Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 6 months ago

Re: White experimentation - You realize that they need there to be time between experiments to evaluate, right? When they were experimenting with Red exile draw, there were frequently sets that passed between attempts at it, as they saw how people reacted to the previous ones. People have really calibrated their perception of the process wrong if you're expecting brand new effects every set. Even with that said, I'd point to Halvar, God of Battle // Sword of the Realms as exploring a new area in white, as it does not typically get efficient "return to hand" recursion like Sword of the Realms provides.

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Post by NZB2323 » 6 months ago

Glorious Protector may not be that different than Ghostform, but against Cyclonic Rift, one of the most powerful EDH cards that is played in 38% of decks on EDHREC, it's card advantage for white, and it gives you an advantage when an opponent plays Cyclonic Rift. You play Angel in response, all your creatures reenter the battlefield and Glorious Protector goes back to your hand. Now if a 2nd opponent plays a Cyclonic Rift or the 1st opponent plays it from the GY or returns it to their hand you can play the angel again. If you have creatures with ETB effects you may even want to get political with blue players and encourage them to play Cyclonic Rift.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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capitacommunist
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Post by capitacommunist » 6 months ago

Mookie wrote:
6 months ago
I fully agree that these cards due provide ramp or card draw to white. That said none of these except maybe Starnheim Courser is anything better than fringe playable.

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Post by darrenhabib » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
But don't you know planeswalkers are the bestest characters and it's up to them to solve everyone else's problems/plot threads?
From the creators of Star Trek Discovery and the Star Wars sequels comes a new saga..Magic the Gathering.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

Candlemane wrote:
6 months ago
I don't know. I always got the feeling Vorinclex was smarter than a rabid animal from various cards and text before. This one seems... well, somewhat rabid and dumbed-down in the story, but to be fair we didn't get much in the way of his point of view. We don't know how he got there, so that is something that could explain things. I also have the feeling that it could be political.
I'm generally one of the last to defend WotC's Creative's recent decisionmaking, but it makes sense that Vorinclex has gotten dumber and more rabid, as the last time we saw him, he was trying to lobotomize his sapience away.

I think Darren is spot-on, a lot of long-running media series have started trying to condense their plots by making everything about a couple protagonists. The end effect is that it makes everything feel at once petty and contrived. LRR, in their video about Spectre, do a good job criticizing this, and I hope Creative realizes how antithetical it is to good worldbuilding.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Glorious Protector is definitely a really beautiful solution to Cyclonic Rift

I can't help but think it is going to become wrong to be as sweeper heavy as the game has been before too long with all the blowout effects they're printing that hose them. It's getting a lot better to pinpoint remove stuff and 1-for-1 trade vs. giving that player a free win if they Eerie Interlude or Teferi's Protection a sweeper.

Pretty interesting dynamic honestly. I doubt RIft will ever become unpopular by virtue of being able to get it with Spellseeker but it might decline in popularity or require more setup than it currently does if they keep making stuff like this.

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Post by NZB2323 » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
Glorious Protector is definitely a really beautiful solution to Cyclonic Rift

I can't help but think it is going to become wrong to be as sweeper heavy as the game has been before too long with all the blowout effects they're printing that hose them. It's getting a lot better to pinpoint remove stuff and 1-for-1 trade vs. giving that player a free win if they Eerie Interlude or Teferi's Protection a sweeper.

Pretty interesting dynamic honestly. I doubt RIft will ever become unpopular by virtue of being able to get it with Spellseeker but it might decline in popularity or require more setup than it currently does if they keep making stuff like this.
The beautiful thing about Cyclonic Rift is that it can be cast as a sweeper or for 2 mana for a problem card. It can also remove something that prevents you from combining off or winning with Laboratory Maniac which even Teferi's Protection doesn't protect you from.

Now decks like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Zurgo Helmsmasher that are 1/3rd board wipes might see less play with all these answers.

Edit: we also just got Sarulf, Realm Eater who is a reoccurring board wipe.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 6 months ago

I've been thinking on runes a bit, and while they may be a safer/more conservative first step, I think they're rather interesting.

Equipment are already a solid strategy, and offer some efficient bonuses, or further uses to low cost dorks. Being able to customize equipment, and make them even more efficient seems interesting. Now, in several cases, the question arises, "Why not just run another equipment?" Why not run Loxodon Warhammer over Rune of Sustenance? Having played several voltron decks, I can say that requip costs can certainly add up. I don't know that Runes will be the answer to that, but adding trample onto a Sword of Feast and Famine so that Solemn Simulacrum can't chump the triggers anymore might be interesting.

