Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 5 months ago

I mean, Jeweled Lotus is absolutely going straight into my Maelstrom Wanderer deck. I'm going to have to at least evaluate for basically every other deck I've got.

Sweet-Gum Recluse might also make it into Wanderer, acrually.
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Cyberium
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Post by Cyberium » 5 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
5 months ago
Why would they make Jeweled Lotus a card? That looks incredibly unhealthy for the game.

Not game balance related but I like the art on it. Too bad I will be so horribly scarred by the card that I won't be able to appreciate that.
Given 40 starting life, Mana Crypt is probably worse in the long run, but having Lotus in this format makes EDH even more luck driven. It's extremely unfun to see Sol Ring/Crypt and Arcane Signet on turn 1, why should there be even bigger turn 1 play?

Not to mention, They ban/restrict colorless ramping like Lotus because it makes blue/black quicker than their color pie allowed, why print it in EDH where most players are casual, where Blue is already dominating?

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

Lotus as I see it is a bad card on two levels. In the 10% or so of games where it is in hand in the first 1-3 turns in decks where it can do something, it is going to lead to some really fast and one-sided games unless an opponent is lucky enough to have the right removal in those first couple turns. I am not looking forward to T1 K'rrik, T2 Skittles, T3 Kodama or Korvold or Chulane, etc. I think planeswalker commanders are going to be particularly problematic as they are harder to interact with in early turns, as people often don't have creatures for a couple turns and there are fewer good answers to walkers that are also cheap to cast. On the other side of the coin, the new lotus isn't a good card at all unless you draw it in those first couple turns. So, at least as I see it, that's a design fail on both ends.

In other news, I played in a four-person game today in which one player was running Kodama partnered with Thrasios. Kodama is just as overpowered and miserable to play against as I thought it would be, and with Thrasios providing access to counterspells, the game pretty quickly degenerated into the Kodama player going solitaire until the other two players got bored and scooped. I hung around mostly to see how crazy it got. Kodama is a crazy good value machine, and combined with any degree of protection and card draw, it gets out of control pretty quickly. I don't think any of the other Commander Legends partner commanders spoiled so far even approaches brokenness, but Kodama is on par with the worst of the more powerful of the two-color partners, and I expect he will be a huge pain at a lot of tables. I don't know if a CMC 6 creature can have impact at the cEDH level, but they can handle the most problematic of cards. For the rest of us, it is gonna be a pain. And remember, it also slots great into Omn4th as a huge value engine, enabling even more landfall.
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Post by mASTERsELF » 5 months ago

My Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck would love Jeweled Lotus.

Turn 1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls and immediately replace with another card.

:pokerface: 8-D :pokerface:

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

Lotus is the latest symptom of a problem I see in WotC's view of commander and how they often fail to grasp what makes it good on a basic level. Saw it back in 2011 when they first made the precons. They're completely willing to print stupid broken things in the format because it's not a "real" format. To me, Command Tower was the first wakeup call. It's simply perfect mana fixing for no cost...so long as you're playing commander. Now we've got %$#%$#% black lotus (obviously with a relevant caveat)...so long as you're playing commander. Because balance doesn't matter if it's just caaaasual.

I've been pleased with the set up until now, but this really reads as blatant attempt to push boxes to gambling addicts. It's not an auto-include, but it is probably correct to run in the majority of ALL decks. Looking at my three permanent decks, it's a snap include in Kaervek and Zirilan (garbage in Phelddagrif because phelddagrif is the anti-meta, breaker of chains etc). And my current temp deck, Akiri, runs it in a nanosecond. If that's even close to average, that's a staggering amount of demand. And it's a %$#% mythic.

Get %$#% wotc.

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Post by Wallycaine » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
Lotus is the latest symptom of a problem I see in WotC's view of commander and how they often fail to grasp what makes it good on a basic level. Saw it back in 2011 when they first made the precons. They're completely willing to print stupid broken things in the format because it's not a "real" format. To me, Command Tower was the first wakeup call. It's simply perfect mana fixing for no cost...so long as you're playing commander. Now we've got %$#%$#% black lotus (obviously with a relevant caveat)...so long as you're playing commander. Because balance doesn't matter if it's just caaaasual.

