Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Hermes_
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Post by Hermes_ » 5 months ago

Okay, i'm pretty excited mainly because there's actual kind of hard choices to make regarding partners for my ariki voltron

so far:
Keleth, Sunmane Familiar
Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar
Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh
Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist
__

Apex Devastator needs more cascade

lol the flavor text Wrong Turn

I think folks would rather just ditch two Plague Reaver
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Candlemane
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Post by Candlemane » 5 months ago

So on the Turtle and the Magician:

The turtle has U which is largely the color of tap effect manipulation. G also has some tap effects, mostly for lands (or regeneration if you want to stretch that real far), and B traditionally has the punishment for tapped creatures or permanents, the other major one being lands (like Polluted Bonds).

The Magician is a little harder. Flavor wise it's a fine addition with R for that "in the moment" kind of thing. Red has had some forays into enchantments before with things like Uril and Vulduk. Not a strong inclusion, but it's been there, usually with Auras. If this is something they could maybe take from G and give to R, I'd be for that a bit. (W however just needs anything... like card draw...)

While the answers from wizards people might be... erhm... subpar, there can be justifications, even if they aren't great. Unfortunately, theirs are terrible most of the time.

Edited for bad English.
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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

Friendship ended with Maelstrom Wanderer. Now Apex Devastator is best friend.
Have I mentioned cascaaaaade is one of my favorite mechanics?

Rootweaver Druid is also quite interesting as a way to accelerate the whole table. Reminds me a bit of Tempt with Discovery, although a bit more symmetric. That said, it's also somewhat easier for opponents to decline - if no one accepts, you get nothing. The fact that each opponent gets two lands for the one land you get means that they're heavily incentivized to accept though, so it should usually be 'opponents ramp by 2, you ramp by 3'. Gets a lot worse in games with fewer players though.

Hans Eriksson is hilarious as a way to cheat out nonsense (and probably die in the process). Or you can just use him as a draw engine (or cheat out little things).

Obeka, Brute Chronologist is interesting with Encore / Unearth, as others have observed.

Cuombajj Witches have some fantastic new art.

Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist and Armored Skyhunter both look like very solid options for equipment-based decks. Free equips are good. Also, Balan, Wandering Knight is crying.

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Rumpy5897
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 5 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
5 months ago
I haven't seen a single Golos.
Kodama has entered the chat

Given how 2019 went, the fact there's all of one mindless goodstuff engine in the set is really not that bad though. I guffawed out loud when I saw Hans. Ardenn beautifully shores up the mana intensiveness weakness of equipment strategies. Cool stuff all around.
 
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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 5 months ago

Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist obviously has the equipment strengths and I'm obsessed with Sunforger so feel like I'll find a home with at least a red partner.

However I like the fact that you could pair up "curses" as you can move them about. The problem with curses in the past is that once attached to a player they are stuck to them.
Here you can be quite political with threatening to move them onto a particular player if they get frisky or whoever is getting ahead at that stage of the game.
Same with detrimental Auras like Darksteel Mutation or even Control Magic to steal a new creature at the beginning of combat.

I literally just finished brewing a deck around Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel and Anara, Lupine Familiar and posted up in the forums now.

I had already made decks around Ghen, Arcanum Weaver and Obeka, Brute Chronologist but they hadn't been "officially" spoiled until now. You can check them all out for my takes, links are in my signature.

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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

Apex Devastator and Hans Eriksson join the long list of new random cards that might join my random Golos deck. Although I'm a bit sad that half of my creatures kill Hans on the spot, but he looks so much fun xD
I'm very pleased with the set so far !
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Serenade
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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Can't wait for my Golos player to hit Apex Devastator... /s
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
Not in this set specifically, more just in general. Zendikar rising has 17 legendaries, which is actually a little low compared to our recent averages. You know how many the original Zendikar had (which is around when I started playing the format and before wotc started trying to market towards it)? A whopping 4. And they're all mono-colored.
Yeah and in Zendikar rising they are all monocolor and bicolor, with 1 quadricolor and 1 pentacolor. Only 1 tricolor if you count the precons too.
I agree with you that they are printing more legends, but they are doing it for business. Commander is the most successfull format and by far. It's natural that they want to cash in.
I don't understand the problems with tricolor. They are not proliferating. They are rarely printed in the standard sets and that's they print them in precons. And they are surely way healthier for the format and more fun than pentacolor,

This set is giving us a lot of new tricolored archetypes, why shouldn't we be happy?

