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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 months ago

This mythic will be decent in standard, I think.
Commander is not really going to care so much outside of a Populate deck maybe.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 months ago
That's a dud to you? I mean, it's not going to go into every deck, but a 4/4 flying and vigilance for 4 is a strong rate, and it also gets a fairly reasonable scaling effect for late game.
The rate is good enough to be great in limited and possibly see some play in standard. But that's basically the description of white mythics.

They're basically limited bombs that have minimal application in other formats, and do very boring things.

Green gets Finale of Devastation - a multi-format allstar that's great at every phase of the game - and white gets dope limited bomb Finale of Glory

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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 3 months ago

It's uninspiring, I think.

4 mana 4/4 is ok. You can get it out turn 3 if you foretell on t2 for 5 mana overall - still pretty ok, and the foretell compares favorably in cost to Decree of Justice.

It's a solid card, but not terribly exciting, especially for EDH.

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Post by Hawk » 3 months ago

Having mathed out a variety of sequencing, Starnheim Unleashed is fine. I think its ever so slightly better on more turns than Decree of Justice and Finale of Glory (the most comparable competitors), but not so much so that I'd be clamoring to add it to a deck outside of specifically like angel tribal. The card is a good example of one that is going to feel unbeatable in limited and may end up being strong in Standard (its sort of a triple split card - build your own Serra Avenger/Serra Angel/Entreat the Angels) depending on when you draw and foretell it, which is a lot of flexibility and power. But in our format, where the "highroll" of a turn three 4/4 flying vigilance isn't as backbreaking, it's pretty meh. A good highlight to the "white problem" - the things that make this card great are things that don't matter in EDH.

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Post by materpillar » 3 months ago

Guh Starnheim Unleashed is so boooooooring. It's just Decree of Justice/Entreat the Angels where you get an extra angel if you foretell. An extra angel isn't likely to be worth the of no cycling or doubling your angels if you run Brainstorm. Honestly, the only reason I can think of playing it is because the alt art is pretty sweet.

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Post by Serenade » 3 months ago

Jorn metal border/art is sweet.
Kaldring regular border/art is sweet.

That's how I will use that MDFC.
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Post by NZB2323 » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
3 months ago
That's a dud to you? I mean, it's not going to go into every deck, but a 4/4 flying and vigilance for 4 is a strong rate, and it also gets a fairly reasonable scaling effect for late game.
The rate is good enough to be great in limited and possibly see some play in standard. But that's basically the description of white mythics.

They're basically limited bombs that have minimal application in other formats, and do very boring things.

Green gets Finale of Devastation - a multi-format allstar that's great at every phase of the game - and white gets dope limited bomb Finale of Glory
I'm kind of in the middle ground. Finale of Decestation is much better than Finale of Glory, Force of Vigor is much better than Force of Virtue, Return to Nature is much better than pouncing lynx, etc.

However. I feel like Wizards is improving and has printed more powerful white cards since 2017:
But I'm also the guy who doesn't have any mono white EDH decks, although in general I'm not a big fan of mono colored decks.
Last edited by NZB2323 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

Starnheim Unleashed - ohhhh wizards, could you stop making underwhelming bad angel spawn sorceries? I guess its decent in limited but at the same time you pushed it to mythic so it won't show up there like at all. Maybe this effect could be playable in standard these days (seems doubtful but I am not really in tune with standard anymore). So, assuming you do the forecast version of this spell and cast it in the same turn you get a 5 mana angel and another angel per two mana you put in it. Hummmm that looks kind of suspiciously like Emeria's Call which literally just came out and was by far the most underwhelming of its cycle. I guess the only mode in which this is remotely interesting is if you forecast it one or more turns before casting it. I feel like foretell has the same issues that morph had though in that there aren't really a selection of playable cards so it seems like foretell will be like, oh cute he is telling us he is later going to cast card X.

I guess I am just tired of these white mythics that seem to always fall short of other colors mythics. These cards aren't at the level of unplayable but they are also not exciting or really remotely good.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

The four mana option makes it a serviceable dude, and lategame 2 mana 4/4 vigilant fliers can basically assure board dominance until somebody wraths. I don't think it's really analogous to Emeria's Call, because that's capped at 2. I don't think this is an auto-include for white decks, but I think auto-includes are actively bad for this format. It goes nicely in Anointed Procession and the angel tribal theme they have been pushing with this set (and Liessa).