I've been pleased with the set up until now, but this really reads as blatant attempt to push boxes to gambling addicts. It's not an auto-include, but it is probably correct to run in the majority of ALL decks. Looking at my three permanent decks, it's a snap include in Kaervek and Zirilan (garbage in Phelddagrif because phelddagrif is the anti-meta, breaker of chains etc). And my current temp deck, Akiri, runs it in a nanosecond. If that's even close to average, that's a staggering amount of demand. And it's a %$#% mythic.

Get %$#% wotc.
I'm super skeptical a mono red and Red/Black deck are actually looking for this effect. Like, if you wanted to run this... why isn't Kaervek already running Dark Ritual? It gives you 2/3rds of the effect with *none* of the restrictions. Why isn't Zirilan running Seething Song? That'll still help you ramp out your general... But maybe, just maybe, that effect isn't worth spending a card on in decks that are relatively short on card advantage. Sure, there's a difference between 2 net mana and 3... but there's also a difference between "Can spend on anything" and "can only spend on your commander".

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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
5 months ago
I'm super skeptical a mono red and Red/Black deck are actually looking for this effect. Like, if you wanted to run this... why isn't Kaervek already running Dark Ritual? It gives you 2/3rds of the effect with *none* of the restrictions. Why isn't Zirilan running Seething Song? That'll still help you ramp out your general... But maybe, just maybe, that effect isn't worth spending a card on in decks that are relatively short on card advantage. Sure, there's a difference between 2 net mana and 3... but there's also a difference between "Can spend on anything" and "can only spend on your commander".
The difference between 2 and 3 mana is enormous, usually an entire turn. And by own nature I don't tend to like one-turn mana ramp even when I probably ought to be running it - it's possible, even probable, that I should be running those cards in those decks. The CA is usually irrelevant for both of those decks, it's mostly that I'm paranoid that I'll get set back too hard if my commander is removed.

That said, TBH the actual effectiveness of the card is *mostly* irrelevant. If this was a card (somehow) printed twenty-plus years ago and was an auto-include (like, say, sol ring) then it's annoying but it's not really wotc's fault. Whether this card is actually insanely broken or more niche, it's a card that tons of people THINK is an auto-include, and which I can only assume wotc printed in order to move boxes because they care far more about short-term money than the long-term health of the format. And that's the main problem, not the cards themselves (as it was TWD btw).

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Post by Kelzam » 5 months ago

I like how in the most social format of Magic every discussion or argument about the power level of certain cards seems to be devoid of the player consequences and pressure from three or four other players once you've blown your load on a play early on with supposedly broken cards like everyone is just going to sit happy and nod and not have anything to do or say about it or that Spike play isn't going to make that player the immediate archenemy.
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Post by Wallycaine » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
5 months ago
I'm super skeptical a mono red and Red/Black deck are actually looking for this effect. Like, if you wanted to run this... why isn't Kaervek already running Dark Ritual? It gives you 2/3rds of the effect with *none* of the restrictions. Why isn't Zirilan running Seething Song? That'll still help you ramp out your general... But maybe, just maybe, that effect isn't worth spending a card on in decks that are relatively short on card advantage. Sure, there's a difference between 2 net mana and 3... but there's also a difference between "Can spend on anything" and "can only spend on your commander".
The difference between 2 and 3 mana is enormous, usually an entire turn. And by own nature I don't tend to like one-turn mana ramp even when I probably ought to be running it - it's possible, even probable, that I should be running those cards in those decks. The CA is usually irrelevant for both of those decks, it's mostly that I'm paranoid that I'll get set back too hard if my commander is removed.

That said, TBH the actual effectiveness of the card is *mostly* irrelevant. If this was a card (somehow) printed twenty-plus years ago and was an auto-include (like, say, sol ring) then it's annoying but it's not really wotc's fault. Whether this card is actually insanely broken or more niche, it's a card that tons of people THINK is an auto-include, and which I can only assume wotc printed in order to move boxes because they care far more about short-term money than the long-term health of the format. And that's the main problem, not the cards themselves (as it was TWD btw).
I mean, it's pretty hard to argue against a point that morphs that rapidly. So the problem is that it's an autoinclude in the majority of EDH decks... except even if it isn't, it's still a problem because... people think it should be? Despite the fact that we've had a toooooon of cards come out that large swaths of people claimed were problematic auto includes, and then they tested them, and it turned out they weren't? Where are all the Drannith Magistrate threads now? That's certainly a card people THOUGHT was going to be an auto include. And yet, here we are 6 months later and it's not even breaking 4% of decklists.