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
5 months ago
Yeah and in Zendikar rising they are all monocolor and bicolor, with 1 quadricolor and 1 pentacolor. Only 1 tricolor if you count the precons too.
I agree with you that they are printing more legends, but they are doing it for business. Commander is the most successfull format and by far. It's natural that they want to cash in.
I don't understand the problems with tricolor. They are not proliferating. They are rarely printed in the standard sets and that's they print them in precons. And they are surely way healthier for the format and more fun than pentacolor,

This set is giving us a lot of new tricolored archetypes, why shouldn't we be happy?
From my last post after thinking about it more, I agree that it's mostly the precons that have saturated the 3c market. Although the frequency has gone up in normal sets too, especially core sets that tend to be less mechanically focused and can get away with throwing in a 3c cycle (which would be harder in, say, ravnica where everything is built around 2c pairs) and which usually want a sales push more than splashier sets. That said, the precon decks alone are often dumping 15 new tri-color commanders into the pool every year, and usually at least one cycle a year in standard sets. But it's also just a ton of new legends in general. There are almost 100 legends in standard right now, and that's just after rotation, and it doesn't even include any of the precon commanders. That is kinda mind-boggling. I'd estimate it's roughly 5x the pre-wotc-targeting rate, and again that's not even considering the precons on top of that.

I think I've elucidated why I don't love the proliferation of multicolor commanders, and commanders in general, and how it's being driven by sales and not in a more organic fashion. It has plus sides too, of course, but it feels a lot more corporate and a lot less magical to me. Does it make sense, business-wise? For sure. But that doesn't mean it's good for the game, or that I have to like it.

Kind of irrelevant at this point, but the more I think about it, there's no reason Ghen couldn't have just been mono-white tbh. Looking at cards with "sacrifice an enchantment" on them, 75% are white, and 50% are mono-white. And cards with the text "return target enchantment card" are 75% mono-white. And a whopping ONE of all those cards from both categories are red or black (Shattergang Brothers, and it's obvious that mechanically the enchantment part is the green part of the card). So GTFO with this flimsy RB enchantress justification. The only reason he's tri-color is to sell packs. Is he maybe fun to play? Yeah, probably, but it's nevertheless harder and harder not to feel like we're all being strapped into milking machines.

Ooh, Jeweled lotus is well over $100. Neat.

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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Man, monowhite Ghen in this set would have been so cool.

Because I'd finally have an enchantress partner. (Not too late yet for a green friend!)

On-topic: Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh is missing partner in its text on this site. That means we have all the red partners, right? (Eight total per color?)
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

Yeah but not give other colors to Ghen? Why not give him black to add some curses and red help the sacrifice subtheme?
Plenty of legendaries could have been monocolor. Prossh can be monoblack, Gishath can be monogreen and Atraxa can be dimir.
It's nice to have more option. There were 0 enchantment options for commander in mardu (yet there enchantment-related cards), now there is 1.

We are totally being milked. A lot. These kind of sets, sets like jump-start, the secret lairs... they almost all here to milk the commander players.
And yeah, it's getting to the point that it's too much. It's getting bad.
But Ghen is not a sympton neither a consequence of this. He's just a peculiar general for a peculiar strategy. Let people enjoy their mardu curse deck. Let people enjoy sacrificing their Treacherous Blessing to reanimate form of the dragon and then sacrifice form of the dragon before the end step. these kind of decks are hurting no one.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
5 months ago
Yeah but not give other colors to Ghen? Why not give him black to add some curses and red help the sacrifice subtheme?
Plenty of legendaries could have been monocolor. Prossh can be monoblack, Gishath can be monogreen and Atraxa can be dimir.
It's nice to have more option. There were 0 enchantment options for commander in mardu (yet there enchantment-related cards), now there is 1.