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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

See, I think Starnheim Unleashed actually looks fine. It might not be anything super exciting and unique, and it's a decent card. It might not be a huge player in EDH, but in other formats it should be decent. It's probably going to see standard play, if I had to guess. I'd probably try it in Oathbreaker (yup, my group is still playing that).

On the other hand, Burning-Rune Demon is nutty. Super strong card.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

ZenN wrote:
3 months ago
On the other hand, Burning-Rune Demon is nutty. Super strong card.
Damn. It's Rune-Scarred Demon but better and cheaper.
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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 months ago
Damn. It's Rune-Scarred Demon but better and cheaper.
Sort of. The effect is closer to Intuition, which is even better in the right deck. But all the same caveats apply, of course.
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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

Starnheim Unleashed: wHiTe'S CaRd aDvAnTaGe iS ToKeNs

More seriously, as others have said, it looks like a bomb in limited, fine in constructed, and meh in EDH.
  • Dual Strike is mildly interesting as a cheaper Reverberate if you foretell it. Not hitting opponents' spells makes it a miss for me though, but showing up at uncommon is nice.
  • Weathered Runestone is Grafdigger's Cage that also hits other card types. As a Sharuum the Hegemon player, I strongly disapprove.
  • Burning-Rune Demon looks excellent. One mana cheaper than Rune-Scarred Demon, and fetches two cards. They do get revealed, and one of them will end up in your graveyard based on your opponent's choice... but if you have graveyard synergies / flashback / etc, that's not really a downside... or you could just fetch Regrowth as one of the options. Definitely a snap-include for my Kess deck, and I'd consider it elsewhere too.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

ZenN wrote:
3 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 months ago
Damn. It's Rune-Scarred Demon but better and cheaper.
Sort of. The effect is closer to Intuition, which is even better in the right deck. But all the same caveats apply, of course.
I'm all for that tbh. I live from the graveyard in any deck this would fit into, so I'm likely to pick 2 things that I wouldn't mind in either place.
Starnheim Unleashed: wHiTe'S CaRd aDvAnTaGe iS ToKeNs
The most accurate take. It's just not gonna do much in our format.
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
3 months ago
I'm kind of in the middle ground. Finale of Decestation is much better than Finale of Glory, Force of Vigor is much better than Force of Virtue, Return to Nature is much better than pouncing lynx, etc.

However. I feel like Wizards is improving and has printed more powerful white cards since 2017:
But I'm also the guy who doesn't have any mono white EDH decks, although in general I'm not a big fan of mono colored decks.
Something you'll notice is that not a single one of those is a mythic, evxcept maaaybe Teferi's Protection (although I think that's still a rare effect if it were in a draftable set).

The mythics are complete buns and it's because they have not established what the proper splashy effect type is for white. It's always some stupid angel token.

In reviewing this I think the most playable white mythic in the last million years is probably Luminous Broodmoth. Mostly the effects are overcosted or underwhelming. But it's clear that they are actually trying a little as we see guys like Harmonious Archon.

The mythic *cycles* are always hilariously awful though. Stuff like The Circle of Loyalty compared to The Great Henge is like guffaw inducing.


(A few other recents I saw that I consider pretty playable:
But there're still way more History of Benalia than there are Cavalier of Dawn :P
Last edited by pokken 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
The mythics are complete buns and it's because they have not established what the proper splashy effect type is for white. It's always some stupid angel token.
WotC just needs to realise that what white does best is control, as well as splashing into reanimation. That's where they need to expand into mythic design - hatebears, reanimation, maybe the concept of generating resource from others' advantage a lá Smothering Tithe.

All that said, they do work a couple years ahead of time right, so we can only hope they're working on this and we see white's prospects improve with time.
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

I get that they have to balance for aggro strategies being a thing in other formats and white being the color of aggro, but I think they would probably walk the line a little better with making the flagship white cards more universally applicable.

Hence why you get mythics like History of Benalia that are complete nothings out of standard

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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
In reviewing this I think the most playable white mythic in the last million years is probably Luminous Broodmoth. Mostly the effects are overcosted or underwhelming. But it's clear that they are actually trying a little as we see guys like Harmonious Archon.
There have actually been a decent number of very playable mono-white mythics over the last few years. They just not universally good cards. They're great (or at least decent) cards in specific decks. Most of them, anyway. Some of these are legitimately great cards that are good in many decks.