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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
5 months ago
I mean, it's pretty hard to argue against a point that morphs that rapidly. So the problem is that it's an autoinclude in the majority of EDH decks... except even if it isn't, it's still a problem because... people think it should be? Despite the fact that we've had a toooooon of cards come out that large swaths of people claimed were problematic auto includes, and then they tested them, and it turned out they weren't? Where are all the Drannith Magistrate threads now? That's certainly a card people THOUGHT was going to be an auto include. And yet, here we are 6 months later and it's not even breaking 4% of decklists.
I do think it'll make the majority of decks better, yes. That said, I'm clarifying and evolving my position as I think about it more. I had just looked at the card 2 minutes before I made my first post.

Of course people freak out about tons of cards and usually they're wrong, but that person is rarely me (I have certainly never worried about magistrate). And FWIW I don't think this card is utterly busted. It's certainly much worse than sol ring or mana crypt (most of the time). But I do think it's good enough to make most decks better, and it's certainly not trying to hide it. It's deliberately aping the most powerful card in the game to convince people to play it. This card is closer in annoyance to something like Arcane Signet, which was hard to get and made most decks better. That card is at 24% right now and likely climbing (and that's ALL decks, not white decks). But that card was (eventually) printed into a precon that alleviated the demand - before that, the lack of supply was making the price fairly ludicrous. And while it's certainly a very useful card, it's way more replaceable than this is, being only slightly better than a signet or talisman most of the time.

This situation is way worse - it's a mythic in a supplementary set. A set that probably won't be opened by many drafters, nor standard players, nor probably anyone except commander players and stores - and most (smart) commander players don't just run around cracking packs. I think the price is likely to get very very high. That, to me, is going to be the canary in the coalmine, not the % on EDHrec. WotC creating another pay-to-win element that hurts the integrity of game (or at least a perceived pay-to-win element - there will certainly be games that become non-games thanks to this card) in order to milk us for money. Yes, reserved list cards do this already - but WotC didn't engineer that on purpose.

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Post by Cyberium » 5 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
5 months ago
Jeweled Lotus reminds me of my belief that even the real Black Lotus is fine for casual EDH if used responsibly.

If you're running a commander like Eron the Relentless in a theme deck, by all means play both of those Lotuses & Mox Ruby. No problem. If you beat me by cracking Black Lotus to regenerate Eron, you've made my week.
This is an era where people believe they need Reserve List cards just to function in EDH, so we can safely assume that most people aren't trying to play the game for fun and/or "responsibly". They just want the thrill of beat down.

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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 5 months ago

Kelzam wrote:
5 months ago
I like how in the most social format of Magic every discussion or argument about the power level of certain cards seems to be devoid of the player consequences and pressure from three or four other players once you've blown your load on a play early on with supposedly broken cards like everyone is just going to sit happy and nod and not have anything to do or say about it or that Spike play isn't going to make that player the immediate archenemy.
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Post by materpillar » 5 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
5 months ago
Lotus is the latest symptom of a problem I see in WotC's view of commander and how they often fail to grasp what makes it good on a basic level. Saw it back in 2011 when they first made the precons. They're completely willing to print stupid broken things in the format because it's not a "real" format. To me, Command Tower was the first wakeup call. It's simply perfect mana fixing for no cost...so long as you're playing commander. Now we've got %$#%$#% black lotus (obviously with a relevant caveat)...so long as you're playing commander. Because balance doesn't matter if it's just caaaasual.
Just to be nitpicky, I think Command Tower was a net boon for the format. Losing games to bad mana and winning because your opponents have bad mana is terribly unsatsifying. Having an extremely budget friendly land in Command Tower noticeably reduces the barrier for entry into multicolor decks. It minimizes the advantage of the haves vs have nots as a perfect mana base is massively more expensive and can have a huge impact on deck efficiency. In fact, I just looked back at the original commander 2011 legendary creatures. The only one I immensely dislike playing against is Animar, Soul of Elements and that's only because he's so combo-y with two random protections slapped on him. I suppose Edric, Spymaster of Trest and Ghave, Guru of Spores might also be negative for the format but I haven't personally played against them a whole lot. I had lots of fun with Mana-Charged Dragon and the Vow of Duty cycle is pretty neat if bad. It also brought us Chaos Warp which is fantasticly good for the format.