We are totally being milked. A lot. These kind of sets, sets like jump-start, the secret lairs... they almost all here to milk the commander players.
And yeah, it's getting to the point that it's too much. It's getting bad.
But Ghen is not a sympton neither a consequence of this. He's just a peculiar general for a peculiar strategy. Let people enjoy their mardu curse deck. Let people enjoy sacrificing their Treacherous Blessing to reanimate form of the dragon and then sacrifice form of the dragon before the end step. these kind of decks are hurting no one.
Black doesn't make kobold tokens nor is it primary for power-pumping. If anything I'd say Prossh is mono-red instead of mono-black. Green definitely feels a bit tacked-on, although given devour across jund I don't think it's totally out of line.

Green gets haste and vigilance secondary at best, so just from keywords (admittedly a boring place to get them) he can easily justify RW.

Atraxa wouldn't have vigilance as dimir (same caveat as above ofc), so it'd at least be esper. Blue has the most proliferate, but tbh I think it does make more sense in green since green usually cares more about counters. Not to say that abilities aren't being tacked onto commanders to justify giving them more colors, which is an adjacent problem.

If I agree with you that those legends also have tacked on colors (which I sort of do, albeit in a different way than Ghen who doesn't really justify his colors whatsoever since everything he does is primary in white) I feel like that just proves my point. And I don't have any love lost on those legendaries either, so you're not making me throw my baby out with the bathwater.

Who said anything about decks hurting anyone? Ghen IS a symptom, but that doesn't mean he can't be fun. I'm not saying don't play him, and honestly there are tons of more egregious commanders out there. In terms of how much Ghen annoys me re:wotc milking us, he's a pebble on a giant pyramid. The point has never really been about the specific cards, but about WotC's prioritizing of short-term gains over long-term health and how they're targeting commander players to maximize profits. Color bleed to satisfy commander players, printing a million legendary creatures, printing too many products to keep up with, and of course TWD printing cards for ludicrous prices while cutting out LGSs and sacrificing the flavor of the game to expand their audience. Ghen is just a tiny little blip compared to the bigger stuff. But people keep responding to me on here so I guess I gotta keep justifying myself when I never felt that strongly about him. shrug.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

My thoughts re: color creep:
One of the fundamental things baked into Magic is the color system. If you want to cast a spell, you have to have access to its colors. This means that there is an inherent tradeoff between power and consistency - a monocolor deck will be more consistent, but less powerful because it can always have access to its colors, but doesn't have access to as many effects. On the other hand, multicolor decks may have trouble casting their spells, but have access to more powerful spells.

However, as time has gone on, mana fixing has gotten way, way better. It's really easy to build a rock-solid three color manabase. This means that the cost in terms of consistency for running a multicolor deck has gone down over time. On the other hand, the number of cards printed to reward consistency in monocolor decks is significantly lower than the number of cards printed to reward splashing - the number of cards with heavy color requirements (ex: Ayara, First of Locthwain) are massively outnumbered by the number of splashable-but-still-powerful cards in the other four colors. This has meant the format has skewed heavily towards multicolor over time.

Another bit of tension is that in normal MTG, multicolor cards are meant to be more powerful, to go along with the increased difficulty in casting them. This bleeds over to EDH, making multicolor commanders almost always more powerful than monocolor commanders, even when ignoring the inherent benefit of access to more colors. I'll point to Drana, the Last Bloodchief vs Nethroi, Apex of Death as a recent example. Both are mythic legendary creatures for five mana that reanimate stuff... but one allows you to reanimate the worst creature in your graveyard on attack, while the other just outright reanimates almost your entire graveyard immediately. Add this to the previously-mentioned decreased difficulty in running multiple colors and it becomes very difficult to justify running fewer colors.

