Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Stapler
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Post by Stapler » 2 years ago

Tome of Legends gives Norin the Wary the ultimate card advantage tool in mono-red. :omg: You'll basically never run out of counters even if Norin gets killed after one trip around the table. Finally a reason to attack with him!

Obzedat, Ghost Council probably wouldn't mind it either, though he's not played much.

Feather, the Redeemed could probably run it too considering how that deck is typically based around flickering.
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SocorroTortoise
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 2 years ago

maeos wrote:
2 years ago
FML ... i thought you cast the spell once the creature was on the battlefield T.T welp there goes my hopes and dreams of a recurring spell
You can still get a recurring spell, there's just an added element of creature bouncing in there. While I doubt we're going to see anything better than what you could put together with Eternal Witness or Archaeomancer and the spell of your choice, there's still a possibility for something on the pushed side that comes in a convenient one card package.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

SocorroTortoise wrote:
2 years ago
maeos wrote:
2 years ago
FML ... i thought you cast the spell once the creature was on the battlefield T.T welp there goes my hopes and dreams of a recurring spell
You can still get a recurring spell, there's just an added element of creature bouncing in there. While I doubt we're going to see anything better than what you could put together with Eternal Witness or Archaeomancer and the spell of your choice, there's still a possibility for something on the pushed side that comes in a convenient one card package.
I'm considering Foulmire Knight for Varina. It's cheap, draws, can be cast from exile after the instant resolves, and I can recur it to use the draw again as needed. It might not be amazing, but it's still recurrable value and that's decent.
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

BRAWLSTAR REVIEW: I am doing a star system for challenge and feedback, so to give you a sense...

Four stars: For a Legendary, this is going to be in the top 5 most played Commanders of that color combination. For a non-Legendary, it is a staple and I expect to see it in basically every deck of its colors. An amazing card.

Three stars: For a Legendary, I expect to see it often and expect it will be in the top 10 for its color combination. For a non-Legendary, it is very good but a little more niche, and I expect to see it only in decks dedicated to doing this cards (narrow) thing. An above average card.

Two stars: For a Legendary, I expect it to not be top 10 but to avoid being bottom-ranked. For a card, it is fine, average, and fun but rarely optimized outside of extremely specific decks, and I expect to see it rarely. An average card.

One star: For a Legendary, I suspect they will be among the least-played Commanders of that color. For a card, I suspect it is actively bad, and will see play only in budget/casual/newbie decks or specific theme decks. A below average card.

Zero stars: Terrible - almost unplayable in the format.

The Legends:
Chulane, Teller of Tales: A known quantity - to reiterate, 5 mana is a lot but a supercharged Beast Whisperer in the commander slot is disgusting and I'm sure we'll all grow to see Chulane as the most obnoxious Bant-mmander since Derevi, Empyrial Tactician by December. Fun with Adventure, a fun alternative to Roon as a blink/EtB tribal commander, interesting with various tribes like Elves, Druids, and Humans, and will almost assuredly ignore all of that to draw his entire library with Shrieking Drake. Four stars.

Korvold, Fae-Cursed King: I misread this guy at first, and on second read holy cats. I didn't think they could make an aristocrats/foodchain-style Jund commander more dangerous than the infamous Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, but, well, there it is. Drawing a card whenever you sacrifice any permanent, including fetchlands and treasure, is insane. He comes down a turn sooner than Prossh and has different synergies, but this noble dragon is coming to eat some tables near you I think. Ruthless Deathfang and Smothering Abomination see very little play, but costing less, in the commander slot, with a way to enable himself, and triggering off all permanents instead of just creatures, is very powerful. Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest has proven quite bonkers and this is arguably more gross. I can't say enough about how good Koro is. Four stars.

Alela, Artful Provocateur: I wouldn't be surprised if Alela ended up as a top 5 Esper Commander. Vampire Nighthawk is a fine statline for a commander, offering offense, defense, and a great body to enchant/equip. Favorable Winds already makes this a fine commander for Faeries or a "skies" style tempo deck. But the real selling point is that she's now the ultimate Esper-Enchantress Commander, tacking on a 2/1 flying body to every enchantment, and she triggers off artifacts too for extra versatility. Oh, and creature - Warlock makes me insanely happy. At 3 CMC I think she might have a real shot at unseating Troloro and Zur - at four, she's still great. Three stars.

Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale: Probably the loser of the bunch. She's obviously fun as a Knight Tribal or Equipment Tribal commander, but six mana is a lot and her comboes are going to be painfully obvious (Argentum Armor, Colossus Hammer). She's still pretty good, but these other three are in contention for best-in-color-combo, and Syr Gwyn is merely okay. Two stars.

UNIQUE CARDS:
Mace of the Valiant: Like a mediocre Cathars' Crusade, and in many decks is just straight worse than Veteran's Armaments, Pennon Blade, and Stoneforge Masterwork - none of which are exactly tearing up the format. I wouldn't run this outside of the most dedicated of Knight Tribal decks where it was equip 0 - it isn't even in the "good timmy fun" category honestly, considering how much work one has to put into it for it to be better than a simple Vulshok Wargear or Greatsword. Zero stars.

Silverwing Squadron: Crusader of Odric for twice the cost feels like a bad deal, even with Flying + Vigilance. This would need to safely attack multiple times to feel worthwhile at six CMC. Not great outside of dedicated Knight Tribal and even then is likely among the worst cards in your deck. One star.

Shimmer Dragon: Seems like a fine top-end to an artifact deck. Being a dragon also has some relevance; decks like Scion of the Ur Dragon like running lots of mana rocks so turning them into late-game card draw is gas. I imagine there are ways to infinite with this, although most are convoluted enough that there's better ways to win. Still a bit narrow, but totally fine in the right deck of which there are many: Three stars.

Workshop Elders: This is effectively an 8/8 for eight with four of the power having Haste and Flying, so it isn't terrible in an artifact deck. It's also not amazing, and I can't imagine it especially as the most popular blue-based commanders have plenty of ways to animate artifacts already. Fun, but nonessential. One star.

Chittering Witch: On average this is a 5/5 for four spread across four bodies - Sengir Autocrat, eat your heart out. The sac outlet is super medium in Commander - two mana is a lot and -2/-2 isn't enough to kill most targets, but at least it is text. A blast in Rat decks, and an acceptable card in sac decks generally. Two stars.

Embereth Skyblazer: A 4/3 flying on your turn isn't amazing, and the pump ability is REALLY expensive for +3/+0. Fine in Knights, mediocre elsewhere, not something I'd be looking to run. One star.

Thorn Mammoth: Everything looks small next to Apex Altisaur but this is still rock-solid. Two stars.

Steelbane Hydra: Hydra Tribal is a hungry deck, but this looks a bit mediocre even by that standard and is so slow everywhere else - it's eight mana for a non-deathtouch Acidic slime, and even with a payment plan and some Proliferate potential that seems bad. One star.

Banish into Fable: That's a lot of hoops to jump through for a trio of man-o-wars, and it's in the wrong colors for Knight Tribal. Fun but mediocre. One star.

Gluttonous Troll: Meh. One star.

Knight's Charge: A Sanctum Seeker effect for Knights is fine. The backup text is stupid-costly but it is Plan Z. Fine in Knights although not noticeably better than Etchings of the Chosen. Two stars.

Arcane Signet: Much has already been written of the best mana rock this side of Sol Ring. All self-respecting players will need a copy for every deck. Five stars. Curse you Gavin!

Tome of Legends: Not quite a staple - you really need a cheap and/or aggressive commander, and the hoops mean that the average Blue and Black deck probably has better draw. Still an auto-include in all Boros decks, and worth considering in any non-blue deck with a commander of CMC 3 or less. I'm even toying with it for Daretti. Three stars.

OVERALL: I feel like the commanders are insanely pushed, likely because 3 colors in Standard is hard and most of the broken comboes you can do with them aren't in Standard. As a result, all of them except the Knight are likely to really take off and shake it up in our beloved Commander format. The cards in the '59 (and for the '99) on the other hand are really safe since they have to be fair in Standard - and as a result, only Arcane Signet, Tome of Legends, and the blue dragon feel worth chasing down for the average collector and brewer. If you want the most value, buy Chulane - you get Chulane, a Signet, and Tome of Legends. The Knight deck is the worst, with narrow mediocre cards and the worst commander.

