Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 7 months ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
7 months ago
Still, I guess there's a very real possibility that Harry Potter is such a mainstream-codified representation of the trope that any magic school will automatically feel similar, like Disney with fairy tales.
Could be this.

Although, to be fair, I'd have been much happier with a wizard school derived more from Earthsea than Hogwarts, but I'll be happy enough so long as there's no young boy with a scar on his forehead.

Wait....Ged/Sparrowhawk had a scar on his face too. Damn, wizard school tropes run deep.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 7 months ago

I actually laughed out loud when I saw the Boros command clocked in at five converted mana cost mana value. And, of course, the two blue ones are the best and most versatile. I swear to Christ, sometimes I wonder if WotC even plays their own game.

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Post by pokken » 7 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
7 months ago
I actually laughed out loud when I saw the Boros command clocked in at five converted mana cost mana value
Wow it's pretty bad :)

indestructible and haste on an instant is kinda weird that it's the same mode, and that's the only mode that's particularly good :p

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Post by RxPhantom » 7 months ago

The art on the Boros one makes me think it came from an Un-set. Magical machine gun scrolls. Gimme a break.
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Post by Serenade » 7 months ago

I like the Golgari one. T2 you get a fetch back AND snipe a rock or elf? Nice!
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Post by Wallycaine » 7 months ago

pokken wrote:
7 months ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
7 months ago
I actually laughed out loud when I saw the Boros command clocked in at five converted mana cost mana value
Wow it's pretty bad :)

indestructible and haste on an instant is kinda weird that it's the same mode, and that's the only mode that's particularly good :p
The haste is presumably mostly there to allow the 3/2 to swing if you're using it offensively. I'm also not sure it's really that bad when you think about it in terms of an ETB creature. A 5 mana 3/2 flash that gives you the choice of "Anthem+indestructible/haste", "Lightning Helix", or "mulldrifter impersonation" doesn't seem terrible in Boros, and it gives you more flexibility than that, since you can always choose not to get the dude. Obviously it has the downsides of not being blinkable, but obviously being a non-creature can be a positive at times as well.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 7 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
7 months ago
Anyway these are hot trash for commander.
I think the UR, UG, and BG ones are playable. Not Cryptic Command or Austere Command levels of playable, but solid little value cards. These things are made for people like me.
Serenade wrote:
7 months ago
I like the Golgari one. T2 you get a fetch back AND snipe a rock or elf? Nice!
It also enables your graveyard strategies. Too bad the last mode is pretty garbage, though I have killed people with Sign in Blood before, so...

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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

If I was ranking each mode of "how much would I pay for this as a standalone card" in mana value (kinda psyched we're ditching CMC as a term, I remember thinking it sounded incredibly clunky all the way back in 2001) I think it'd look something like:
Silverquill: 1, 1, 0, 1
Witherbloom: 1, 0, 0, -1(?)
Quandrix: 1, 0, 0, 0
Prismari: 0, 0, 0, 1
Lorehold: 0, 3, 2, 2

I think this kinda shows that there are...not amazing. Of course, you have to keep in mind that you're getting 2 effects for one card, so that does make it somewhat better.

They're all pretty even, but I think my ranking is:
Lorehold (RW)
Witherbloom (BG)
Quandrix (UG)
Prismari (UR)
Silverquill (BW)

Silverquill is like a worse ojutai command. It's a sorcery, you pay a life for the draw, and the other modes seem pretty niche. Ojutai command kinda sucks butts but at least counter a creature is a lot better than sac a creature. This one seems like the clear worst to me.

Prismari I think people are way overrating. It's too targeted imo. 2 damage might be good but it also might be useless. Same for destroy an artifact. These modes are dependent on what your opponents are doing. Loot twice and get a treasure are just...so mediocre for the cost. If you've got a deck that explicitly cares about the graveyard (or treasure) then this could be strong but otherwise I just don't think it's going to be reliable enough, especially not at 3cmc. There are way more versatile answers for less mana.

Quandrix I'm kind of sad about because in theory it's one of the few recent UG spells that actually fits into Phelddagrif but it's still...eh. Three narrow answers that are, for the most part, weaker than just a counterspell, and the value mode is pretty low-impact. Answers tend to pair badly because a lot of the time, when you need to counter an artifact/enchantment, it won't be an ideal time to bounce or grave tuck, so you'll often fall back on the mediocre +1 counter mode.