I remember Commander 2013 being when Wizards started into less interactive design space with Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, and Nekusar, the Mindrazer.

I just glanced through most of the commander products. Seems like I enjoyed commander best around 2013, right before all the obnoxious theros gods got released.
Kelzam wrote:
5 months ago
I like how in the most social format of Magic every discussion or argument about the power level of certain cards seems to be devoid of the player consequences and pressure from three or four other players once you've blown your load on a play early on with supposedly broken cards like everyone is just going to sit happy and nod and not have anything to do or say about it or that Spike play isn't going to make that player the immediate archenemy.
The problem is that this format's powerlevel has been steadily creeping up and as the powerlevel creeps up politics tend to matter less and less. If every threat is almost game endingly powerful by itself, there isn't a need for political bargains or threat analysis. It's just four people asking "Do you have the answer?" until no one does. Becoming the archenemy doesn't matter if everyone else is dead. Cards like Jeweled Lotus enable more opening hands where you just "oops I won." Sure, the situation isn't quite as extreme as I've painted it here but Jeweled Lotus and Kodama of the East Tree are just the latest releases that push the format in that direction. The more cards that they release like this the harder it is to find games that aren't extremely powercreeped.

The most noticeable example of this for me is how much I care about turn order now. I used to basically ignore it as a minor advantage/disadvantage. I've lost a noticeable amount of games recently explicitly because I was the last player (Spelltable's randomizer hates me) and had one less untap step than my opponents.

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Post by NZB2323 » 5 months ago

I'm kind of in the middle. I've always hated mythic rares, and I worry this card could be too expense and lead to some dumb blowout wins.

On the other hand, if someone uses this to play their commander turn 1, and then their commander gets countered or removed, they've been set back. However, if they have a Flawless Maneuver, Deflecting Swat, or Fierce Guardianship, or any of the other free counterspells in hand, they can protect their commander, so it's really good with Narset, Enlightened Master but they're not playing Narset turn 1 anyways unless they also have a Mana Crypt or something. Also, a Narset deck probably doesn't want to run too many counterspells because they can fizz out with her ability.

What I do like about this card is it helps expensive mono white, mono red, and Boros decks ramp, and is bad with Tymna the Weaver/Thrasios, Triton Hero and Animar, Soul of Elements.

Here's the way I see it for my decks:

Niv-Mizzet, Parun - definitely running the card. Triple red can be difficult for the deck, I want to combo with Niv ASAP, and I have free counterspells to protect him.

Morophon, the Boundless - definitely running the card, I want Morophon on the field ASAP and I have free counterspells, flawless maneuver, and Deflecting Swat to protect him.

Captain Sisay - definitely running the card. Turn 1 I can cast Sisay and then turn 2 search for Gaea's Cradle, Flagstones of Trokair, which works well with Harrow or Springbloom Druid, or Mox Amber.

Marrow-Gnawer - not sure if I should run it. I'm not running Dark Ritual, and this deck really just wants to play a bunch of Rat Colony. A turn 2 Marrow Gnawer doesn't really seem that great.

Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender - not sure if this deck should run it. It's a cleric tribal deck with no infinite combos, and getting out Ravos super early with no graveyard doesn't really help me. I guess he can fly and get in damage so I can draw with Tymna, and the deck always has plenty of card advantage and not enough mana.

Edgar Markov - not running the card because I don't care to cast Edgar and have him leave the command zone.

Kaalia of the Vast - not running the card because she cost 1RWB so it can only pay for 2 mana for her. Plus it would be a bad top deck if Kaalia is on the battlefield and I need to top deck a fatty.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest - not running the card because I only run commons with him.

What do you guys think? Should I run the card in my cleric tribal and rat tribal decks?
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

Kelzam wrote:
5 months ago
I like how in the most social format of Magic every discussion or argument about the power level of certain cards seems to be devoid of the player consequences and pressure from three or four other players once you've blown your load on a play early on with supposedly broken cards like everyone is just going to sit happy and nod and not have anything to do or say about it or that Spike play isn't going to make that player the immediate archenemy.
"it's not broken because the other players can gang up against the archenemy" is a terrible way to balance cards and formats, it's below amateur level of game designing.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 5 months ago

Cyberium wrote:
5 months ago
This is an era where people believe they need Reserve List cards just to function in EDH, so we can safely assume that most people aren't trying to play the game for fun and/or "responsibly". They just want the thrill of beat down.
I saw a mix back when I was playing in person before the pandemic. Plenty of people have decks they intentionally power down. Like Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus will likely get a house ban at the lower power levels on the PlayEDH Discord. People will recognize it as an expensive card that leads to quick wins.

