Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Post by Toshi » 8 months ago

The Raven's Warning is just the perfect fit for my Tokens and Enchantment Brago, King Eternal build!
If only it weren't for that damn "one or more" clause...

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Post by Hermes_ » 8 months ago

I see the wish argument rearing its ugly head.......
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Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

Phyrexian Arena is not what it once was. I think this will get some uptake in card-starved W and Boros decks, but the other colors can just get this cheaper and more reliably.
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Post by Candlemane » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Phyrexian Arena is not what it once was. I think this will get some uptake in card-starved W and Boros decks, but the other colors can just get this cheaper and more reliably.
For sure, but I think it has it's uses. Something like Regna/Krav or Karlov of the Ghost Council might use it, or anything else that cares when you gain life. While still no the best there, it is potentially a slow value engine or makes things easier for Angelic Accord or Crested Sunmare or similar.

Why it's rare is another issue. I think could have been uncommon, excluding the ever present limited environment argument. In limited I can see it being justified, but only barely.
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Post by Mookie » 8 months ago

  • The Raven's Warning looks like an interesting include for Brago - make tokens, gain life, draw cards. My build incidentally has a bunch of flyers already, so seems good there. Third verse doesn't do anything in EDH, but interesting option for other formats.
  • Cosmos Elixir looks reasonable for a lifegain-focused deck. As mentioned previously, there seems to be a perceptible uptick in white-friendly options in this set. Obviously, this isn't actually a white card, but... Overall, I don't think it's amazing - you need to be gaining a fair amount of life for this to draw cards consistently, which makes it a little win-more, although it does incrementally enable itself. I'd say the main draw is that it triggers at end of turn instead of during your upkeep, which means it can start drawing cards immediately.
  • Immersturm Predator is interesting. A little like Falkenrath Aristocrat, but it trades haste for a bit of grave hate and an easier sacrifice clause.
  • Valley of the Brilliant Glow is mildly interesting as another fixing option for snow decks. Seems pretty weak overall though.
  • Haunting Voyage is an asymmetric mass tribal reanimation spell, which is always worth consideration. Seven mana is pretty steep, although the six mana mode is pretty reasonable too. Hmmm.... I really love Angel of Glory's Rise, but I usually don't want to hardcast it - it's more of a reanimation target. Still, this seems like an extremely powerful option for any black tribal-based deck - I could see it in GB elves or The Ur-Dragon.
  • Frost Augur is alright. A little clunky, but could be good if you have a lot of snow in your deck. If it's just a Dryad Greenseeker, I'd probably pass.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

tyrite sanctum is very interesting. Doesn't even sacrifice for the first non-mana ability, and second ability has excellent threat of activation.

As if I needed more colourless utility lands lol...
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Post by Hermes_ » 8 months ago

Interesting,but is it really worth it? Can it be?
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 8 months ago

As a regular player of a durdly deck with a suicidal commander, Tyrite Sanctum is right up my alley. More generally, it's probably better to evaluate it as if the last ability wasn't on there. Three mana to add a +1/+1 counter every turn may not be the most exciting ability in the world, but I'm a big fan of being able to use mana efficiently. This can help with that without requiring a spell slot in a deck, though there are already an abundance of good colorless utility lands.
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Post by Candlemane » 8 months ago

Svella, Ice Shaper Seems like a nice open ended commander for RG, and I like it. There hasn't been too many recently that aren't smashy-stomp-omp. This one could be Spellslinger, Stompy, Walkers?, Artifacts, whatever as long as it's big. Worldly Tutor going up again I'd wager.
Last edited by Candlemane 8 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NZB2323 » 8 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
8 months ago
Interesting,but is it really worth it? Can it be?
It seems good in Rosheen Meanderer.
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Post by umtiger » 8 months ago

Is Tergrid + pox too similar to Leovold + wheels?

