Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Candlemane
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Post by Candlemane » 8 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
8 months ago
folding_music wrote:
8 months ago
trying to understand what Open the Omenpaths wants to cast:

https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aencha ... D2+cmc%3E3 *scratches head*
I know we were talking color pie breaks before with Ravenform, and now we just got Tibalt's trickery. It is to counter spell what chaos warp is to Vindicate, except you could use it on yourself to cheat in a fatty, especially in a shadowborn apostle or rat colony deck.
I'd note the random mill (making it difficult to set up your own cheating in a fatty), and the requirement to hit a non-land card (unlike Chaos Warp's ability to whiff) that make it much less of a break. It's still leaning closer to one, but given the limited nature of it's ability to deal with enchantments (has to specifically be on the stack, could just hit another enchantment anyways), I think it qualifies as a minor break at best.
I have to agree here overall. Molten Influence and Pyroblast exist, so having a limited, kinda odd or bad counter in red isn't outside of its wheelhouse. This one in particular can be very bad, because milling opponents isn't always effective, they still get something, and you're down a card for stopping things in the moment. However, using it on yourself as someone mentioned could be good. I know my Yore-Tiller deck doesn't mind getting milled, and I can see situations where this could be good, ala against Narest's Reversal targeting your own spell Narset's Reversal is targeting.
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Post by Candlemane » 8 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
8 months ago
Toralf, God of Fury seems bonkers. Play with Forbidden Orchard, Blasphemous act, etc.

Does this interact with Pestilent Spirit the way I hope it does?
As long as it is an instant or sorcery, it would seem so, consider what Toralf says is essentially trample with upside of picking targets. Remember though that this combo of cards doesn't affect things line Warstorm Surge.

Edit: This effect has some interesting uses with the reckoner effects like Brash Taunter or Boros Reckoner . I think it would essentially double the excess damage.
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Post by materpillar » 8 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
8 months ago
I know we were talking color pie breaks before with Ravenform, and now we just got Tibalt's trickery. It is to counter spell what chaos warp is to Vindicate, except you could use it on yourself to cheat in a fatty, especially in a shadowborn apostle or rat colony deck.
Raven form feels way more of a break. Like you said this is basically Chaos Warp for a spell on the stack and that feels red to me. Besides Mages' Contest has been around for a long time

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Post by Mookie » 8 months ago

Tibalt's Trickery is.... extremely interesting. I'd definitely consider testing it in most red (and non-blue) decks, if only for the novelty. A lot of spells are contextual, and while it can certainly backfire spectacularly, the average random spell is going to be a significant downgrade from any spell worth countering. Red does already have some interaction on the stack in the form of Reverberate and Redirect effects, but this works against a lot of effects that those aren't good against, such as board wipes. In terms of color pie, this barely even feels like a bend - red has access to Possibility Storm and Transmogrify effects already. (I will note that Chaos Warp is a bend/break, so wouldn't use that as precedent)

Divine Gambit is in a similar boat to Tibalt's Trickery - it's a flexible removal spell that can backfire spectacularly. Works well with Containment Priest, although that only works against creatures being cheated out. I suspect the downside is a bit too severe for most decks - Show and Tell is a pretty massive drawback - but could be interesting if you have a way to restrict what's in your opponents' hands.

Toralf, God of Fury looks sweet. I love the mental image of him throwing out chain lightning - deal massive damage to one target, use the overkill to hit a second target, and so on, until everything is wiped out. Obviously terrifying alongside Blasphemous Act and damage doubling effects. Repercussion in the command zone is... scary.

Kardur, Doomscourge is a mildly interesting option to goad all of your opponents' stuff. Fun with Conjurer's Closet.

edit: Jorn, God of Winter // Kaldring, the Rimestaff is.... extremely interesting, and possibly worth me finally switching my Tasigur deck over to a snow manabase. Untapping all your lands on attack is a pretty powerful ability for a 3-drop, and having a Crucible of Worlds is also pretty nice, even if it is restricted to only snow lands (and thus not fetches). Not sure if there are other snow cards I would want to run though. Jorn also seems like a strong snow payoff in the command zone for those that are looking for one. Some interesting tension between the two sides, since both are quite desirable.
Last edited by Mookie 8 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

materpillar wrote:
8 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
8 months ago
I know we were talking color pie breaks before with Ravenform, and now we just got Tibalt's trickery. It is to counter spell what chaos warp is to Vindicate, except you could use it on yourself to cheat in a fatty, especially in a shadowborn apostle or rat colony deck.
Raven form feels way more of a break. Like you said this is basically Chaos Warp for a spell on the stack and that feels red to me. Besides Mages' Contest has been around for a long time
To be fair to NZ, Chaos Warp is considered a break. One they keep reprinting, because they'd rather not spawn functional copies of it, but it is considered one. Specifically, the two issues is that you don't always get something out of it (which Tibalt's Trickery solves), and the fact that it can hit enchantments, which red isn't supposed to be able to destroy. So the question comes down to "is it okay for Red to deal with enchantments on the stack" as to whether this is a break or not. As you note, Mages' Contest provides some precedent, but most of the other "red counters" are limited to non-enchantments in some way, or are breaks themselves (looking at you, Pyroblast). Arguably, stuff like Ricochet Trap working on Auras provides another point of precedent, though a fairly limited one.