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gilrad
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Post by gilrad » 2 years ago

For those with Karador or Muldrotha lists, it's looking like the adventure mechanic plays well with them, allowing you to cast adventure cards from your graveyard. Nothing particularly stands out for me so far but I'm sure there's going to be at least one super value adventure out there before it's all spoiled.

Mothership article:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-09-04

Important bit:
"As you're casting this foreboding-yet-strangely-beautiful card, you choose which part, creature or Adventure, you're casting."
and
"While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure"
So it looks like rather than using split card rules, adventures are more like alternative casting costs that you may choose to use as you are casting the spell.

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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 2 years ago

Touche, Throne of Eldraine. Touche.

Alela and Korvold are pretty tempting to build. It's annoying losing for an Enchantress deck, but I haven't liked any of the options for Enchantress (or previously tried them and never got anywhere) anyway. Sorta similar for Jund, never liked or had any luck with any previous Commanders. Bonus points for being a Dragon, and a Noble to boot.

On a similar typing note, the aforementioned Noble and the Warlock typings now existing are pretty frickin sweet.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 2 years ago

Heard people complaining about Syr Gwyn because knights are bad and 6 mana is too much
Look at Syr Gwyn
Look at knight exemplar and kinsbaile cavalier
Look at colossus hammer and sunforger

Well.....

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

maeos wrote:
2 years ago
SocorroTortoise wrote:
2 years ago
I think you may be misunderstanding adventure (understandable, since the mechanics article explaining it was published this morning). You can cast the adventure half from hand and it will exile itself on resolution instead of going to the GY. You can then cast the creature from exile. Anywhere other than in hand, the card may as well not have the adventure text.
FML ... i thought you cast the spell once the creature was on the battlefield T.T welp there goes my hopes and dreams of a recurring spell
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Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Banish into Fable looks like it has possibilities
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Post by FoxOfWar » 2 years ago

...so there I was, already considering that my Esper deck (Varina zombies) had gotten a bit stale, straightforward to actually play so was on the market for another Esper ponderation. While also planning what to spice up my 'flying matters' Azorius deck with.

Apparently I am spicing said deck up with black now. Alela, Artful Provocateur is ridiculous and I love her. The latter ability is just adding more flying tokens to the things the deck would be casting anyway(manarocks and anthems and whatnot), and black nicely adds ways to get rid of opposing flying/reach things. Also get to play very much pet cards Undying Evil and Supernatural Stamina since Alela is obviously a big target.
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75chan
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Post by 75chan » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:Korvold, Fae-Cursed King: I misread this guy at first, and on second read holy cats. I didn't think they could make an aristocrats/foodchain-style Jund commander more dangerous than the infamous Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, but, well, there it is.
One thing to keep in mind is that Korvold doesn't go infinite with Food Chain & no Squee, unlike Prossh who just needs an outlet. I don't think he really challenges anything for food chain shenanigans (aristocrats being a different story, he's probably great there, and he probably runs Food Chain there, but Prossh is still more dangerous, I think. I don't play Food Chain so I'm not sure).
Hawk wrote:Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale: Probably the loser of the bunch. She's obviously fun as a Knight Tribal or Equipment Tribal commander, but six mana is a lot and her comboes are going to be painfully obvious (Argentum Armor, Colossus Hammer). She's still pretty good, but these other three are in contention for best-in-color-combo, and Syr Gwyn is merely okay. Two stars.
I disagree. It's going to be fun to brew some kind of sunforger combo around her, not sure if I'll actually make the deck in paper though.
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Me three, but I had strong doubts after Smitten Swordmaster, which would've been a bit too pushed. I'm really hoping to get an adventure card for any of my decks, but I'm not particularly excited after what I've seen so far. Honestly apart from Arcane Signet (which goes into 5/6 decks), nothing else from the set is even remotely close to being included in any of my decks. There's some decent cards, but sadly nothing that fits my decks.
I swap decks a lot
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and some other stuff that are more or less messy


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SocorroTortoise
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
Embereth Skyblazer: A 4/3 flying on your turn isn't amazing, and the pump ability is REALLY expensive for +3/+0. Fine in Knights, mediocre elsewhere, not something I'd be looking to run. One star.
I generally agree with your assessments but don't think you're giving this one enough credit. Four power and evasion for 4 CMC is a fine, if not good, rate and the triggered ability buffs your entire board. Similar boardwide firebreathing abilities in the past have either come on an artifact or enchantment that did nothing else, a more expensive creature, or at a higher mana cost per point of power. I don't know that this is good but it's closer to what I'm interested in playing and at least worth a shot.
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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

Oooo, I didn't realize Keeper of Fables was a cat. Some fun tribes in this set.

