Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Candlemane
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Post by Candlemane » 2 months ago

Stoic Farmer is nice if you don't have something better, but I'll agree it doesn't compare if you do have the others like Kor Cartographer.

Tales of the Ancestors should have been White. This could be a white thing to do. It evens the odds, like White wants to do. Sandstone Oracle does something similar. Let's give this ability to White. It plays right into its color. But no, it's Blue, because Blue just can't keep up on card draw. The flavor is even off. When was the last time we saw Blue reminisce about anything? Sure it has imagination, but heroes and family being remembered seems more White to me.

I might be a tad salty.

Edit for grammar and spelling 'cause upset.
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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

I think WotC thinks Foretell is a good ability, so the card needed to be dumbed down to not be broken.

But Foretell is not a good ability. It's an okay ability at best.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
I really hate the basic clause they're putting on plains fetches. It's obnoxious. Like they're afraid to accidentally pull a Mystic Sanctuary except the white plains lands are pretty weak mostly :P

That stoic farmer coulda straight up cost 1W and seen negligible play outside of standard, but 2W and Foretell for W would not be too pushed.
Well, it's printed in a set that has literal duals. (which in my mind, means they SHOULD have allowed nonbasics... but anyways). Heck, if they wanted a limitation on it for this set, imagine if it said "Snow Plains" - so that it could get a basic, or one of the new duals. That would have been pretty cool.

Also, Idyllic Grange, while not a Mystic Sanctuary, is absolutely playable. Mistveil Plains is by far the strongest of that original cycle as well. White probably has the better selection of typed lands to search. Moonring Island certainly isn't going to be making any waves.

Sinis brought up that the foretell cost on Stoic Farmer means that you can foretell on 2, then cast it on t3 before playing land, which makes it more consistent, and thereby means it comes down before Kor Cartographer. While Knight of the White Orchid is probably still better in that situation, this guy does still get a land to hand even if it 'fails,' while Knight would get nothing.

I've changed my assessment to it not being total garbage, but I'm still a bit disappointed. Though, white has few enough of these effects that I'll probably still end up trying it out.
ZenN wrote:
2 months ago
I think WotC thinks Foretell is a good ability, so the card needed to be dumbed down to not be broken.

But Foretell is not a good ability. It's an okay ability at best.
I think we're way too early to tell if foretell is a good ability or not. It's a tempo loss early, for a tempo swing/gain later. It expands your handsize. Some foretell cards allow you to hold up considerably less mana for future turns for responses, which is pretty good.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
2 months ago
Well, it's printed in a set that has literal duals. (which in my mind, means they SHOULD have allowed nonbasics... but anyways). Heck, if they wanted a limitation on it for this set, imagine if it said "Snow Plains" - so that it could get a basic, or one of the new duals. That would have been pretty cool.

...

I've changed my assessment to it not being total garbage, but I'm still a bit disappointed

It's not unplayable it's just much worse than it could stand to be particularly on a rare, and I don't understand why they have to constantly lowball the power of stuff like that :)

Idyllic Grange and Mistveil Plains are both fine playable cards but it won't break commander. You can already fetch them with cartographer, white orchid, and fetchlands, so who cares?

I'd like to see them just go ahead and push the plains fishing effect a little. If they're going to be more expensive they should get nonbasics, and much cheaper versions that get basics would be sick.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
I'd like to see them just go ahead and push the plains fishing effect a little. If they're going to be more expensive they should get nonbasics, and much cheaper versions that get basics would be sick.
If this the extent of ramp that White gets, I totally agree. I'm happy with a tradeoff between quantity of lands for quality of lands.

Cosmic Intervention seems kinda cool at first blush. It's kind of a strictly better Faith's Reward, which is a card I already like.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 2 months ago

Yeah, that I can agree with. White is the only other color that can fetch lands to the battlefield (outside of Alpine Guide (which really... isn't), Embodiment of Spring(which is 'green'), and Dreamscape Artist ), I do think they could stand a bit more exploration into this. Land ramp really needs a real secondary color.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
2 months ago
Yeah, that I can agree with. White is the only other color that can fetch lands to the battlefield (outside of Alpine Guide (which really... isn't), Embodiment of Spring(which is 'green'), and Dreamscape Artist ), I do think they could stand a bit more exploration into this. Land ramp really needs a real secondary color.
That's black Liliana of the Dark Realms .

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Post by Serenade » 2 months ago

Guys, it's in blink colors. It would be totally broken if you blinked it.
Peasant creature type is something we have not seen since Eldraine.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

Serenade wrote:
2 months ago
Guys, it's in blink colors. It would be totally broken if you blinked it.
I'm assuming there's an implicit "/s" at the end of that.