Giving a Chariot of Victory deathtouch for that First Strike and Trample goodness... That seems... good?

Runes also have interesting synergy with Vehicles. Previously, vehicles have been hard to enchant, since... well... any Enchant Creature will just fall off at EOT. But runes enchant a permanent, and are active if the permanent is a creature. This means you can now enchant and upgrade your vehicles as well.

Typically auras have the 2-1 drawback associate with them, but since each of these runes cantrips, that negates that drawback.

Would you run any of these runes, if they instead were equipment with "Equip 0"?

Does that make them good enough? I don't know. But the design is actually rather interesting, and I can see why they kept them very basic when they are upgrading already efficient cards. Especially when it comes to equipment, since they've made so many mistakes on equipment in the past.


====

Also, I feel this set gave Blue the most experimentation, giving it two very powerful ramp cards in The Omenkeel (Cosima, God of the Voyage) and in Orvar, the All-Form.

Then Blue also got some new removal toys in Ravenform as a bit of a bend/break, and Bind the Monster as a new cheap option.

Reflections of Littjara also is a powerful effect that has previously belonged in green (Dual Nature). Blue certainly makes token copies, but ahs usually been with one shot or recurring spells.

Mystic Reflection is another new effect, that is extremely versatile and a massive play making option. While everything it does is very "blue" (token copies of creatures, or Swan Song impersonation), it's such a bizarre effect, and so broad.

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Post by ZenN » 6 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
6 months ago
Would you run any of these runes, if they instead were equipment with "Equip 0"?
Except that you also can't move them, and they go away if the creature they're attached to goes away, which still makes them much worse than equipment.

I think Runes will be great in limited, but I don't see them having much impact anywhere else. Some of them might be good enough to see play in dedicated aura decks, like Zur the Enchanter or Uril, the Miststalker, but none I've seen so far are good enough to play elsewhere.
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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 6 months ago

I would play a hexproof rune if it existed.
Cantripping is strong, but there are just so many good cards for us to play it is hard to justify running any of them. Maybe flying for Geist of Saint Traft ?

The haste one could be decent. Imagine enchanting a sword with it. lets you get your attacks in very quickly.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

I like the runes on manlands a lot, and also vehicles. Put a rune of deathtouch on a Mishra's Factory and you have a pretty cool blocker, and rune of lifelink on looter scooter is very cool.

I expect there are some very cool things you could do with an enchantment deck chock full of runes, perhaps Kestia, the Cultivator. They just need a few more of them though :P

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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 6 months ago

ZenN wrote:
6 months ago
bobthefunny wrote:
6 months ago
Would you run any of these runes, if they instead were equipment with "Equip 0"?
Except that you also can't move them, and they go away if the creature they're attached to goes away, which still makes them much worse than equipment.

I think Runes will be great in limited, but I don't see them having much impact anywhere else. Some of them might be good enough to see play in dedicated aura decks, like Zur the Enchanter or Uril, the Miststalker, but none I've seen so far are good enough to play elsewhere.
I think you might need to re-read the runes. Don't put them on the creature. Put them on the equipment.

Instead of enchanting your creature with Rune of Flight, you enchant your Lightning Greaves. Now your greaves gives both Haste and Flying, on an equip 0. It's a build your own Fleetfeather Sandals with a cheaper equip cost. And you can move it all you want.

View the enchanting a creature as the secondary mode, the mode that you play if you have to and don't have an equipment out to modify. Using them as a standard Enchant Creature is the desperation play.
Last edited by bobthefunny 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 6 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
6 months ago
I think you might need to re-read the runes. Don't put them on the creature. Put them on the equipment.

View the enchanting a creature as the secondary mode, the mode that you play if you have to and don't have an equipment out to modify. Using them as a standard Enchant Creature is the desperation play.
I'm fully aware you can put them on equipment. That doesn't really make them any better, and still makes them significantly worse than equipment with equip 0 with otherwise the same text.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by materpillar » 6 months ago

I'd imagine Rune of Mortality will see some play, specifically with Viridian Longbow or Thornbite Staff. I also imagine that runes are only going to get better as time goes on with more enchantress support and equipment being printed. They're pretty niche, but when they're good they've got potential to be really good.

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Post by bobthefunny » 6 months ago

ZenN wrote:
6 months ago
I'm fully aware you can put them on equipment. That doesn't really make them any better, and still makes them significantly worse than equipment with equip 0 with otherwise the same text.
Ok, sure. Of course. If they were equipment with equip 0, and you could split them up, and didn't need something already out, these would be insanely broken. And that's kind of my point. Like, the red one would then be a Lightning Greaves that cantrips. That would be pretty dumb.