Fun to contrast Alela with Kykar.
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Hermes_
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Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

All That Glitters will be bonkers in my Akiri, Line-Slinger deck
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

Serenade wrote:
2 years ago
Oooo, I didn't realize Keeper of Fables was a cat. Some fun tribes in this set.
I was really excited about this cat in my changeling tribal... until I read it a second time.

Cards I'm looking forward to getting
Foulmire Knight - Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Gilded Goose - My Damia 1cc green creatures deck
Tournament Grounds - Changeling deck
Knight's Charge - Changeling deck (maybe)

Midnight Clock as my current card favorite card based purely on flavor
Steelbane Hydra noteworthy as it is a turtle hydra, which is amazing

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Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

If not for brawl, i would be very confused by cards that reference "your commander"'s being in a normal set. lol
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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

"While ~ is on the battlefield, just ignore the Adventure and all its text. While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure."

So Adventure is more akin to a "spell-like ability" since you ignore its property everywhere except the time you cast it. You cannot flashback it either with Snapcaster Mage since it's a creature card in graveyard. Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.

A little disappointed, I was hoping Adventures would be like bestow from Theros where you could decide the card-type you cast at anytime.

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Post by Artaud » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
"While ~ is on the battlefield, just ignore the Adventure and all its text. While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure."

So Adventure is more akin to a "spell-like ability" since you ignore its property everywhere except the time you cast it. You cannot flashback it either with Snapcaster Mage since it's a creature card in graveyard. Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.

A little disappointed, I was hoping Adventures would be like bestow from Theros where you could decide the card-type you cast at anytime.
You may cast Foulmire Knight's Adventure from graveyard with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge out... wait - nobody plays Haakon anywhere. Still disappointed then...

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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

Artaud wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
"While ~ is on the battlefield, just ignore the Adventure and all its text. While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure."

So Adventure is more akin to a "spell-like ability" since you ignore its property everywhere except the time you cast it. You cannot flashback it either with Snapcaster Mage since it's a creature card in graveyard. Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.

A little disappointed, I was hoping Adventures would be like bestow from Theros where you could decide the card-type you cast at anytime.
You may cast Foulmire Knight's Adventure from graveyard with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge out... wait - nobody plays Haakon anywhere. Still disappointed then...
I do actually, in my Ertai, the Corrupted deck.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Artaud wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
"While ~ is on the battlefield, just ignore the Adventure and all its text. While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure."

So Adventure is more akin to a "spell-like ability" since you ignore its property everywhere except the time you cast it. You cannot flashback it either with Snapcaster Mage since it's a creature card in graveyard. Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.

A little disappointed, I was hoping Adventures would be like bestow from Theros where you could decide the card-type you cast at anytime.
You may cast Foulmire Knight's Adventure from graveyard with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge out... wait - nobody plays Haakon anywhere. Still disappointed then...
I do, actually, he's a great Entomb target to buy me an arbitrarily large number of crib swaps and Nameless inversions. And he's a self Recurring 3/3 which is passable on it's own.

Those spells also trigger my Alesha's Vanquisher's Banner (set to slivers) to draw me some extra cards. reading cards is hard sometimes guys. 🙄😐
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Post by Artaud » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Artaud wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
"While ~ is on the battlefield, just ignore the Adventure and all its text. While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure."

So Adventure is more akin to a "spell-like ability" since you ignore its property everywhere except the time you cast it. You cannot flashback it either with Snapcaster Mage since it's a creature card in graveyard. Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.

A little disappointed, I was hoping Adventures would be like bestow from Theros where you could decide the card-type you cast at anytime.
You may cast Foulmire Knight's Adventure from graveyard with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge out... wait - nobody plays Haakon anywhere. Still disappointed then...
I do, actually, he's a great Entomb target to buy me an arbitrarily large number of crib swaps and Nameless inversions. And he's a self Recurring 3/3 which is passable on it's own.