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Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

No, Tergrid is slower and more vulnerable to removal.
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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

umtiger wrote:
8 months ago
Is Tergrid + pox too similar to Leovold + wheels?
BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
No, Tergrid is slower and more vulnerable to removal.
I'll take the other side and say that yes, 100% Tegrid + pox is too close to Leovold plus wheels. ain't nobody wanna have to play whackamole with your commander and then deal with Pox resolving afterward in every game. It's gross.

I'd pretty much say don't play Pox unless it's cool in your meta. If it is, fine, but no one in my circle would want to play with that regularly.

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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

Mookie wrote:
8 months ago
  • Littjara Mirrorlake is a clone effect on a land. Mirrorpool didn't end up seeing that much play, so this may be a miss, but generating colored mana (and not requiring colorless) is certainly relevant.
I have no idea why Mirrorpool never took off, that card is awesome. Littjara is considerably less exciting due to being sorcery speed, as well as being far more involved to activate.
NoNeedToBragoBoutIt wrote:
8 months ago
The Raven's Warning is just the perfect fit for my Tokens and Enchantment Brago, King Eternal build!
If only it weren't for that damn "one or more" clause...
Keep in mind this is per player. You can still get multiple cards off of it by hitting multiple players.

For comparison, see Keeper of Fables : 10/4/2019 If non-Human creatures you control deal combat damage to two or more players at the same time, Keeper of Fables's ability triggers for each of those players.

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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
8 months ago
why Mirrorpool never took off
Requires colorless mana in a world dominated by 3-5c decks :)

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Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

pokken wrote:
8 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
No, Tergrid is slower and more vulnerable to removal.
I'll take the other side and say that yes, 100% Tegrid + pox is too close to Leovold plus wheels. ain't nobody wanna have to play whackamole with your commander and then deal with Pox resolving afterward in every game. It's gross.

I'd pretty much say don't play Pox unless it's cool in your meta. If it is, fine, but no one in my circle would want to play with that regularly.
Yeh, folks don't like Pox. But 4+ mana kill-on-sight generals tend to get just that, and she doesn't give any ETB value. I think she'll end up with Kaalia, Arcuum and them. Scary in the way a spider is scary. Scary in the way that makes everyone instinctively stomp it.
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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Yeh, folks don't like Pox. But 4+ mana kill-on-sight generals tend to get just that, and she doesn't give any ETB value. I think she'll end up with Kaalia, Arcuum and them. Scary in the way a spider is scary. Scary in the way that makes everyone instinctively stomp it.
I think Tergrid, God of Fright is different from those generals in a very specific way which is that you can let her just live on the table until she tries to do something huge. So unlike arcum or kaalia you let it live until Smallpox gets cast. Kaalia you must kill before they greaves it or before the first attack, so you can't ever let her sit on the table more than a turn, and you cannot let Arcum untap.

Quite different.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

So you either hold removal until she tries something huge, and kill her in response (in which case she gets whatever stax effect but is probably still blown out), or you kill her before she untaps because you don't want to chance it, or the whole table is foolish in the face of a massive, destructive advantage engine and just lets it go off. Like, what meta are you sitting at where black Pox stax gets *too little* hate? I get that not everyone has removal when they need it, but black can't speed out a 5 drop too well, so any Tegrid deck is gonna give everybody a good bit of warning.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

pokken wrote:
8 months ago
bobthefunny wrote:
8 months ago
why Mirrorpool never took off
Requires colorless mana in a world dominated by 3-5c decks :)
I haven't had an issue with that. Most utility lands produce colorless, Sol Ring produces colorless, there are lots of sources, even in 3c decks - and you only need one.

===

I haven't seen anyone mention Graven Lore or Blessing of Frost yet.

XUU is standard instant cost for draw X cards, and Jace's Ingenuity with upside is pretty good. It won't replace Mystic Confluence, but it's pretty darn good. Waiting to see if the Snow supertyping on instants will matter for much.

Blessing of Frost is also interesting. I don't think it will surpass Shamanic Revelation, but having another option at slightly cheaper, while also distributing +1 counters looks like another solid option for green draw effects.

