Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Toshi
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Post by Toshi » 3 months ago

Ravenform
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I'm still gonna play it in my Talrand, Sky Summoner deck, because i'm a weakling.

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 months ago

The gods all seem very geared towards standard in my opinion. The modality allows you to make use of them even when you draw multiple. Neither side is particularly dominating.
I think they will see some Commander play but probably much less than gods from other sets.

As far as commander goes, so far I want to get:
- lands
- Toski, Bearer of Secrets for my Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa
- Inga Rune-Eyes (so great in Marchesa #1)
- Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire for not sure which deck (maybe also Marchesa)
- Valki, God of Lies (tibalt) for my creatureless Mogis deck (replacing mogis)
- Goldspan Dragon for The Ur-Dragon
- Kaya the Inexorable for my Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim should be interesting

Honestly, this is probably a higher number than I normally want at this stage of previews. I am underwhelmed by the sagas so far, and really upset that Ravenform exists.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme

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Guardman
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Post by Guardman » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Esika seems like a solid addition to 5-color legends, though unlikely to ever beat out Sisay.
Beating out Sisay, Weatherlight Captain is like asking for a Simic legend to beat out Tatyova, Benthic Druid. That's how you get Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait.

What I like is that it provides another five color legends commander that hopefully will be more interesting to play with and against than Sisay.

@NoNeedToBragoBoutIt - It really is, but I am probably going to play the hell out of it as well. But I'm evil. So, eh? *shrugs*

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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 3 months ago

Ravenforn is a mistake....

Another spit on White i see

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 months ago

Ravenform is so overpowered. I don't get it. monoblue exiling Terminate.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 months ago

I wanna make a Paradox Haze deck with Esika and then get punched for it.
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Post by NZB2323 » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Esika seems like a solid addition to 5-color legends, though unlikely to ever beat out Sisay.
The prismatic bridge is better than 5-color Sisay at cheating in cards with high CMC, and doesn't require a 5 mana investment investment per turn to put a card into play.
Also, enchantments are harder to destroy than creatures.
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WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
3 months ago
Seems a bit good for five mana like the original, let's make it cost six.
Amusing, but original Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger definitely did not cost 5.
BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
Esika seems like a solid addition to 5-color legends, though unlikely to ever beat out Sisay.
You know, unless you're specifically looking to go infinite with Sisay, Weatherlight Captain and Jegantha, the Wellspring, I actually think the two are probably about on par. Definitely builds, too, since this new one lets you cheat out expensive stuff.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
3 months ago
I wanna make a Paradox Haze deck with Esika and then get punched for it.
That card was one of the first things I thought of when I saw Esika.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

I think if it becomes a thing, people are just going to learn to never let you untap with it. We've seen some ungodly upkeep triggers, and they haven't been particularly relevant. Anyway, Koma looks neat in a silly battlecruiser way, but does anyone else think it's odd how UG now has three independent, supported tribes for snakes? You've got snakes, big snakes, and snake people with tails, all of which can't share lords.

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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 3 months ago

I'll also point out that if you only have 1 creature in your deck you'll always get it with the bridge, but I'm not sure what applications that actually has. I'm sure there's an obnoxious combo in there someplace.

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 3 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 months ago
Hawk wrote:
3 months ago
pokken wrote:
3 months ago


Well to be fair boros is getting card draw and ramp. And that blue artifact removal is hot garbage. And Blue has always had transmuting effects (e.g. Reality Shift Pongify and interacted with artifacts. Seems fine to me).

If it was an instant it'd be a semi-staple and we'd be maybe more right to be annoyed :)
Hot garbage seems strong - this is a monoblue, common, exiling Putrefy, with Foretell if you feel like putting it on layaway for later. It is notably a sorcery to Putrefys instant, and I don't think its quite auto-include; I will probably pass on it in most blue decks that also contain Black and/or White, as the glut of instant-speed removal I'll have access to will trump this. But for monoblue, Izzet, Simic, and Temur decks this card feels hard to avoid including as a versatile catch-all answer (the bird is close to irrelevant and much less punishing than the card given to opponents with Reality Shift or even Pongify). I'd wager those decks are targeting a creature or artifact 95% of the time with Beast Within, Chaos Warp, and Imprisoned in the Moon, and again while this is a sorcery it gives a much weaker thing to opponents so I'll be thrilled to run this alongside those staples even though it is on balance "worse" (for the record I don't actually think it is worse than Imprisoned at least).