Anyway, I'd like to see more cards with heavy color weights, which I think would at least help counterbalance the problem - if you had to worry about casting Smothering Tithe because it cost 1WWW or Cyclonic Rift because it cost 4UUU to overload, we would see them splashed a lot less, and monocolor decks would be comparatively better.

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Post by RedCheese » 5 months ago

Tormod, the Desecrator

My favourite patner by far and isn't just because hes a zombie >.>

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Post by Cyberium » 5 months ago

I don't mind multi-color legends, or legends with a theme less common in their colors, as long as it fits flavor wise (Then appears to be a Tarkir Mardu mage, for one).

Though, I do miss the time when legends were designed entirely for flavor, where colors were added after the character established a lore, rather than WotC's "How many colors can I fit on this card" at the moment, then create a story as an afterthought. As DirkGently pointed out, each color needs to have its boundary, adding color to a legend gives more options but it also blurs the said boundary, much like decks these days with trove of mana ramp/fix, decision become less meaningful. There was a time when WotC makes enemy color generation more difficult "because they are rival colors", now the company just want to please the crowd.

I'm still hoping for more mono-color support in EDH, especially for white. If black gets a 3cc Opposition Agent who steals searches from opponents, white should at least have a 3cc creature that blocks off all of opponents' searches. (Aven Mincensor still allows top four cards)

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Post by nobody » 5 months ago

RedCheese wrote:
5 months ago
Tormod, the Desecrator

My favourite patner by far and isn't just because hes a zombie >.>
Hey its Tormod, everyone's favorite legendary creature.... right?

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Post by BeneTleilax » 5 months ago

Looks good in Varina.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
5 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
5 months ago
I haven't seen a single Golos.
Kodama has entered the chat
Yeah, among the legendary creatures, I consider Kodama the one obvious mistake spoiled so far. He would probably be okay - though still really powerful, and an auto-include in already-strong landfall decks - if he didn't have partner, but partnering him with some partner giving access to U pretty much ensures the Kodama player will have plenty of protection/answers and a full hand most of the time, which allows the Kodama player to make the most of its abilities.

I have played two games against Kodama partner decks online (one was a Kodama/Thrassios, the other was Kodama and some Dimir partner), and both times Kodama dominated the game pretty handily. For the most part, I think Gavin and his team did well at making partners that arent' broken. So far, Kodama is the one glaring exception.
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

It's so frustrating with kodama because I think just making it strictly less than, instead of less or equal, would have immediately made it way less of a problem, because it means lands don't do anything, in addition to making the ability weaker overall and shutting off a lot of potential combo nonsense. I think any sane person could have seen that Kodama was a really dangerous and pushed mechanic, idk how it slipped through as-is.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
It's so frustrating with kodama because I think just making it strictly less than, instead of less or equal, would have immediately made it way less of a problem, because it means lands don't do anything, in addition to making the ability weaker overall and shutting off a lot of potential combo nonsense. I think any sane person could have seen that Kodama was a really dangerous and pushed mechanic, idk how it slipped through as-is.
I don't believe it "slipped through," as its dangers are too obvious. I think Kodama, along with the Lotus, were made intentionally broken to help drive sales for the set, just like Omnath was put into a standard that already had Azusa, Lost but Seeking , Cultivate, Lotus Cobra and several other enablers. They had to know when developing this set that it would be coming out around the same time as a new landfall set, which would make Kodama even more appealing... and dangerous. The obvious care put into the other partner commanders makes it impossible to regard Kodama's brokenness as accidental.
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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