The trick is balancing things within a playgroup. I saw the scene at my LGS gradually become more & more competitive over the last five years. Theme decks aren't much fun to play against "casual" decks that still often combo out on turn 3-5.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

Kelzam wrote:
5 months ago
I like how in the most social format of Magic every discussion or argument about the power level of certain cards seems to be devoid of the player consequences and pressure from three or four other players once you've blown your load on a play early on with supposedly broken cards like everyone is just going to sit happy and nod and not have anything to do or say about it or that Spike play isn't going to make that player the immediate archenemy.
Unfortunately, in the age of COVID-19, most magic being played is being played via webcam, often against random opponents. Under those conditions, social pressures that are a component in consistent play groups don't really exist. Also, with some really broken generals, I don't know that being the archenemy will really matter if the general hits the table on turn 1-2. It will just come down to whether someone pulled or draws into an answer in the first 1-3 turns. If so, then the person who Lotused out K'rrik or Urza or whomever gets set back some, but a good chunk of the time, having the Lotus that early will just seal a game so quickly that it was hardly worth the rest of the players shuffling up for the game.

That sort of thing happens a lot in the high-end competitive formats, and that's a lot of why I play Commander and not those other formats. The idea of that sort of thing leaking into this format does not thrill me at all.
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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

My obligatory "ban fast mana and tutors" post, which would negate the two biggest cards we've discussed in this set

(I just want a slower, less consistent format.)
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Post by nobody » 5 months ago

hot take, but I don't think jeweled lotus is better then dark ritual, since it's for commander's only, and that's a card that I don't play in any of my edh decks!

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

Serenade wrote:
5 months ago
My obligatory "ban fast mana and tutors" post, which would negate the two biggest cards we've discussed in this set
Eh, you are not wrong at all.

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Post by marioguy3 » 5 months ago

Jewled Lotus doesn't "have" to be played in super competitive decks. Even though I think it can be a dangerous card, I also recognize that it can help churn out turn one (mono-blue) Braids or Parley Selvala for interesting, divergent commanders that play some level of politics.
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Post by Guardman » 5 months ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-10-30

Archelos, Lagoon Mystic

So they basically created a commander that is half Amulet of Vigor and half... I'm not really sure. There are plenty of cards that cause things to enter the battlefield tapped. But I can't think of anything off the top of my head that causes everything.

Either way, I think he is a cool and unique commander. And I love his lore. My only concern is that he basically causes Amulet Titan to become an EDH deck.

Also I have a feeling the rabbitfolk mentioned in Archelos' lore is the "Legendary Creature – Rabbit Wizard" from Maro's teasers.

Finally, what really excites me about this card is that it implies that their is an anthropomorphic animal plane. I hope we get to see it.

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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Archelos, Lagoon Mystic!

Cycling lands? Untapped!
Lazy zombie tokens? Untapped!
Worn Powerstone? Untapped!

I'm tired and unimaginative today, but I'm sure it'll be nuts. Good flavor text, too.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 5 months ago

Guardman wrote:
5 months ago
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-10-30

Archelos, Lagoon Mystic

So they basically created a commander that is half Amulet of Vigor and half... I'm not really sure. There are plenty of cards that cause things to enter the battlefield tapped. But I can't think of anything off the top of my head that causes everything.

Either way, I think he is a cool and unique commander. And I love his lore. My only concern is that he basically causes Amulet Titan to become an EDH deck.

Also I have a feeling the rabbitfolk mentioned in Archelos' lore is the "Legendary Creature – Rabbit Wizard" from Maro's teasers.

Finally, what really excites me about this card is that it implies that their is an anthropomorphic animal plane. I hope we get to see it.

Kismet / Frozen Aether are probably the closest examples. The effects generally fall into what is known as Stasis (its both a card and a type of deck). You usually pair tap down new stuff with refusal to untap currently tapped things such as Winter Orb / Static Orb / Hokori, Dust Drinker / Tangle Wire. Its usually somewhat strongly frowned on in metas that are not playing more competitive combo type metas.
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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

Archelos is actually a fairly cool design, just unfortunate that the only real fun decks to build with it are not going to make you any friends :)

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