It isn't a straight-up color pie break, I know - blue gets to "transform and transmute" cards all the time (see above). Blue has never had a card specifically target artifacts like this, but blue gets to Steal Artifacts and Annul artifacts, so it isn't a "break" to let them transmute an in-play artifact. It is emblematic of the bias WotC seems to show design though - they're willing to follow the letter of the law but not the spirit for blue's supposed weaknesses and color pie restraints, but are hyper-vigilant about the letter and spirit of the law for Boros (and specifically white).

And like BeneTleilax said, commons are a center of gravity so if this is now "fine" for a blue common, it opens the door for something even more bonkers at rare or mythic in a few sets.
I deeply appreciate the lines of complaint that go "I'm going to outline precisely the reasons why this is completely in color pie for blue, but once I've done that, I'll ignore all that and complain about how it clearly represents bias, despite having literally just established why it is okay." Blue gets to transform things. Things include artifacts. Beast Within continues to represent a far more massive color pie break than Ravenform or anything even vaugely resembling Ravenform.
My complaint is that it's the way the color pie is enforced. It's a bit like for Blue, their restriction (blue can't "kill" permanents only steal, bounce, or transform them; blue gets worse creatures than other colors and has to jump through hoops for its best ones) is enforced as "you can't go 60 miles in this zone - 61, 62, 90, that's all fine, but you can't go 60". For white (and to a lesser extent, red), their restrictions (problems with card flow, emphasis on smaller creatures joining together, and for red inability to touch enchantments) are enforced as "you can't go any speed higher than 60", which is much more limiting. Blue can't kill creatures - but it can exile them as part of a transform effect, or outright steal them. Red can't kill enchantments - at all, ever, Chaos Warp is a break, anything even remotely in the ballpark of enchantment removal is a break.

The card isn't broken. It's a top-tier limited pick that's probably only fringe playable for most other constructed formats, and like I said isn't even an instant staple for EDH outside of specifically monoblue, Izzet, Simic, and Temur. It just grinds my gears on principle because the "rules and restrictions" feel pretty loosely applied. And again, as a common that opens the door because those restrictions are so loose to "miss" on power level.

I'll drop it though, and enjoy playing Ravenform in the nonwhite, nonblack decks it helps. I'm glad its common. It's just annoying to see blue get yet another tool while they show off Happily Ever After as their "latest and greatest experiment in helping white's card flow problem" :pensive:

Anyways, Koma, Cosmos Serpent seems cool. THAT'S how you do a Verdant Force in 2021. I like getting a simic legend thats interesting and powerful and self-fueling, but not obnoxiously so. I do agree its weird that we have Snakes, Nagas, and Serpents and no lord to glue to them together the way we do, say, Skeletons and Zombies or wolves and werewolves.

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Guardman
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Post by Guardman » 3 months ago

The World Tree

Do you like Gods? Because that is how you get Gods.

Who would've ever thought God tribal would become a thing.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

I actually think that ETB tapped lands are something that has a lot of design space for yet. I am not sure on my take of The World Tree but I think that its something different that has a few different uses outside of just god tribal. I think in a five color deck its like super Urborg so thats something.

Maybe down the road I will hate the design but for now, I think ETB tapped utility lands are something I am willing to see a bit more of.
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Post by ZenN » 3 months ago

The World Tree seems sweet. A buddy of mine was once, years ago, running a Karona, False God helmed god tribal deck. I wonder if this will be enough to prompt him to try it again. Either way, even just the Chromatic Lantern part of it is probably strong enough for it to be a 5 colour deck staple going forward. Especially in Golos decks, which can go tutor for it.

Also, I actually really like Koma, Cosmos Serpent. Mostly because it's each upkeep, and not just your upkeep. I might find a slot for it in my Maelstrom Wanderer.

Edit: Actually, occurs to me that Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is probably the right commander for 5 colours gods with The World Tree anyway, since you can use Golos to tutor for the tree, and then also have another way to make your deck more viable. Golos Gods. gg.dek
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

I think as utility lands get better again, we will need to shift the norms around land destruction in this format. Provided that happens, and we get a few more efficient and flexible answers for lands, I think they could be good. Golos decks are going to get steadily stronger though, which is :/

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Guardman
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Post by Guardman » 3 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 months ago
I think as utility lands get better again, we will need to shift the norms around land destruction in this format. Provided that happens, and we get a few more efficient and flexible answers for lands, I think they could be good. Golos decks are going to get steadily stronger though, which is :/
It's actually making me wonder if I should start playing Blood Sun in decks. I've sort of been avoiding it since, while not as bad as Blood Moon, is one of those cards people dislike playing against. And I do enjoy playing utility lands myself. But so many powerful utility lands have been printed the last couple of years.

