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JWK
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
11 months ago
pokken wrote:
11 months ago
JWK wrote:
11 months ago
I think Kodama would be powerful, but ultimately fine, without partner. Adding in partner bumps up the problem level exponentially, and makes it the obvious exception to Gavin's stated goal of being careful with partner this time around.
Both 'powerful but ultimately fine' and "exponentially" feel like exaggerations. What partners is it going to be a problem with? It doesn't really synergize with any of the existing 2 color partners much at all that I can see.

As a mono green commander, I think you'd need to do some work to convince me that it's even in the top 10.

Just looking at the ability on its face, you have to put in some serious work before Kodama generates more than the 6 initial mana it cost when used fairly. Just replacement-mana-wise, you need to have two 7-drops in your hand and cast one to get a positive return on your investment immediately (that means spending 13 mana to get 14).

It also enables some really medium wombo-combos like Field of the Dead and a bounce land, but when you've set that up with 2 land drops and a Kodama and still have to pass the turn to win, I am not sure that's even worth worrying about.

Beyond that, what partner pairs with Kodama to create even a Yarok, the Desecrated level threat? I can't think of anything.
That echoes my thoughts. Nothing about Kodama seems particularly worse than a strong green/Blue/something commander. Like, Yarok's one, another that comes to mind is Chulane, Teller of Tales. I'm not really sure Kodama's particularly scarier than either of those, even with a partner.
"Isn't worse than Chulane or Yarok" doesn't say much. The fact that we are comparing Kodama to those ones kind of makes my point. He is at a power level beyond that of the other partner commanders from this set, and I think beyond that of any of the other commanders from this set. Is he going to break the format more than Chulane or Korvold did? No. But we don't really need more commanders at that level, and we were told none of the partner ones would be as broken as the original partners, and I think Kodama fails to live up to that promise.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by Wallycaine » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
11 months ago
pokken wrote:
11 months ago


Both 'powerful but ultimately fine' and "exponentially" feel like exaggerations. What partners is it going to be a problem with? It doesn't really synergize with any of the existing 2 color partners much at all that I can see.

As a mono green commander, I think you'd need to do some work to convince me that it's even in the top 10.

Just looking at the ability on its face, you have to put in some serious work before Kodama generates more than the 6 initial mana it cost when used fairly. Just replacement-mana-wise, you need to have two 7-drops in your hand and cast one to get a positive return on your investment immediately (that means spending 13 mana to get 14).

It also enables some really medium wombo-combos like Field of the Dead and a bounce land, but when you've set that up with 2 land drops and a Kodama and still have to pass the turn to win, I am not sure that's even worth worrying about.

Beyond that, what partner pairs with Kodama to create even a Yarok, the Desecrated level threat? I can't think of anything.
That echoes my thoughts. Nothing about Kodama seems particularly worse than a strong green/Blue/something commander. Like, Yarok's one, another that comes to mind is Chulane, Teller of Tales. I'm not really sure Kodama's particularly scarier than either of those, even with a partner.
"Isn't worse than Chulane or Yarok" doesn't say much. The fact that we are comparing Kodama to those ones kind of makes my point. He is at a power level beyond that of the other partner commanders from this set, and I think beyond that of any of the other commanders from this set. Is he going to break the format more than Chulane or Korvold did? No. But we don't really need more commanders at that level, and we were told none of the partner ones would be as broken as the original partners, and I think Kodama fails to live up to that promise.
Was that something we were told? Because I recall a lot of talk about making sure they were balanced, but nothing specifically about not being at the same power level as the original partners. Which, to me, implies that Gavin's and wizards idea of what makes a commander broken and yours are not the same.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
As I've already stated, I have already seen Kodama in action with a couple of the original two-colored partners (Thrassios and something Dimir, I think, I don't recall because it was never cast). Adding blue into the equation gives Kodama a lot of protection and interactive capacity, plus G+B = incredible card draw, which equates to keeping the hand full, which allows Kodama to function in a more maximized capacity. Even if the other partner is never cast (which is what happened in both the games I was in), the value was pretty incredible. I could see Ishai also being strong, because adding flicker/bounce is another way to benefit a lot from Kodama's ability, plus white offers strong interactive and staxy options to the mix.
Can you walk us through a couple lines of play?

I'm not seeing any "value" from Kodama, it's purely a ramp commander - you play something and it triggers essentially ramp. If you think of it as Mana Reflection it's not too far off (although worse in some ways and better in others -- can trigger extra lands, but can't double >1 producers).

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
But we don't really need more commanders at that level, and we were told none of the partner ones would be as broken as the original partners, and I think Kodama fails to live up to that promise.
Kodama is nowhere near as good as the S tier partners -
And not anywhere near the A-tier commanders:
He's probably not even the strongest of the new partners. Overall I think he's weaker than Malcolm Keen-Eyed Navigator.

Do you think it's really that big of a deal that Kodama is of a power level with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix or Reyhan, Last of the Abzan?

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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

Well, we finally have our ooze lord and ooze commander
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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

pokken wrote:
11 months ago
He's probably not even the strongest of the new partners.
In terms of cEDH I can't speak for that, but have every reason to agree knowing that you play your fair share.