Mookie raises a good point with Possibility Storm. The fact that Possibility Storm interacts with enchantments as well probably counts as enough precedent to make it so Red messing with enchantments as they're cast is not a break, since it still can't deal with them once resolved.

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Post by Candlemane » 8 months ago

I have been pondering building Snow Archelos, but nevermind that. HELLO JORN (Jorn, God of Winter) MY NEW FRIEND! I love this card already.
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Post by Lifeless » 8 months ago

Yeah Jorn looks very interesting. I really like that he's 3 colors but still easily castable on both sides.

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Post by Candlemane » 8 months ago

Lifeless wrote:
8 months ago
Yeah Jorn looks very interesting. I really like that he's 3 colors but still easily castable on both sides.
And not broken. I like that he has to risk himself in an attack, and the back side is good with a small drawback (because of etbs and such) and isn't more "get stuff for breathing" effects that are usually very GUx. Archelos might still have a place in the deck, but I'm very excited to build Jorn as a potentially powerful but not broken deck.

On thoughts about things being broken though, I do believe in backup combos, and the backside specifically will have plenty.
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Post by Guardman » 8 months ago

Jorn, God of Winter & Kaldring, the Rimestaff is a cool snow legendary (and in the right colors for it). My biggest issue with him is that I like both sides, so I don't know which I would cast... If I ever built a snow EDH deck. Alas, I feel a three color snow deck is way too far down the list of decks I want to build, but haven't due to the pandemic.

Also cool to note is that they don't say Jorn, God of Winter in the textbox. Only Jorn. I like it. I hope this templating becomes more default.

On the other hand Axgard Cavalry already wins hand down for best art. It is somehow both cute and metal at the same time. As for EDH, I actually could see it being run in either a Depala, Pilot Exemplar or Magda, Brazen Outlaw as it ups your dwarf count and also can give your other creatures haste. Normally, I don't see it being played, but I think it just happens to have the right creature type and effect combo for those decks.

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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

Guardman wrote:
8 months ago
Also cool to note is that they don't say Jorn, God of Winter in the textbox. Only Jorn. I like it. I hope this templating becomes more default.
It's a fairly recent templating change, but they've done it since Theros Beyond Death (See Polukranos, Unchained and Thassa, Deep-Dwelling). It looks like they used the older templating in some places since then (compare Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate to Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant), so this may represent a shift to it being the default?

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 8 months ago

Not a fan of this MDFC design made to cheat the color identity, so not a fan of Jorn. But at least finally a snow legend!

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
Guardman wrote:
8 months ago
Also cool to note is that they don't say Jorn, God of Winter in the textbox. Only Jorn. I like it. I hope this templating becomes more default.
It's a fairly recent templating change
No it isn't. See Kumano, Master Yamabushi for example. You can even find it in old border, like the original legions print of Phage the Untouchable.

Although in those cases it's only repeated names that are shortened...you might be right that doing it for all names is newer templating.

Edit: nope, Higure, the Still Wind.
Last edited by DirkGently 8 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
Guardman wrote:
8 months ago
Also cool to note is that they don't say Jorn, God of Winter in the textbox. Only Jorn. I like it. I hope this templating becomes more default.
It's a fairly recent templating change
No it isn't. See Kumano, Master Yamabushi for example. You can even find it in old border, like the original legions print of Phage the Untouchable.
To be clear, the change is in using the shortened name the first time. Kumano and Phage both use their full titles the first time their name is used, only shortening for subsequent uses. Compare with Polukranos, Unchained or Jorn, God of Winter // Kaldring, the Rimestaff, who use the shortened version of their name from the jump.

Edit: Ahh, I see you caught that on your own edit. Yeah, that was the more recent change, they actually had an article that talked about it (along with some other editing/templating tricks) https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-01-07
Last edited by Wallycaine 8 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
To be clear, the change is in using the shortened name the first time. Kumano and Phage both use their full titles the first time their name is used, only shortening for subsequent uses. Compare with Polukranos, Unchained or Jorn, God of Winter // Kaldring, the Rimestaff, who use the shortened version of their name from the jump.
You slightly beat my edit lol, but you still missed at least one - Higure, the Still Wind.