Witherbloom is a little hard to compare because it's so cheap, but when I look at a fringe card like Grim Discovery it's like...oh yeah that's probably just better. Killing some random mana rock or dork on T2 is really low value in multiplayer, and the -3/-1 is so narrow later, with the lifedrain being obviously very low impact though at least reliable. I could imagine the destroy clause is enough to make this semi-useful in a cEDH context maybe, but in an average game it seems too narrow to count for much. I still think it's ok because the land recursion is ok, and the removal modes will hit in a meaningful way occasionally with the lifedrain as a fallback, but it's far from an all-star. Paying 2 to get a land into hand is pretty atrocious unless you're defending a cabal coffers or cradle or something, and it's not even guaranteed to do that unless you've cracked a fetch (which is certainly not guaranteed on turn 2 when you likely most want this mode).

Lorehold I'm sure I'll catch flak for saying is the best, but y'know at least it does meaningful stuff. The indestructible mode is pretty versatile and could make a huge impact on the game by countering a boardwipe or turning a big combat. The sac + draw mode is some actual instant-speed draw in RW which mean you're not punished for holding this up unlike other board-protection spells. And lightning helix is some decent interaction which could pair decently with the draw mode EOT if you've got already got something to sac. The 3/2 is pretty meh but it does synergize ok with the indestructible mode and the sac mode, and could even be a decent way to blow out lethal math by making a blocker and helixing something to death. Not a card that'll always get played or anything, but at least it'll always feel like a real card.
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maeos
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Post by maeos » 7 months ago

i personally really like the silverquill command cause of the edict. it's great for dealing with voltron commanders or creature lite decks and it has reanimation as well for getting back any aristocrats that might be in the yard.

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Post by capitacommunist » 7 months ago

I think Prismari Command is the best of the five. Kolaghan's Command has always impressed through the usefulness of Shatter/Shock/Disentomb, and I think this will be similar with Careful Study as the third mode.
Lorehold Command could have costed 4, but it at least has impactful modes and will always be useful with the fallback of a 5 mana inspiration on an empty board, but also good if you're ahead. Given that people are still playing a lot of clunky ways to draw cards in Boros, this can be a more proactive alternative.
Witherbloom Command is more geared to a cedh meta where the non creature mode and -3/-1 are more relevant, but this will generally be a two mana two for one. In Golgari I struggle to see this beating out instant speed answers, or other two for ones such as Grim Discovery, however, relegating it to niche status.
Quandrix Command and Silverquill Command I cannot imagine playing in edh: no combination of modes is worth the mana cost of the spell, and for both many of the modes are not worth a card.
Overall excited to see an enemy set again.

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Post by NZB2323 » 7 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
Prismari I think people are way overrating. It's too targeted imo. 2 damage might be good but it also might be useless. Same for destroy an artifact.These modes are dependent on what your opponents are doing. Loot twice and get a treasure are just...so mediocre for the cost. If you've got a deck that explicitly cares about the graveyard (or treasure) then this could be strong but otherwise I just don't think it's going to be reliable enough, especially not at 3cmc. There are way more versatile answers for less mana.
Those are 2 of the modes on Kolaghan's Command. Making 1 opponent discard 1 card that they get to choose isn't strong in EDH, and returning 1 creature card from your graveyard to your hand for 3 mana isn't great value.

Most blue decks like having cards in the GY with cards like Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Snapcaster Mage, Mission Briefing, etc.

I'll definitely test it in my Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck. It'll probably end up replacing Decoy Gambit or Commit // Memory.
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
7 months ago
Those are 2 of the modes on Kolaghan's Command. Making 1 opponent discard 1 card that they get to choose isn't strong in EDH, and returning 1 creature card from your graveyard to your hand for 3 mana isn't great value.
And Kolaghan's Command is a great card in modern or whatever, but in commander...eh, not so much. It's not unplayable but it's not great. For the same cost you could be playing Bedevil which basically does the same thing those modes could do except with way more reliability.

Kinda unfair to say "raise dead isn't worth 3 mana"...well of course it's not, since that's only 1/2 of what the card does. If it was 3 mana worth of value that would be insane. I'd personally take Raise Dead over Careful Study sight unseen, but ofc that's deck dependent. When I have played KC, it was usually because I wanted a raise dead in the mid/late, and the potential to snipe a good target was just upside. I'd imagine the same would be true for looting with PC, but I think general-purpose looting/rummaging has more competition.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's unplayable or anything. The power levels are honestly quite close for all these except the BW one. If I was rating their potential out of 10, I'd say it's something like:

WB: 2/10
BG: 5.7/10
GU: 5.5/10
UR: 5.3/10
WR: 6/10

Personally I think the flexibility of commit // memory is really strong in a non-cEDH meta. decoy gambit always looked awful to me, though. I'd cut it for a land tbh.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 7 months ago

The cards are mostly crap, but makes me interested about the flavor and its execution on enemy color pairs.
I hope that orzhov won't be just draining life, boros won't be just combat and simic won't be just broken stuff.