Oddly, colourless generally is the second most common at tutoring lands from deck next to green. Solemn Simulacrum, Expedition Map, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Farfinder, Armillary Sphere, Burnished Hart, Gem of Becoming, Pilgrim's Eye, Journeyer's Kite, Mycosynth Wellspring, Wayfarer's Bauble, and Sword of the Animist all off the top of my head. Most of those aren't good enough to really see play, but they exist.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 2 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 months ago
bobthefunny wrote:
2 months ago
Yeah, that I can agree with. White is the only other color that can fetch lands to the battlefield (outside of Alpine Guide (which really... isn't), Embodiment of Spring(which is 'green'), and Dreamscape Artist ), I do think they could stand a bit more exploration into this. Land ramp really needs a real secondary color.
That's black Liliana of the Dark Realms .
That's to hand. There's also Liliana's Specter, again, to hand.
ZenN wrote:
2 months ago
Serenade wrote:
2 months ago
Guys, it's in blink colors. It would be totally broken if you blinked it.
I'm assuming there's an implicit "/s" at the end of that.

Oddly, colourless generally is the second most common at tutoring lands from deck next to green. Solemn Simulacrum, Expedition Map, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Farfinder, Armillary Sphere, Burnished Hart, Gem of Becoming, Pilgrim's Eye, Journeyer's Kite, Mycosynth Wellspring, Wayfarer's Bauble, and Sword of the Animist all off the top of my head. Most of those aren't good enough to really see play, but they exist.
Half of those are also to hand, but since colorless counts equally across all colors, I generally exclude it from comparisons, although Sword of the Animist does make me value Relic Seeker, Stoneforge Mystic, and Tribute Mage as 'ramp' adjacent cards.

White though has a decent amount of land search to play: Kor Cartographer always gets one, while Keeper of the Accord, Cartographer's Hawk, Knight of the White Orchid, Boreas Charger, and Oath of Lieges get them when behind.

Most well known are the white cards that get to hand, like Land Tax, Tithe, Gift of Estates, Weathered Wayfarer, Oreskos Explorer, Endless Horizons, The Birth of Meletis... etc


What's interesting here is that it's really only the most recent bunch that specify 'basic,' with it appearing on The Birth of Meletis and Keeper of the Accord and now this guy.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Cosmic Intervention seems kinda cool at first blush. It's kind of a strictly better Faith's Reward, which is a card I already like.
The delayed clause makes it not as comboey as faith's reward, but I love that it's a replacement effect.

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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Cosmic Intervention seems kinda cool at first blush. It's kind of a strictly better Faith's Reward, which is a card I already like.
The delayed clause makes it not as comboey as faith's reward, but I love that it's a replacement effect.
It also has some fringe downsides, like if you have some permanents you stole from opponents, this will end up putting them on their side of the table, which is noteworthy.
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

ZenN wrote:
2 months ago
It also has some fringe downsides, like if you have some permanents you stole from opponents, this will end up putting them on their side of the table, which is noteworthy.
That's true, but Faith's Reward wouldn't put those back anyway since they weren't put into your graveyard.

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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
ZenN wrote:
2 months ago
It also has some fringe downsides, like if you have some permanents you stole from opponents, this will end up putting them on their side of the table, which is noteworthy.
That's true, but Faith's Reward wouldn't put those back anyway since they weren't put into your graveyard.
Right. With Faith's Reward you don't get it back, but with Cosmic Intervention THEY get it back in play on their side. Could be really bad, like if you previously Bribery'd an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or something.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

Yeah, there's really no way to perfectly play around that at this point, both cards are worded very specifically. Still, it's a cool card. I like this effect and its nice to see more of it.
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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Yeah, there's really no way to perfectly play around that at this point, both cards are worded very specifically. Still, it's a cool card. I like this effect and its nice to see more of it.
Even the glorious new Glorious Protector suffers from this problem, sadly. Anything you stole will go back to its owner, if I'm not mistaken. Oh well. I'm still pretty confident that it's one of the top 3 mass protection spells we have now.

Things like Faith's Reward and the new Cosmic Intervention, along with Second Sunrise, still have a wonderful place in like sacrifice decks and such, where Glorious Protector and Teferi's Protection wouldn't do much.
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Post by Mookie » 2 months ago

Hmmm.... I was initially considering Cosmic Intervention for Teysa, but looking again, being a replacement effect means it won't give me any death triggers. Bleh. Still, interesting for other decks as board wipe protection. A bit easier to hold up two mana than four for Faith's Reward.