===

Looking at the various spell lands, looks like we might be getting a full cycle of these as well, since we have 2 for each color, except for black lands so far.
The power level between them is certainly a bit... odd. A few of them stand out as being somewhat interesting though.
  • Surtland Frostpyre Seems nice. 5 sac for a Pyroclasm doesn't seem terribly great, but boardwipes are a unique effect to find on a land.
  • Port of karfell Seems to be one of the stronger ones as well. Res effect on a land seems really strong.
  • Axgard Armory is interesting for being a land based tutor effect, but again seems rather expensive to activate.
  • Bretagard Stronghold is less effective from a +1 counter standpoint than Gavony Township, but the real power comes in with the lifelink and vigilance, which might hold significant power as various points in the game.
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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

Graven lore is amazing honestly. There are not many nice instant card draw options in the 4-5ish price range. Enough so that I'd consider playing glimmer of genius. This card seriously beats that down.

Most control shells I've built really want a second and sometimes third copy of fact or fiction and so this is a cool one :)

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Post by Cyberium » 8 months ago

Serenade wrote:
8 months ago
Cosima, God of the Voyage could have been a five-color card. Counters, land triggers, draw, combat damage, vehicles, self-exile/return, playing opponent's cards from exile....good gosh, that is a lot.
Or, as WotC like to put it, BLUE.

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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
but black can't speed out a 5 drop too well
That is simply not true. Black is the second best ramp color in the format and it can explode much faster than green sometimes (with a good coffers draw). Black's got all the swamp mana doublers which are great, tons of ways to find swamps, and is the color of tutoring.

One of the best things to do with Tegrid to win the game is to generate infinite mana (off coffers+deserted temple+rings) and kill everyone with the back side, so it'll be pretty natural for those decks to make a bunch of mana.

Pox effects are also great with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx where you can generate more mana per land than your opponents.
BeneTleilax wrote:
8 months ago
Like, what meta are you sitting at where black Pox stax gets *too little* hate?
At some tables, everyone is playing strong stuff and a threat, and you may be willing to let the player get some value off Tergrid but respond by countering the pox effects instead of killing Tergrid. I know for sure that's how I would approach it with most of my blue decks - counter the Pox and let Tergrid get some value off people's fetchlands or whatever. Also, there are simply not that many pox effects; It's likely they also play with Memory Jar and Dark Deal effects, and those you can safely just kill Tergrid in response generally.

If there's a Winota, Joiner of Forces player and a Animar, Soul of Elements at the table, what're you gonna do, pointlessly hate out the Tergrid player while Winota hits you for 800 or Animar combos off?

All I'm sayin there is that Tergrid is not an instant must-kill like say, Arcum Dagsson, Zur the Enchanter or Kaalia of the Vast who must be killed independently of what's on the board or being cast. It's a different dynamic.

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Post by BOVINE » 8 months ago

Is Tyrite Sanctum good enough for Titania, Protector of Argoth? Seems like a reasonable way to keep her in play and being a land, it's in her wheelhouse.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

pokken wrote:
8 months ago
Black is the second best ramp color in the format and it can explode much faster than green sometimes (with a good coffers draw). Black's got all the swamp mana doublers which are great, tons of ways to find swamps, and is the color of tutoring.

One of the best things to do with Tegrid to win the game is to generate infinite mana (off coffers+deserted temple+rings) and kill everyone with the back side, so it'll be pretty natural for those decks to make a bunch of mana.

Pox effects are also great with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx where you can generate more mana per land than your opponents.
Black ramps towards large things, but has a slower setup than green, it is hardly *explosive* as you call it. Even assuming Urborg into Coffers, it doesn't get to 5 mana until your fourth land drop. Black can be explosive in the form of rituals, but that requires investing more cards into the hope that your rather vulnerable, rather threatening commander survives. Depending on rituals to accelerate your commander out before opponents are in a position to respond is generally a mug's game, and I don't see sufficient reason to think Tegrid an exception.
pokken wrote:
8 months ago
At some tables, everyone is playing strong stuff and a threat, and you may be willing to let the player get some value off Tergrid but respond by countering the pox effects instead of killing Tergrid. I know for sure that's how I would approach it with most of my blue decks - counter the Pox and let Tergrid get some value off people's fetchlands or whatever. Also, there are simply not that many pox effects; It's likely they also play with Memory Jar and Dark Deal effects, and those you can safely just kill Tergrid in response generally.