Those spells also trigger my Alesha's Vanquisher's Banner (set to slivers) to draw me some extra cards.
Glad to see that but in my experience he's usually the first cut in any deck I try to fit him in. When I cast Entomb I usually have something much more important to Reanimate. I'll give him next chance in Varina but still I wonder if Foulmire Knight will be worth the efford. Maybe other adventuring zombie-knights will show up...

EDIT: I'm not sure if Tribal spells trigger Vanquisher's Banner. It states "creature spell of the chosen type" while Tribal is not creature...

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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

I'm suddenly much more excited for Adventure cards because I noticed they work really well with Possibility Storm and Primal Surge. I've been in the awkward state of having Primal Surge as the only sorcery in one of my decks for a while, which means I have no way to Possibility Storm into it. Will finally have a way to cheat it out, which is nice. Adventure cards also work much better with Cascade than Morph does - having to cast a morph creature face-up always feels bad, while having the option to choose between the creature and the adventure sounds great.

....I'm really curious how the CMC of adventure cards is calculated now. Depending on what adventure cards are printed, there could be some interesting interactions. 'Bloodbraid ElfFlaxen Intruder → cast Welcome Home' is a bit tame as things go, but could have some interesting implications. Alternatively, casting the bigger half off of As Foretold, similar to how Brain in a Jar used to work with split cards.

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Post by Wallycaine » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
"While ~ is on the battlefield, just ignore the Adventure and all its text. While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure."

So Adventure is more akin to a "spell-like ability" since you ignore its property everywhere except the time you cast it. You cannot flashback it either with Snapcaster Mage since it's a creature card in graveyard. Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.
I do believe that, based on some stuff the rules manager has been saying on twitter, the Adventure cards have a weird interaction with stuff that let's you cast from the graveyard/other places. Basically, you don't check legality until it's on the stack, at which point it is the Adventure instant or sorcery. So Karador won't let you cast the Adventure half from the grave, because when you check legality it's not a creature anymore, while you could cast the creature normally. But Kess, Dissident Mage would let you cast the Adventure half, but not the Creature (until after the Adventure resolves and exiles it, anyways). Barring big surprises in the full rules text, anyways.

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Post by bobthefunny » 2 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.
I do believe that, based on some stuff the rules manager has been saying on twitter, the Adventure cards have a weird interaction with stuff that let's you cast from the graveyard/other places. Basically, you don't check legality until it's on the stack, at which point it is the Adventure instant or sorcery. So Karador won't let you cast the Adventure half from the grave, because when you check legality it's not a creature anymore, while you could cast the creature normally.
This came about thanks to Aurelia's Fury and Bestow cards. Basically, in order to get Aurelia's Fury to correctly stop Bestow, they had to change when legality is check for casting a spell.

Based on that precedent, I'm fairly certain that Karador, Muldrotha, and Haakon will NOT be able to cast adventures from the GY. They'd have to change some loopy rules.

I was wondering about that based on the descriptions of adventures, but wanted to wait a bit more until I saw the full rules to see what it would shake out to be. WotC has done weirder before.

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 years ago

bobthefunny wrote:
2 years ago
Wallycaine wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Though as Gilrad suggested, any ability that let you cast creatures from graveyard would also let you cast the Adventure half of the card.
I do believe that, based on some stuff the rules manager has been saying on twitter, the Adventure cards have a weird interaction with stuff that let's you cast from the graveyard/other places. Basically, you don't check legality until it's on the stack, at which point it is the Adventure instant or sorcery. So Karador won't let you cast the Adventure half from the grave, because when you check legality it's not a creature anymore, while you could cast the creature normally.
This came about thanks to Aurelia's Fury and Bestow cards. Basically, in order to get Aurelia's Fury to correctly stop Bestow, they had to change when legality is check for casting a spell.

Based on that precedent, I'm fairly certain that Karador, Muldrotha, and Haakon will NOT be able to cast adventures from the GY. They'd have to change some loopy rules.

I was wondering about that based on the descriptions of adventures, but wanted to wait a bit more until I saw the full rules to see what it would shake out to be. WotC has done weirder before.
Yeah, I was hesitant to start spreading that until I saw the Rules Manager confirming stuff based off that interpretation. So it sounds like there won't be any huge rules changes to that part.

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