therefore it won't get value. But as we all know a Rhystic Study does get value because games play out on very tight mana margins.
The other thing that people won't quite factor in is that the difference between casting a card for free and drawing a card is waaaaaaaaaaaay more advantages.

A turn one Mana Vault followed by a turn two Wandering Archaic is GG in cEDH games unless it is removed imo.
As you've pointed out it stops Counterspell wars stone cold dead.
Opponent are going to need additional mana to cast a Silence to try and combo otherwise it gets copied and that would be awkward for opponent.
Even if they go for Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation they would have to run the gauntlet (if they don't pay for it) because you can Demonic Consultation in desperation for your own Mental Misstep (or whatever).

Now I'm not saying it goes into every deck, but it is colorless and if you have decks that struggle for advantages (because of color pie or whatever) then Wandering Archaic can be a premium option.
But ultimately it is probably going to be ignored by the majority of the commander player base because it doesn't have an imaginable known quantity of its value.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

I am already adding Wandering Archaic to two decks (Ruric Thar and Rebbec/Silas) and considering it for a third (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain). It is obviously insane in cEDH, but it strikes me as one of the cards from this set that will be very strong in all but the most durdly of non-cEDH metas.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 5 months ago

If everyone everywhere is talking about how underrated something is, it's probably not that underrated.
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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
5 months ago
If everyone everywhere is talking about how underrated something is, it's probably not that underrated.
Maybe, but there are tons of cards that get a boatload of attention when spoiled, but then you almost never see them in play.
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

Crackle with Power is to Comet Storm as Torment of Hailfire is to Exsanguinate..... or something like that. Doesn't scale quite as quickly as Torment, but if you want to burn three opponents for 20+ damage, it costs 14 mana, in comparison to Comet Storm's 24 - a pretty significant improvement, and in range of being cast off a single Mana Geyser. Sorcery speed, but that doesn't really matter if your opponents are getting burnt out that turn.

Devastating Mastery is an interesting Planar Cleansing variant... but also seems outclassed by Hour of Revelation.

Secret Rendezvous is our promised mono-white card draw. Three cards for three mana is a pretty good rate, but symmetry is.... yeah. Political implications, I guess? Alternatively, Alms Collector shenanigans?

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Post by Cyberium » 5 months ago

Mookie wrote:
5 months ago
Devastating Mastery is an interesting Planar Cleansing variant... but also seems outclassed by Hour of Revelation.
Why the WWWW though? I imagine such drastic white mana is reserved for epic spells like Balance, not just a board wipe #X.
Mookie wrote:
5 months ago
Secret Rendezvous is our promised mono-white card draw. Three cards for three mana is a pretty good rate, but symmetry is.... yeah. Political implications, I guess? Alternatively, Alms Collector shenanigans?
In some situation it's better than blue's Vision Skeins, but I was hoping for a Words of Wisdom effect. Why can't they just give Teachings of the Archaics/Tales of the Ancestors to white? I thought white is the catch up color. (And my obligated Hullbreacher complaint).

I'm rather disappointed with WotC's effort in empowering white cards. There are so many ways to give white drawing effects, either triggers on attack, saccing small artifacts, enchantment based taxing, a one-shot spell effect of Mentor of the Meek, or simply cheap preservation spells that grants indestructible with cantrip, etc, and they chose to make it blue-lite. Like, seriously? Is this the best they can come up with?

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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

As lord Phelddagrif, let me just say that Devastating Mastery is absolutely amazing and anyone criticizing it will be put in the stocks.

It's comparable to Hour of Revelation...just depends on what the table looks like. 3 cEDH decks? Worse. 2 80% decks and a 50% deck that could be a useful ally? much better.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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