In order of release date, descending:
Rick, Steadfast Leader (obviously comes with his own controversy, but still a strong card)
Angel of Destiny
Mangara, the Diplomat
Luminous Broodmoth
Heliod, Sun-Crowned
Highcliff Felidar
Harmonious Archon
Cavalier of Dawn
Ranger-Captain of Eos
God-Eternal Oketra
Arena Rector
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Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 months ago

I'd also add that like... mythic design for literally any color is hit and miss for commander? Like, even Green and Blue mythics are frequently cards that make no impact on the format, and they're the colors that lend themselves to the format the most. Having most mythics miss you if you're focusing exclusively on commander isn't a White problem, it's a "focusing exclusively on commander" problem.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 months ago

My issue isn't necessarily with white having flop mythics, its more that white just seems to miss out on the goodies in general. Other colors break the pie (see ravenform) and white gets hot garbage (see divine gambit).

Its at the point right now where red gets counters (tibalt's trickery black gets enchantment removal (Feed the Swarm), green and blue can more or less do whatever they want, and white still can't ramp or draw. Theres exceptions, but they're mostly situational.

I just get the feeling WotC doesn't really know what to do with White's ongoing identity.
Last edited by toctheyounger 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

ZenN wrote:
3 months ago
There have actually been a decent number of very playable mono-white mythics over the last few years. They just not universally good cards. They're great (or at least decent) cards in specific decks. Most of them, anyway. Some of these are legitimately great cards that are good in many decks.

In order of release date, descending:
Rick, Steadfast Leader (obviously comes with his own controversy, but still a strong card)
Angel of Destiny
Mangara, the Diplomat
Luminous Broodmoth
Heliod, Sun-Crowned
Highcliff Felidar
Harmonious Archon
Cavalier of Dawn
Ranger-Captain of Eos
God-Eternal Oketra
Arena Rector
I think I was letting the miserable trash cycles overly color my perspective. cards like Mangara, the Diplomat and God-Eternal Oketra definitely show they're trying. And Heliod, Sun-Crowned as well. With Heliod and Oketra being some of the best of their cycles too it's hard to even argue my point lol.

I do think white probably gets a bigger share of total flops like The Circle of Loyalty and Finale of Glory but it is what it is I guess.

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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
I think I was letting the miserable trash cycles overly color my perspective. cards like Mangara, the Diplomat and God-Eternal Oketra definitely show they're trying. And Heliod, Sun-Crowned as well. With Heliod and Oketra being some of the best of their cycles too it's hard to even argue my point lol.

I do think white probably gets a bigger share of total flops like The Circle of Loyalty and Finale of Glory but it is what it is I guess.
It's just a thing we do. Negative emotions have a tendency to create stronger memories than positive emotions for most people.

I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if by percentages red gets way more flops than white does, when it comes to non-standard playable mythics. That said, honestly, every colour gets a ton of garbage cards. We just get biased by the fact that the good green/blue/black cards are often 8-10/10, whereas the good red and white cards are most often 5-7/10, even if the ratios of good to bad are similar.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

Remember when red mythics were always either overcosted dragons or lolchaos enchantments?

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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

ZenN wrote:
3 months ago
I wouldn't be surprised if by percentages red gets way more flops than white does, when it comes to non-standard playable mythics. That said, honestly, every colour gets a ton of garbage cards.
I think red has higher highs and lower lows probably, looking at cards. Red ends up with lots of damage based stuff and white ends up with lots of crappy tokens.

I'd trade every white mythic in the last 5 years for Dockside Extortionist :P (which I know is a rare, but...it's a mythic c'mon ;).

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
I'd trade every white mythic in the last 5 years for Dockside Extortionist :P (which I know is a rare, but...it's a mythic c'mon ;).
For fun I just looked at standard white mythics. Luminous Broodmoth was the only one that didn't look like tech and even then I have yet to ever play that card myself. I don't even know when the last "good" mythic before that was lol.

EDIT: For fun I went through all of white's mythics and picked out all of the "Generically Good" and "Good in Specific Archetype" mythics. I tried staying away from ones that are like specific commander tech but ones that are either just good cards or fit archetypes being good cards there. I came up with the insanely sad and short list of:

GENERICALLY GOOD: GOOD IN SPECIFIC ARCHETYPES: Most of the generally good white mythics aren't even close to auto includes but are reasonably good cards that generically work rather than having specific archetypes they work in. Most of the archetype ones were lifegain or sac based with a touch of spellslinger / tokens in there. The newest standard mythic that was generally useful came from Theros which was what..... 6 years back? The specific archetype ones have been a lot more recent but oh man its been a long time since white just got good cards.
Last edited by ISBPathfinder 3 months ago, edited 2 times in total.
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