Kodama seems not anywhere near as egregious as most of the other problem commanders to me. Infinite unhasted zomboes with Field of the Dead? womp womp? And you gotta play a bunch of bouncelands to make it work which is far from ideal.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

pokken wrote:
5 months ago
Kodama seems not anywhere near as egregious as most of the other problem commanders to me. Infinite unhasted zomboes with Field of the Dead? womp womp? And you gotta play a bunch of bouncelands to make it work which is far from ideal.
I think Kodama would be powerful, but ultimately fine, without partner. Adding in partner bumps up the problem level exponentially, and makes it the obvious exception to Gavin's stated goal of being careful with partner this time around.
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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

JWK wrote:
5 months ago
I think Kodama would be powerful, but ultimately fine, without partner. Adding in partner bumps up the problem level exponentially, and makes it the obvious exception to Gavin's stated goal of being careful with partner this time around.
Both 'powerful but ultimately fine' and "exponentially" feel like exaggerations. What partners is it going to be a problem with? It doesn't really synergize with any of the existing 2 color partners much at all that I can see.

As a mono green commander, I think you'd need to do some work to convince me that it's even in the top 10.

Just looking at the ability on its face, you have to put in some serious work before Kodama generates more than the 6 initial mana it cost when used fairly. Just replacement-mana-wise, you need to have two 7-drops in your hand and cast one to get a positive return on your investment immediately (that means spending 13 mana to get 14).

It also enables some really medium wombo-combos like Field of the Dead and a bounce land, but when you've set that up with 2 land drops and a Kodama and still have to pass the turn to win, I am not sure that's even worth worrying about.

Beyond that, what partner pairs with Kodama to create even a Yarok, the Desecrated level threat? I can't think of anything.

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Post by Wallycaine » 5 months ago

pokken wrote:
5 months ago
JWK wrote:
5 months ago
I think Kodama would be powerful, but ultimately fine, without partner. Adding in partner bumps up the problem level exponentially, and makes it the obvious exception to Gavin's stated goal of being careful with partner this time around.
Both 'powerful but ultimately fine' and "exponentially" feel like exaggerations. What partners is it going to be a problem with? It doesn't really synergize with any of the existing 2 color partners much at all that I can see.

As a mono green commander, I think you'd need to do some work to convince me that it's even in the top 10.

Just looking at the ability on its face, you have to put in some serious work before Kodama generates more than the 6 initial mana it cost when used fairly. Just replacement-mana-wise, you need to have two 7-drops in your hand and cast one to get a positive return on your investment immediately (that means spending 13 mana to get 14).

It also enables some really medium wombo-combos like Field of the Dead and a bounce land, but when you've set that up with 2 land drops and a Kodama and still have to pass the turn to win, I am not sure that's even worth worrying about.

Beyond that, what partner pairs with Kodama to create even a Yarok, the Desecrated level threat? I can't think of anything.
That echoes my thoughts. Nothing about Kodama seems particularly worse than a strong green/Blue/something commander. Like, Yarok's one, another that comes to mind is Chulane, Teller of Tales. I'm not really sure Kodama's particularly scarier than either of those, even with a partner.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

As I've already stated, I have already seen Kodama in action with a couple of the original two-colored partners (Thrassios and something Dimir, I think, I don't recall because it was never cast). Adding blue into the equation gives Kodama a lot of protection and interactive capacity, plus G+B = incredible card draw, which equates to keeping the hand full, which allows Kodama to function in a more maximized capacity. Even if the other partner is never cast (which is what happened in both the games I was in), the value was pretty incredible. I could see Ishai also being strong, because adding flicker/bounce is another way to benefit a lot from Kodama's ability, plus white offers strong interactive and staxy options to the mix.

The thing with partnering is, you can make a really powerful partner deck without the partners necessarily having a lot of synergy with each other. That is part of what was so wrong with the original 2-color partners. Sometimes they are played just to add more colors to the mix, to add more power to the deck. Kodama becomes a lot more dangerous just adding any partner with U to the mix, reagardless what it does so long as it isn't anti-synergistic in some way (I can't think of any that are). Adding in a cEDH-tier one one like Thrassios is obviously even more dangerous.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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