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Post by folding_music » 3 months ago

If we put our heads together in teh custom cards section and created this set everyone would say it was overinflated, feature-creepy and tacky in the extreme :)))) I'm really excited for all the Foretell and Changeling commons and am fully intent on ignoring all the mythic chase attempts

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

Orzhov has a weird Jori En now. I'm not really sure what to make of it, the graveyard, spellslinger and tribal themes seem to pull in pretty different directions, so I reckon we either get three decks or none.

Folding, you're dead-on btw. This has a very my-first-custom-set vibe: "ok guys it'll have norse gods and transform and phyrexians and snow and foretell and tribal!"

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

The World Tree seems like a snap include in most five-color decks, if only from a mana-fixing perspective. Throw on the ability to dump an unbounded number of gods on the battlefield, and it seems pretty dumb. At least it enters tapped, I suppose. Feels like it should be legendary from a flavor perspective, but I guess it's getting the Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle treatment. I've definitely seen 5C god tribal decks floating around before. Not sure if Golos, Tireless Pilgrim was a better option than Morophon, the Boundless before, but this certainly pushes it over the edge.

Koma, Cosmos Serpent looks amusing. Lots of tokens, doesn't ramp or draw cards. I accept this design.

Firja, Judge of Valor is a bit undersized, but seems amusing. Jori En, Ruin Diver is not an effect that I would expect Orzhov to have access to, but cantrip / trinket / spellslinger build with her could be pretty interesting. Maybe Salvaging Station nonsense? Hmmmm.....

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Post by Candlemane » 3 months ago

I for one like the new Firja over Liesa (there, I said it). It's much less common Orzhov poop and isn't easy to build around.

To me it seems to scream a low end aggressive deck with reanimation like Immortal Servitude or Agadeem Awakening. Add some soul sisters and some anthems or maybe Skulk or Deathtouch and have fun. Of course, there's always aristocrats if you're into that, with her just being a dig/filter (I hate aristocrats myself).

EDIT: Why Lifelink? Was Deathouch too on the nose? I'd trade in an instant.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Ravenform is a sorcery so I'll never play it, colour pie break or no.

Prismatic bridge is barf. I hate commanders that enable a "costs are irrelevant therefore play only huge bombs" strategy. Make it 5c and I hate it even more.

World tree I don't like either. Lands being wincons isn't a good idea imo, because it kinda forces people to run LD or kill that player first. Neither leads to great games (I mean, a strip mine or two won't ruin most games but people are bad at moderation). Mazes end is a groaner for me too, but at least it usually takes longer to set up.

Hmm I seem to have woken up in a pessimistic mood.

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Rumpy5897
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 months ago

ZenN wrote:
3 months ago
Amusing, but original Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger definitely did not cost 5.
True, but Doubling Season did :P

Esika, God of the Tree makes me unhappy, as it feels like it's R&D's answer to Golos/Kenrith being wildly popular. I hoped that those were isolated incidents from when they were trying to push Brawl, but apparently the crazy levels of play those legends ended up seeing in EDH created a world where silly 5 colour legends are going to become more commonplace, and it just took a while to trickle down into sets. 2020 had one five-colour legend to 2019's five, and the one it did have was rather situational. Meanwhile, The Prismatic Bridge is another one of those ones. Is it more obnoxious than Golos? No. Will it beat out Golos? No. Will Golos run it? Also leaning no, as I don't think you can jam the Bridge off a flip. But every now and then you'll run into one of these in the wild that will cheat out Jin Gitface or other crazy haymakers way before their time. So like Jodah/Golos do, but with a slightly different flavour.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 months ago

Tegrid, God of Fear + Smallpox? Seems gooooooood. Tegrid + Death Cloud? Seems eeeeeeeviiiiiillllll. :D

*adds to 'would like to try sometime but my playgroup would disown me' list*

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Tegrid does look really nasty. At least it's in a more interesting way than Esika.

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