My comparison though is that by adding them onto an existing equipment, you're getting the benefit without any additional equip cost on yourself. You get Haste or Trample, without paying any additional Equip cost. A number of equipment are run due to the keywords, or combinations of keywords, that they give. Using a second piece of equipment to achieve the same result would incur you additional equip costs, as well as an additional card (since the runes replace themselves).

Now, the other side of the scale is what you're bringing up. You need an equipment to attach them to. You won't be able to split them up onto different creatures, it will still be tied to the equip cost of that equipment, so you'll still be paying THAT equip cost, can't run it out as easily on its own, etc.

Some of these keywords (deathtouch, flying) aren't very common to get on equipment, and some (haste, trample) are very ubiquitous and sought after. I'm interested to see how these play out.

But the design is interesting, and I think there's more nuance to how they can play out.
materpillar wrote:
6 months ago
I'd imagine Rune of Mortality will see some play, specifically with Viridian Longbow or Thornbite Staff. I also imagine that runes are only going to get better as time goes on with more enchantress support and equipment being printed. They're pretty niche, but when they're good they've got potential to be really good.
Yeah, this was one of the first thoughts as well with the deathtouch one, as well as pairing with popular Trample equipment. (Loxodon Warhammer?)
Last edited by bobthefunny 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

You couldn't pay me to put one of the runes on a piece of equipment to get blown out with a 3-for-1 when someone kills the equipment then blocks the creature.

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Post by bobthefunny » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
You couldn't pay me to put one of the runes on a piece of equipment to get blown out with a 3-for-1 when someone kills the equipment then blocks the creature.
But it won't be a 3-1. The rune already replaced itself. It's a 0.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
6 months ago
pokken wrote:
6 months ago
You couldn't pay me to put one of the runes on a piece of equipment to get blown out with a 3-for-1 when someone kills the equipment then blocks the creature.
But it won't be a 3-1. The rune already replaced itself. It's a 0.
2-for-1'd and a massive tempo blowout then.

I already steer kinda away from equipment these days because of the tempo penalty and the risk of having it removed before blocks personally; even swords of x&y are a 5 mana tempo swing and potentially losing your creature.

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Post by ZenN » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
I already steer kinda away from equipment these days because of the tempo penalty and the risk of having it removed before blocks personally; even swords of x&y are a 5 mana tempo swing and potentially losing your creature.
Exactly this.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by Gashnaw » 6 months ago

aside from frost clone nothing has really stood out as a MUST HAVE!

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
6 months ago
aside from frost clone nothing has really stood out as a MUST HAVE!
Glorious Protector really is the biggest piece of white goodstuff printed in a long time. It's probably the single best EDH card in the set I think.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 6 months ago

Yeah, Glorious Protector is genuinely solid. Eerie Interlude against a wipe if you want, a Lumbering Battlement for your blinks if you want. And they are trying, there's no denying that. I like Colossal Plow, but the design is extremely hamstrung. Six power of creatures to wake it up is nontrivial, and then there's a 6/3 swinger that nets you mana/life. Getting bopped for six is nontrivial, and it takes just three power to make it not happen again. The Plow is not long for this world, but hopefully something nice along those lines will keep happening.

The biggest joke of a card, white-wise, is Stoic Farmer though. Did this really need to be worded this way? The cost of a Kor Cartographer, the effect of a Knight of the White Orchid, as Wayfarer's Bauble chuckles in the distance. Seriously.
 
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 6 months ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
6 months ago
The biggest joke of a card, white-wise, is Stoic Farmer though. Did this really need to be worded this way? The cost of a Kor Cartographer, the effect of a Knight of the White Orchid, as Wayfarer's Bauble chuckles in the distance. Seriously.
Actually, it's worse than both of those. Cartographer always gets you a land, and Knight gets non-basics, and untapped.

Yeah, Stoic Farmer is straight up awful.

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Post by NZB2323 » 6 months ago

Pact of the Serpent seems like an upgrade over Minions' Murmurs for tribal decks like Edgar Markov.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

I really hate the basic clause they're putting on plains fetches. It's obnoxious. Like they're afraid to accidentally pull a Mystic Sanctuary except the white plains lands are pretty weak mostly :P

That stoic farmer coulda straight up cost 1W and seen negligible play outside of standard, but 2W and Foretell for W would not be too pushed.

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