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Post by folding_music » 7 months ago

Witherbloom one ain't at all crap. I mean I've cast Regrowth to pick up a land before, pretty sure this card is better than that =P I don't think it should've been instant either, there'd be circumstances where it could kill two permanents at instant speed and you're only spending two mana...

First option is where it's at, then you add a custom piece of removal to that and never play the last clause unless someone's literally at 2. Putting my stamp of approval on it!

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Post by capitacommunist » 7 months ago

folding_music wrote:
7 months ago
Witherbloom one ain't at all crap. I mean I've cast Regrowth to pick up a land before, pretty sure this card is better than that =P I don't think it should've been instant either, there'd be circumstances where it could kill two permanents at instant speed and you're only spending two mana...

First option is where it's at, then you add a custom piece of removal to that and never play the last clause unless someone's literally at 2. Putting my stamp of approval on it!
I don't think it's bad, but I have a hard time seeing myself playing this over Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, Maelstrom Pulse and the abundant other two for ones at two mana (Night's Whisper et al, Grim Discovery), which answer more threats or are more proactive. Golgari is a very strong guild with great removal and I think this is too limited to compete there. I think it could actually be best in cedh, as this does have potential to take out two stax pieces at once, but even there cmc 2 and 1 toughness is too limiting I think.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 7 months ago

Lorehold almost goes in Feather, but is one or two mana too expensive.
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Post by Gashnaw » 7 months ago

First impression of strixhaven are kinda meh. Hoping to see more but right now they still feel like the ravnica guilds.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 7 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
7 months ago
The art on the Boros one makes me think it came from an Un-set. Magical machine gun scrolls. Gimme a break.
I hope that there is more art similar to this. I know that I like to machine gun spells in Feather.
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Post by NZB2323 » 7 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
7 months ago
Those are 2 of the modes on Kolaghan's Command. Making 1 opponent discard 1 card that they get to choose isn't strong in EDH, and returning 1 creature card from your graveyard to your hand for 3 mana isn't great value.
And Kolaghan's Command is a great card in modern or whatever, but in commander...eh, not so much. It's not unplayable but it's not great. For the same cost you could be playing Bedevil which basically does the same thing those modes could do except with way more reliability.

Kinda unfair to say "raise dead isn't worth 3 mana"...well of course it's not, since that's only 1/2 of what the card does. If it was 3 mana worth of value that would be insane. I'd personally take Raise Dead over Careful Study sight unseen, but ofc that's deck dependent. When I have played KC, it was usually because I wanted a raise dead in the mid/late, and the potential to snipe a good target was just upside. I'd imagine the same would be true for looting with PC, but I think general-purpose looting/rummaging has more competition.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's unplayable or anything. The power levels are honestly quite close for all these except the BW one. If I was rating their potential out of 10, I'd say it's something like:

WB: 2/10
BG: 5.7/10
GU: 5.5/10
UR: 5.3/10
WR[card][/card]: 6/10

Personally I think the flexibility of commit // memory is really strong in a non-cEDH meta. decoy gambit always looked awful to me, though. I'd cut it for a land tbh.
Bedevil is a good card, but it's not a 2-for-1 and can't get you a card back from your GY.

My point is raise dead + making 1 opponent discard a card that they get to choose for 3 mana isn't worth it, which isn't totally fair, but this is what you said about the UR Command:
Loot twice and get a treasure are just...so mediocre for the cost.
Most of the time you won't have to pick those 2 modes. Sol Ring is the most played card in commander, and other mana rocks see a lot of play. You'll see Mana Vault and Mana Crypt at cEDH games and Izzet Signet and other signets in casual games. Swiftfoot Boots and Lightning Greaves see plenty of play. The 2 damage can kill a Hullbreacher, Notion Thief, Opposition Agent, Aven Mindcensor, Deathrite Shaman, Kaalia of the Vast, Captain Sisay, Tymna the Weaver, Lotus Cobra, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Scute Swarm, Collector Ouphe, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.

Looting twice or getting a treasure may not be as good as raise dead, but they're both better than making an opponent discard a card. Niv-Mizzet, Parun is always looking for more ramp, and this isn't the best ramp card, but I can play it at my opponent's end step turn 2 or 3, and then during my next turn I'd have enough mana for Temporal Manipulation, Time Warp, Evacuation, or Gilded Lotus.

