Unreleased and New Card Discussion

BeneTleilax
Posts: 883
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
By now, I would have hoped that the argument about "which color" has ramp or not expired. Every deck can use artifacts.
It is foolish to assume all colors and all archetypes can cast their generals with equal speed, simply because Mana Vault and Sol Ring exist. There is a reason Titania comes down earlier than Anwon.
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
I'm sure a Tergrid deck has no concerns about spending cards on one time ramp. The potential for recouping it all back is high enough.
Spending cards for speed in the hopes of capitalizing on that speed to get those cards back, and faster is an appealing proposition. One that, in my experience, generally leads to getting blown out by removal. Do not be so ready to trade a card in the hand for two in the bush.
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
If you answer a Tergrid again and again, isn't the player left with a bunch of pox and bottomless pit effects. That's kind of my "concern." I don't mind Pox, but the community at large complains about it.
A bunch of Pox and Bottomless Pits without their main way of capitalizing on them. By all means, in your next game, antagonize your table without accruing major advantage to yourself. See how that goes. Yes, any well-built Tergrid deck will probably be able to break symmetry on its own stax effects even without her. I do not imagine they will be able to turn that into a win under pressure from all the people who consider Stax a threat by nature, especially if they play as you advise and spent cards as well as turns casting and recasting Tergrid.
Decks: Flicker Feather, Krenko, Varina, Zabaz

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 869
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Serenade » 8 months ago

Oh, I would like an X version of Skull Raid very much.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

umtiger
Posts: 362
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by umtiger » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
It is foolish to assume all colors and all archetypes can cast their generals with equal speed, simply because Mana Vault and Sol Ring exist. There is a reason Titania comes down earlier than Anwon.

Artifact ramp is faster than land ramp. That's the truth. When I play non-green decks, I don't feel even a little behind. I'm sure Urza could out mana green decks.

There needs to be more context to your comparison beyond matching cmc for generals.
BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
One that, in my experience, generally leads to getting blown out by removal. Do not be so ready to trade a card in the hand for two in the bush.
Idk, I play storm in legacy. In my experience, you can win/lose and play in more than one way. Having to use a lot of cards to accomplish one thing is a play style I'm okay with.

Tergrid does need to stay on board. But you're talking about a deck that can main deck thoughtseize. You could just as likely get blown out holding your removal.

I mean, I hope you're right. Because it sucks to build a deck and face a bam hammer.
BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Stax
I don't characterize Tergrid as stax. Yes, you're trying to break the symmetry of Pox. But you're not building around Pox. You're building around going all in on having your general in play then casting a Pox. You're likely to never play a Pox without Tergrid in play.

Like I said, I hope you're right. Because having your permanents getting stolen on that scale does seem like something that people would want banned. I never thought Iona would get banned and the actual strength of that griefer effect is much lower than Tehgrid

BeneTleilax
Posts: 883
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
There needs to be more context to your comparison beyond matching cmc for generals.
Right, it's also about archetype. What part of Tegrid's card makes you think she's an especially pro-artifact general, on par with Urza? What makes you think she's able to make particular use of all those mana rocks once she's down, that she's not just spending cards for fleeting tempo?
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
Idk, I play storm in legacy. In my experience, you can win/lose and play in more than one way. Having to use a lot of cards to accomplish one thing is a play style I'm okay with.
Legacy operates at completely different timetables than casual EDH. Yes, rituals are good in Storm, because they run off a constant stream of cantrips and mana access is generally their main limiting factor. That is wholly different than using a Dark Rit to try and get your value-over-time general down a few turns earlier in the slowest format in the game and hoping she doesn't keel over to the next wrath before you can get enough value to justify putting Dark Rit in your deck.
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
Tergrid does need to stay on board. But you're talking about a deck that can main deck thoughtseize. You could just as likely get blown out holding your removal.
Your use of the term "main deck" in a format without sideboards indicates that you are again trying to cross-apply your knowledge of competitive 60-card constructed without thinking about if it makes sense. Yes, sometimes Tegrid can guess which player is most likely to have an answer and trade one-for-one with that answer. Then you have to be really hopeful that A) they don't need that answer to control someone else and B) no-one else has an answer and decides to use it on you after you Thoughtseized someone else. I would hardly consider a conditional one-for-one (for an answer no less, not even a threat) a blowout in multiplayer.
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
I mean, I hope you're right. Because it sucks to build a deck and face a bam hammer.
Are you arguing that Tegrid is too powerful, unreliable or unfun to exist in a casual format, and thus has no place in it (or shouldn't have been printed)? Or that Tegrid is manageable and can exist in a healthy casual EDH meta without causing undue disruption and thus shouldn't be banned? Or are you just switching your positions to try and score points without considering the consistency of your arguments.
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
I don't characterize Tergrid as stax. Yes, you're trying to break the symmetry of Pox. But you're not building around Pox. You're building around going all in on having your general in play then casting a Pox. You're likely to never play a Pox without Tergrid in play.
Really, because in your prior post you argued that:
umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
If you answer a Tergrid again and again, isn't the player left with a bunch of pox and bottomless pit effects. That's kind of my "concern."
So they're left with a bunch of Pox and Bottomless Pit effect that they... won't cast until they can get Tegrid online again? Legacy combo can get away with structuring itself around an extremely fragile engine and scooping if that engine encounters sustained disruption. Casual EDH decks just can't. Especially those who by their nature attract that very sustained disruption.