In terms of casual EDH, I'm not sure I'm interested in playing the sort of deck that Kodama would be at the helm of. It's pretty stupid with Malcolm Keen-Eyed Navigator or anything else that generates treasure/tokens. While it's not going to be doing anything that green isn't already capable of, namely turbo-ramp and big stompies, my issue with the card is that it's just giving you everything you'd want on a platter. Why would you want to even consider brewing a deck where there's almost zero challenge in additions? You could almost put anything in it and have it work just fine.

Coincidentally this is my issue with most Simic commanders. That guild basically has no color pie identity for me anymore, every new commander is ramp+draw = Simic, here you go, win the game, combo off. It's just so boring, to me. I want to have to actually work for my win and think through lines of play to negotiate a boardstate, not just innately generate an amount of resource so obscene that the table can't keep up. Part of the fun of this format is having to pilot well to win, and just like any new Simic, the commander in question just doesn't need that, it's a cast and win commander.

My two cents. I think it's a fail, but I'm not clamoring for a ban or anything, I just think its a poorly designed card.
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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 11 months ago

Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty looks hilarious, and potentially busted. I'm going to have to do some brewing, even if I don't end up building it. I'm increasingly conflicted with whether I want to jam all the cascaaaaade cards in my Animar deck.... or if I'm just going to make an entirely separate Averna, the Chaos Bloom deck.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

Oh boy oh boy, another simic ramp-value dude. Doesn't seem as bad as Snek Tatyova or Kinnan, but looks like it slots right into the cz of similar goodstuff shells.
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Serenade
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Post by Serenade » 11 months ago

I remain furious that snakes and naga are two different creature types.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.


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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

Would Averna, the Chaos Bloom trigger separately for each cascade on Apex Devastator ?
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Post by WizardMN » 11 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
Would Averna, the Chaos Bloom trigger separately for each cascade on Apex Devastator ?
It isn't a trigger, but yes, she will work for each of the four Cascades allowing for up to 4 lands to be put onto the battlefield

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Post by Dragoon » 11 months ago

Mookie wrote:
11 months ago
Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty looks hilarious, and potentially busted. I'm going to have to do some brewing, even if I don't end up building it. I'm increasingly conflicted with whether I want to jam all the cascaaaaade cards in my Animar deck.... or if I'm just going to make an entirely separate Averna, the Chaos Bloom deck.
Same, my random Golos deck will certainly end up with a substantially inflated cascade package, I'm wondering if I'll have enough cascade cards to justify including Averna, the Chaos Bloom though, that deck severely lacks good thematic ramp.
Decklist(s) on this forum: WUBRG [Golos] Maelstrom 2: Erratic Boogaloo (randomness themed deck) WUBRG

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 11 months ago

Imoti is nuts in Maelstrom Wanderer. Not only am I casting MW 5-7 times per game, but I must have 20 cards that would get the cascade from Imoti.
Averna should be good in the deck too.

Imoti will also allow me to cascade off of cards cast with Etali, Primal Storm.
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Post by Dunharrow » 11 months ago

I hope there is a bear that says something like Whenever you cascade, scry 1.
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Post by Gashnaw » 11 months ago

Would Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty add cascades to card that already have cascade, like Maelstrom Wanderer and Apex Devastator
Last edited by Gashnaw 11 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

Image
Oh hey it's a literal elfball. Not as good as Nath but it won't make everyone hate you like Nath. Opens up an aristocrats version of elves which looks cool.
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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 11 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
Image
Oh hey it's a literal elfball. Not as good as Nath but it won't make everyone hate you like Nath. Opens up an aristocrats version of elves which looks cool.
Translation, the most i got was
Abomination of Llanowar and Vigilance

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Serenade
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Post by Serenade » 11 months ago

Can't figure out Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. Is he spellslinger and/or wrath.dec? Do you wrath and blink him in response? That hexproof is so weird. I kinda love it.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by Guardman » 11 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
11 months ago
Would Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty add cascades to card that already have cascade, like Maelstrom Wanderer and Apex Devastator
Yes. So if you control Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty, Apex Devastator would then have five instances of Cascade.

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Gashnaw
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Post by Gashnaw » 11 months ago

Guardman wrote:
11 months ago
Gashnaw wrote:
11 months ago
Would Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty add cascades to card that already have cascade, like Maelstrom Wanderer and Apex Devastator
Yes. So if you control Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty, Apex Devastator would then have five instances of Cascade.
I am SO building maelstrom.

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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 11 months ago

Larry Niven is really weird and interesting. My gut reaction is that he's similar to Child of Alara but can actually generate a board presence. He'll probably be bad and annoying but I dig it.

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Serenade
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Post by Serenade » 11 months ago

Juri has that Karn Evil 9 vibe. Love him.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by Wallycaine » 11 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
11 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
Image
Oh hey it's a literal elfball. Not as good as Nath but it won't make everyone hate you like Nath. Opens up an aristocrats version of elves which looks cool.
Translation, the most i got was
Abomination of Llanowar and Vigilance
Vigilance, menace, power and toughness is equal to number of your elves in play and in your graveyard

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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

"Run!" Cry the mouths of living. "Come!" Say the dead.
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Post by RedCheese » 11 months ago

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant

Varina needed a king for her afterall :)

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