Not sure if there are others but I'd have to guess there are?

Edit: funny enough, reprints of higure use his full name, but not the original print.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

Jorn, God of Winter // Kaldring, the Rimestaff has so many neat applications. Each side plays like a cool cut rate version of a Lands card I really like (Wilderness Reclamation and Crucible of Worlds, for each side respectively).

Being able to play him as just an artifact really gets my motor going for building a landsy deckwith him, and being able to play all the crap I've milled with Life from the Loam with just his ability, *chef's kiss*

Pretty sure I'll be doing since I've wanted a BUG lands deck forever. He's a LOT worse than Gitrog being blue, but way less...oppressive than Muldrotha, the Gravetide. Ain't nobody gonna remove that artifact side.

My favorite part is going to be Volrath's Stronghold bringing the creature side back after the artifact side dies. Mmmmm.

I may have to see if I can get my The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale back from my buddy I sold it to :P

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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
To be clear, the change is in using the shortened name the first time. Kumano and Phage both use their full titles the first time their name is used, only shortening for subsequent uses. Compare with Polukranos, Unchained or Jorn, God of Winter // Kaldring, the Rimestaff, who use the shortened version of their name from the jump.
You slightly beat my edit lol, but you still missed at least one - Higure, the Still Wind.

Not sure if there are others but I'd have to guess there are?

Edit: funny enough, reprints of higure use his full name, but not the original print.
Yeah, that's a weird case. It makes me curious if he used to have another ability that referenced himself by name, and that got cut around the time of templating, leading to them accidentally leaving in the shortened version (It doesn't seem wordy enough to have been dropped for shortening the text box reasons). Either way, the article I linked talks about it as a new direction, so I'm guessing it's something they hadn't used much before, even if there's isolated examples.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Maybe ninjutsu originally named the card in the reminder text? No other ninja has the name shortened though afaik.

Rimestaff is cool but idk what to recur with it atm. I guess just lands but that seems way worse than crucible unless they print snow fetches. Maybe there's a good way to loop Dark Depths ?
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Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 8 months ago

I feel like Jorn is more designed to capitalize on the limited amount of little snow stuff there is.
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Post by Hawk » 8 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
Maybe ninjutsu originally named the card in the reminder text? No other ninja has the name shortened though afaik.

Rimestaff is cool but idk what to recur with it atm. I guess just lands but that seems way worse than crucible unless they print snow fetches. Maybe there's a good way to loop Dark Depths ?
Bringing back Ice-Fang Coatl over and over and over is pretty spicy. Draw a card, kill a dude. EtB tapped means your snow snake is a poor rattlesnake, but seems workable. Spirit of the Aldergard and Abominable Treefolk are some another snow-men with an EtB, and while a Lay of the Land or Crippling Chill isn't that exciting it ain't nothing. None of these are where I'd want to be with some sort of Ashnod's Altar engine, but that's not the only thing that makes for a good time.

Also, why loop Dark Depths when you can loop Marit Lage's Slumber? (obviously the deck wants to be doing both, for all the 20/20 flying indestructible tokens)

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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

Being able to mill basics and snow duals and play them from the bin is enough for me but there's definitely enough little tasty interactions like Ice-Fang Coatl and Arcum's Astrolabe and Ohran Viper.

I'm excited to play Manabond for real too heh.

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Post by Serenade » 8 months ago

I started looking at the extended border versions of cards, and they finally nailed it. Every set has been a little different, but often they were zoom-ins, and some cut out a decent amount of context (look at Zareth San, the Trickster). This set, though...

Rally the Ranks
Eradicator Valkyrie
Calamity Bearer

The extended/borderless are less-cropped versions of the art and look amazing.
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Post by folding_music » 8 months ago

Codespell Cleric has to mean something for pauper, right? The commons in this set are so nice

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Post by Dunharrow » 8 months ago

I have to imagine a lot of us will be building decks around a single side of the MDFCs and almost never cast the other side. Getting to build decks around non-creatures is going to be interesting.
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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

Man, that white mythic is just...an absolute dud.



I guess 4/4 angel tokens must poll really well or something but man. What a horrendously boring awful card.

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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

pokken wrote:
8 months ago
Man, that white mythic is just...an absolute dud.



I guess 4/4 angel tokens must poll really well or something but man. What a horrendously boring awful card.
That's a dud to you? I mean, it's not going to go into every deck, but a 4/4 flying and vigilance for 4 is a strong rate, and it also gets a fairly reasonable scaling effect for late game.

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