Also, fix your quote tags.
Decks: Flicker Feather, Krenko, Varina, Zabaz

User avatar
maeos
Posts: 42
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by maeos » 8 months ago

So ive been playtesting Tergrid, God of Fright in replacement of my Tinybones, Trinket Thief as a commander and ive felt that tergrid comes down too late to be able to take control of the board. I generally want to have atleast 2-3 mana open when i cast her so i can get immediate advantage of her ability. This unfortunately means that unless i get a mana rock, the "earliest" i can get tergrid out and have a spell to go along side her is turn 7. Unless i use cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize , which while they are good for slowing down the player thats ahead or a player that you know has an important card in your hand, they create a loss of tempo vs 2 other players. I would rather have an effect like Liliana's Triumph or Mind Rake to ensure that i can benefit. that being said,

Im also prefer having tinybones as the commander due to the consistent nature of his card advantage. as long as someone discarded during the turn, i can draw a card. this also removes the RNG that i may get from other people's decks.

ilovesaprolings
Posts: 507
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ilovesaprolings » 8 months ago

After some spoilers the set is still baffling to me.
foretell is a big mess. There are foretell commanders, but the white cards with foretell are terrible. foretell looks like a way better options. But i guess there aren't still enough cards to make a whole deck about it. You could make a 4-5 cards foretell package in a control deck, i guess, but cool thematic cards like dream devourer and cosmos charger feel wasted.

We actually got a boast commander... but she can't really work in the format. Too limited.

Tribal feels limited too. Angels didn't got a commander, giants got a subpar one and so on. Really, when we'll get a jeskai tribal giant commander to use kaldheim and lorwyn cards together? They made the same mistake they made with Ixalan and simic merfolks.

We got a sultai snow commander and that's nice. Personally i don't like him very much but that's just my personal opinion. At least he makes the snow cards in kaldheim playable in this format and you can add cards from modern orizon and coldsnap too.

BeneTleilax
Posts: 883
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

You're reading these way too narrow. Vega works with Suspend, Flashback, and any number of cards you cheat in from other zones. Birgi is going to be at the helm of some Storm deck just for her first ability alone. Also, if you want an Orzhov angel commander, Liesse still exists.
Decks: Flicker Feather, Krenko, Varina, Zabaz

NZB2323
Posts: 248
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by NZB2323 » 8 months ago

A red card that can produce mana or card advantage seems very good.

With these cheaper demons winning off of a Liliana's Contract seems more likely, and it's already a good card without the wincon condition.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

User avatar
materpillar
the caterpillar
Posts: 676
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Ohio

Post by materpillar » 8 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
8 months ago
With these cheaper demons winning off of a Liliana's Contract seems more likely, and it's already a good card without the wincon condition.
As the resident changeling fanatic, I'd just like to point out that Mirror Entity has existed for quite a while and makes Liliana's Contract wins fairly trivial.

I'm overall somewhat disappointed in the amount of changeling tribal support. I kind of liked having a super cute, unheard of deck. Now that tribal tribal is officially supported with Maskwood Nexus the hipster quality of my deck is dropping dramatically. :(

User avatar
Lifeless
Not here to contribute.
Posts: 223
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Lifeless » 8 months ago

Birgi, God of Tales seems like a pretty big yikes. If someone doesn't break this in EDH by lunchtime today I'd be pretty surprised.

BeneTleilax
Posts: 883
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

Monored storm ahoy!
Decks: Flicker Feather, Krenko, Varina, Zabaz

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1375
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 65
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 8 months ago

materpillar wrote:
8 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
8 months ago
With these cheaper demons winning off of a Liliana's Contract seems more likely, and it's already a good card without the wincon condition.
As the resident changeling fanatic, I'd just like to point out that Mirror Entity has existed for quite a while and makes Liliana's Contract wins fairly trivial.
I do want to point out that Mirror Entity doesn't help you win with Contract. At least, its ability doesn't. Being a Changeling is important of course, but its ability can never let you get Contract to trigger as you need 4 Demons before your turn starts in order for Contract to trigger. If you don't already have 4 demons (with different names) Contract won't trigger at all. There is no time where you can activate Mirror Entity's ability on your turn to win with Contract. Not without Paradox Haze anyway.

User avatar
Gashnaw
Posts: 273
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Gashnaw » 8 months ago

Are we only getting two kalheim commander decks? I ask cause I am still hoping for troll tribal. Trolls are one of the biggest aspects of Norse mythology, yet completely ignored in kalheim thus far.