As for other stuff...
  • Stoic Farmer only ramping when you're behind makes it look significantly worse than Kor Cartographer, which I run in Brago. Foretell gives it a bit more utility, but.... pass from me. Peasant typing is somewhat amusing, at least.
  • Hero of Bretagard would be mildly interesting in Brago as a massive (indestructible, flying) beater, but probably still a pass. Could be fun for a more aggressive option though.
  • Sage of the Beyond looks... abusable, to say the least. Future Sight shenanigans?
  • Spectral Deluge looks worse than Engulf the Shore, but foretell is a thing, I guess.
  • Tales of the Ancestors looks worse than Windfall due to not enabling graveyard hijinks, but still a powerful option.
  • Ethereal Valkyrie is probably too slow for Brago, but does looks fun otherwise. The cards getting a discount may be enough of a tempo gain to make the six mana clunkiness worth it - generating four mana per turn is pretty big.
  • Pact of the Serpent is a powerful card draw option for tribal decks. I may consider it for Teysa.
  • Ruthless Winnower and Serpent's Soul-Jar are both strong Elf tribal options.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

I really don't mind the hose of steal effects, I am running fewer and fewer of those lately. Basically just Gilded Drake. So many people run such hot garbage stuff and so many people hate it, and the bookkeeping is kind of annoying.

The number of times I have bribery'd someone had had to get Eternal Witness or something is so high it's just almost not worth the trouble =P

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Post by WizardMN » 2 months ago

ZenN wrote:
2 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Yeah, there's really no way to perfectly play around that at this point, both cards are worded very specifically. Still, it's a cool card. I like this effect and its nice to see more of it.
Even the glorious new Glorious Protector suffers from this problem, sadly. Anything you stole will go back to its owner, if I'm not mistaken. Oh well. I'm still pretty confident that it's one of the top 3 mass protection spells we have now.
The nice thing about Protector though is that it doesn't exile everything you have; just what you want to exile. So, if you have stolen anything, you simply let it die/get bounced while you save everything else you both control and own. It isn't perfect, but at least with it the owner won't get their stuff back like they do with Intervention.

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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 months ago
The nice thing about Protector though is that it doesn't exile everything you have; just what you want to exile. So, if you have stolen anything, you simply let it die/get bounced while you save everything else you both control and own. It isn't perfect, but at least with it the owner won't get their stuff back like they do with Intervention.
Ah yes, absolutely. Such a good card.
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Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

ZenN wrote:
2 months ago
Even the glorious new Glorious Protector suffers from this problem, sadly. Anything you stole will go back to its owner, if I'm not mistaken. Oh well. I'm still pretty confident that it's one of the top 3 mass protection spells we have now.

Things like Faith's Reward and the new Cosmic Intervention, along with Second Sunrise, still have a wonderful place in like sacrifice decks and such, where Glorious Protector and Teferi's Protection wouldn't do much.
Yeah, as good as Glorious Protector is, it does nothing for my main white deck. That pesky non-angel clause means I have maybe 6-7 creatures I can protect. And to be fair, if something hits my yard, chances are its coming back. 'Why won't your stuff die' decks are hilarious.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
I really don't mind the hose of steal effects, I am running fewer and fewer of those lately. Basically just Gilded Drake. So many people run such hot garbage stuff and so many people hate it, and the bookkeeping is kind of annoying.

The number of times I have bribery'd someone had had to get Eternal Witness or something is so high it's just almost not worth the trouble =P
It does get a bit painful to keep tabs on, and there's lots of stuff these days thats good but only in a weirdly specific way that isn't widely applicable. I love to explore those areas, so I'm always glad to see the light in my opponents' eyes slowly fade as they realise they've wasted their theft on me :P
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 months ago

I actually kind of like steal as a meta consideration, as it does a good job policing the amount of generic goodstuff in the format. If steal isn't working in your meta that speaks well of your meta.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 months ago
I actually kind of like steal as a meta consideration, as it does a good job policing the amount of generic goodstuff in the format. If steal isn't working in your meta that speaks well of your meta.
To be fair most of my games are pickups against randoms, so unless they've read my threads (which weirdly has happened before) they really don't know what they're playing against and vice versa. I do keep a close eye on prevalent combo pieces so I can tank wins, but I generally don't run theft so it's a bit of a moot point.
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Post by ZenN » 2 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
To be fair most of my games are pickups against randoms, so unless they've read my threads (which weirdly has happened before) they really don't know what they're playing against and vice versa.
That is such a weird experience. I once sat down for a game with someone at my LGS and they were able to quote my old Jenara primer on Salvation.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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