I always thought Decoy Gambit had potential as a 3-for-1 instant, but I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet.
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Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
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WG Captain Sisay land destruction
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Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
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Post by tstorm823 » 7 months ago

I know why they designed them the way they did, to avoid rules situations where a target gets removed and the entire multi-moded spell fizzles, but it personally kills me how good they've gotten at making commands un-radiateable. Like, I just want commands that let me multiply effects that I'm not supposed to by targeting Precursor Golem with another part of the same command, but instead they make 4 commands that HAVE to have multiple targets, and 1 that has 3 lines that don't target and 1 line that targets twice on its own. There is no way to cast any of these commands with a single target.
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Post by Wallycaine » 7 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
7 months ago
I know why they designed them the way they did, to avoid rules situations where a target gets removed and the entire multi-moded spell fizzles, but it personally kills me how good they've gotten at making commands un-radiateable. Like, I just want commands that let me multiply effects that I'm not supposed to by targeting Precursor Golem with another part of the same command, but instead they make 4 commands that HAVE to have multiple targets, and 1 that has 3 lines that don't target and 1 line that targets twice on its own. There is no way to cast any of these commands with a single target.
Technically, Witherbloom Command, Prismari Command and Silverquill Command can all be cast with a single target player or opponent, and Quandrix Command can be cast with a single target creature (to both bounce it and put 2 +1/+1 counters on it!), but yes, none of them can really be profitably radiated. Closest is probably Witherbloom letting you drain all your opponents for 2, mill each of them 3, and then return a land for each opponent, but that's probably not worth spending 2 cards to do. Second place might be radiating a Prismari Command with Narset, Parter of Veils out, but none of them work well with Precursor Golem.

Edit: Actually, even Lorehold Command can be radiated, and might be the closest to a valuable pick? The targetting mode won't do anything since you'll deal the player 3 damage and then gain them 3 life, but it still means you can get one of the other 3 effects repeated a number of times equal to the players in the game. Too bad there's not a cheap and easy way to radiate when targetting players, like there is with precursor golem.

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Post by Serenade » 7 months ago

https://mtg-jp.com/reading/publicity/0034793/

The Japanese versions of those alt art cards look terrific.
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
7 months ago
My point is raise dead + making 1 opponent discard a card that they get to choose for 3 mana isn't worth it, which isn't totally fair, but this is what you said about the UR Command:
Loot twice and get a treasure are just...so mediocre for the cost.
Most of the time you won't have to pick those 2 modes. Sol Ring is the most played card in commander, and other mana rocks see a lot of play. You'll see Mana Vault and Mana Crypt at cEDH games and Izzet Signet and other signets in casual games. Swiftfoot Boots and Lightning Greaves see plenty of play. The 2 damage can kill a Hullbreacher, Notion Thief, Opposition Agent, Aven Mindcensor, Deathrite Shaman, Kaalia of the Vast, Captain Sisay, Tymna the Weaver, Lotus Cobra, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Scute Swarm, Collector Ouphe, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.
The difference for me is that when I put KC in my deck, if I end up doing raise dead + discard, usually I'm fine with it because the raise dead was the primary reason I put it in the deck. Drawing a guaranteed major threat is still decent value, and it's known value. Is the same going to be true when you do the two value modes with PC? I'm dubious.
Looting twice or getting a treasure may not be as good as raise dead, but they're both better than making an opponent discard a card.
Don't forget that it's an instant. That can make it a time walk in 1v1 if they're hellbent without on-board stuff to do. I agree it's a weak mode but it can be decent. More to the point, though, I don't think KC is a good card anyway, and I think PC is a little worse.
Niv-Mizzet, Parun is always looking for more ramp, and this isn't the best ramp card, but I can play it at my opponent's end step turn 2 or 3, and then during my next turn I'd have enough mana for Temporal Manipulation, Time Warp, Evacuation, or Gilded Lotus.
True, but man that seems like a steep rate when you could have just played a mana rock and kept the mana forever. I know that doesn't double as narrow removal but still.
I always thought Decoy Gambit had potential as a 3-for-1 instant, but I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet.
You need to have 3 opponents, each opponent has to have a creature, and those creatures have to be bad for them to bounce, and then the absolute ceiling is that you get 3 mana draw 3.
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Cyberium
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Post by Cyberium » 7 months ago

The commands said little about the schools themselves, more like enforcing what the color combinations had been doing for a while, except Lorehold with its 3/2 spirit and sac-draw-2. Did they add an extra mana for Lorehold Command just so its outside of Sunforger range?

That said, I'm more curious on what kind of innovation in flavor they could give us with these five schools. Ikoria didn't break much from Tarkir (though Tarkir wedges didn't last long enough to establish that distinction). Witherbloom/Prismari look too much like Golgari and Izzet. Lorehold being the most interesting as it appears to revisit white's affinity with archeology, perhaps we'll even see synergy with artifact/enchantment in graves. I suspect Silverquill magic is based on contracts, but thus far being the most enigmatic.

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