If there's a Winota, Joiner of Forces player and a Animar, Soul of Elements at the table, what're you gonna do, pointlessly hate out the Tergrid player while Winota hits you for 800 or Animar combos off?

All I'm sayin there is that Tergrid is not an instant must-kill like say, Arcum Dagsson, Zur the Enchanter or Kaalia of the Vast who must be killed independently of what's on the board or being cast. It's a different dynamic.
You do not respond to my argument here, you bypass it. You assume that all the other players produce only threats, and never answers of their own, nor that alliances can form, nor that blurry and manipulable norms (I use norms in the Beaufrean, multipolar pragmatic, sense, rather than the moral one, although in both geopolitics and EDH they take on quasi-moral element) guide not only the pre- and metagame, but also actions in the game itself. In such a scenario, no politics can exist, so the political disadvantage of playing a pariah archetype is meaningless. While the latter two factors are often minimal in cEDH, I do not think Tegrid makes mono-black pox particularly viable there, and besides, most of your points seem to hinge on the expectations of casual play. In my experiences with casual EDH, threat level arises not only from all players' rational predictions of who will most likely win the game, but the distance of each player from a shared set of norms, which exist loosely outside of play but whose particulars are constructed in each game. Indeed, for multiple players to agree on a common threat, such norms are needed, so they constitute the primary method of threat determination.

Stax, by nature, exists outside of metagame norms even at tables where it is permitted. In fractured gamestates where no in-game norms apply, (such as the all-threats scenario you describe) players will generally target whoever most impedes their own victory. The meta-game culture of casual EDH, where players often play as much to watch the complex engines they've constructed tick as they do to win (hence the format's strong association with durdling) exacerbates this tendency beyond reason. Stax, an archetype which is as based in its answer density as much as it is in exploiting asymmetries in those answers, meets this criteria far more often than almost any other. These two axioms mean that its threat status is almost always higher than its actual probability of winning the game. Unless in exceptional circumstances, it cannot benefit from alliances, and is more likely to be the target of allied players itself.

In addition, by existing outside of the norms of nonthreatening play, it can be used to justify actions which would otherwise be considered threatening themselves, either out of a sense of necessity or reciprocity. Successful aggro players almost always exploit this at some phase of the game; they are able to justify building an otherwise threatening boardstate by mobilizing that boardstate against someone else that the table perceives as a greater threat. In this way they can reduce their number of opponents, hastening the domino effect by which they win without breaking the in-game norms themselves, or even winning favors for getting rid of the threatening player for everyone else.

Furthermore, because its heightened threat status is due to its archetypal nature and the predicted actions thereof, rather than its past or current actions in a given game, Stax is far less capable of modulating it in order to recuperate. Leovold, because of his second clause, because of the unmatched recuperative abilities of Sultai, and because his mana cost allowed him to come down when most players in casual games were still setting up, could survive as the archenemy. Tegrid has none of these advantages. She is disadvantaged by the passive metagame norms of casual EDH, by the in-game norms actively exploited by aggressive archetypes, and by the antireactive individual threat-assessment that exists in the absence of norms.
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Post by umtiger » 8 months ago

By now, I would have hoped that the argument about "which color" has ramp or not expired. Every deck can use artifacts.

I'm sure a Tergrid deck has no concerns about spending cards on one time ramp. The potential for recouping it all back is high enough.

If you answer a Tergrid again and again, isn't the player left with a bunch of pox and bottomless pit effects. That's kind of my "concern." I don't mind Pox, but the community at large complains about it.

After all, there's plenty of "must-deal-with" generals already that aren't banned. But they aren't filled with Pox type effects.

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