BeneTleilax
Posts: 883
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

Decks: Flicker Feather, Krenko, Varina, Zabaz

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 3900
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 8 months ago

I really like the design of Doomskar - it's one of those sweet spots where it enables a turn 3 wrath in older formats, which is something I have talked about a ton with modern theorists and stuff. I bet it sees some play there, as you really need to wrath on turn 3 on the draw sometimes for control decks to have a chance. And yet you have to sacrifice a turn 2 play. IT's much better than that 3 mana wrath that gives up your turn 4 play :P

I also adore The Three Seasons. For no good reason. Life from the Sn/slowoam. I really do like that it does not appear to target, which gives some nice utility. I also like that you can recur it pretty easily, and use it to slowly defend some stuff in your yard *and* as yard hate. It's deceptively powerful and cool.

User avatar
materpillar
the caterpillar
Posts: 676
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Ohio

Post by materpillar » 8 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
materpillar wrote:
8 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
8 months ago
With these cheaper demons winning off of a Liliana's Contract seems more likely, and it's already a good card without the wincon condition.
As the resident changeling fanatic, I'd just like to point out that Mirror Entity has existed for quite a while and makes Liliana's Contract wins fairly trivial.
I do want to point out that Mirror Entity doesn't help you win with Contract. At least, its ability doesn't. Being a Changeling is important of course, but its ability can never let you get Contract to trigger as you need 4 Demons before your turn starts in order for Contract to trigger. If you don't already have 4 demons (with different names) Contract won't trigger at all. There is no time where you can activate Mirror Entity's ability on your turn to win with Contract. Not without Paradox Haze anyway.
well that's a solid herp-a-derp from me

BeneTleilax
Posts: 883
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

Can't you activate abilities on your untap step?
Decks: Flicker Feather, Krenko, Varina, Zabaz

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 3900
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Can't you activate abilities on your untap step?
No, no one receives priority during the untap step. Even if something triggers (e.g. mesmeric orb) it gets held until the upkeep step.

User avatar
Dunharrow
Posts: 944
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Montreal

Post by Dunharrow » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Can't you activate abilities on your untap step?
Nobody gets priority during the untap step. You untap your things and proceed directly to upkeep.
Even if you have something that that triggers during the untap, like King Macar, the Gold-Cursed, the trigger goes on the stack in the upkeep.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme

Wallycaine
Posts: 631
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Can't you activate abilities on your untap step?
You cannot. You never get priority during the untap step, and even stuff that triggers during it (Wake Thrasher and the like) don't actually go on the stack until your upkeep.

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1375
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 65
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 8 months ago

Man, everyone was quick to jump on that one :)

One other interesting note about Untap triggers (since everyone covered the answer to the question): the rules don't actually say they go onto the stack in the Upkeep. Instead, they simply work like all other (non-mana) triggers in that they go onto the stack the next time someone would receive priority. Generally, this means the Upkeep so it is pretty safe to think about it that way. However, things like Eon Hub exist so with that, those triggers would be delayed until the Draw step. With enough effects, you could probably get them delayed all the way until the End Step.

Wallycaine
Posts: 631
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
Man, everyone was quick to jump on that one :)

One other interesting note about Untap triggers (since everyone covered the answer to the question): the rules don't actually say they go onto the stack in the Upkeep. Instead, they simply work like all other (non-mana) triggers in that they go onto the stack the next time someone would receive priority. Generally, this means the Upkeep so it is pretty safe to think about it that way. However, things like Eon Hub exist so with that, those triggers would be delayed until the Draw step. With enough effects, you could probably get them delayed all the way until the End Step.
You'd need the opponent's cooperation, but 3 copies of Fatespinner lets them choose to skip Draw, Main phases, and combat. Outside of them cooperating, though, I can't think of a way to force someone to skip their main phase.

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1375
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 65
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 8 months ago

But then they aren't skipping their Upkeep (since that is when Fatespinner needs to trigger). So, it looks like there may not be a way to skip a bunch of steps/phases even if someone wanted to. That's too bad :(

Wallycaine
Posts: 631
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
But then they aren't skipping their Upkeep (since that is when Fatespinner needs to trigger). So, it looks like there may not be a way to skip a bunch of steps/phases even if someone wanted to. That's too bad :(
Ahh, yeah. Hmm... the Main Phase is the sticking point. Which makes sense, it's the Main Phase of the game, skipping it causes a lot of balance problems for cards. You can definitely delay the triggers until the Precombat Main, but there doesn't seem to be any non-fatespinner ways to skip it that I can find. Clocknapper comes closest, but that doesn't get rid of the phases it steals, just makes them yours, and that's still enough to give players priority.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 2638
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 8 months ago

Orvar, the All-Form seems absolutely made to jam with Precursor Golem. Looks super fun.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”