Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 5 months ago

Why would they make Jeweled Lotus a card? That looks incredibly unhealthy for the game.

Not game balance related but I like the art on it. Too bad I will be so horribly scarred by the card that I won't be able to appreciate that.
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Post by Toshi » 5 months ago

Turn 1 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth who then pays whatever combo with life is completely safe, fun and not vomit inducing at all, nope.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

Yeah, Jeweled Lotus is absolutely not what this format needs. Huge mistake, WotC. Very disappointed.

Yes, I get that it doesn't benefit some of the most broken Commanders as much. Like Atraxa, for example. But it sure helps a lot of them. K'rrik, as noted above. Turn 2 Chulane, anyone? How fast do you wanna see Kenrith or Najeela hit the board? Even some that aren't a problem, just powerful, suddenly become super-fast threats. Anyone think a turn 2 Skithiryx might not be what the format needs?
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

WotC: "We're rigorously testing the format and communicating with the Rules Committee to make sure nothing breaks the format."
Also WotC: Jeweled Lotus
(I need to hunt down the Black Lotus discussion thread, because I vaguely recall a hypothetical commander-only Lotus being discussed there)

On the plus side, Scroll Rack and Arcane Signet reprints.

Colfenor, the Last Yew is a sweet Scrap Trawler variant. With it and Orah, Skyclave Hierophant (and probably another I missed), I guess this is the most recent style of card they're snowcloning after Ob Nixilis Reignited (-> Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and others) and Panharmonicon (-> Teysa Karlov and others). Has some interesting applications with 0 mana creatures + anthems + sacrifice outlets, but generating a bunch of death triggers / sacrifice fodder isn't particularly new. That said, triggering off tokens and being based off toughness opens up some interesting possibilities. Or you can just recur Eternal Witness over and over, I guess.

Slash the Ranks is sweet. White board wipes are a pretty competitive slot, especially at 5 mana, but also killing (most) planeswalkers is a nice perk, as is not killing your own commander. I don't know if it makes my own decks, but certainly in consideration - I suspect Brago wants it, but the others probably pass.

Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith is hilarious.

Wheel of Misfortune is interesting. Goblin Game meets Wheel of Fortune? It's close enough to Wheel to be worth testing as a budget-ish replacement, at least.

Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh is also hilarious. Again, the question comes up: how valuable is it to be a cheap commander with partner? You don't even need to run red mana for it, which opens up some interesting jank options.

Jeska's Will is another potentially broken effect. I'd like to give it a shot in my spellslinger decks - Act on Impulse isn't great by itself, but adding Inner Fire / bonus as an option is very interesting, even if it's based off an opponent.

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Post by tstorm823 » 5 months ago

Here's the thing: I don't think Jeweled Lotus is actually an exceptionally game winning card. It's a terrible design, because when it does game winning things, it will do them in the least interesting ways. Like, I'm really not worried about whether this card will be fair, I just know it won't be fun,
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Post by WizardMN » 5 months ago

After a bit of thought, I am sorting of cooling to the Lotus. It is a better Dark Ritual obviously but being limited to functioning with 1 or 2 cards (depending on if playing with Partners) just seems bad. Even with those cards always being accessible.

My most hopeful outing for the card is probably in Sygg even though I lose 1 mana in the deal since I can still use my land drop and a Mox to cast a 2 drop on turn 1 with Sygg. But I am actually thinking I leave it out of Gisela for example. I am sort of on the fence with Xenagos but that is because I tend to not run rocks in my green decks anyway and it is, overall, worse than Sol Ring due to the "one and done" nature of it.

Granted, this might come from the mindset of wanting a deck that works as a cohesive unit rather than trying to spit out the commander and trying to go to town with it. Ephara likes it, Xenagos would like it, but Karador doesn't and Queen Marchesa doesn't seem that great for it either.

Being a Lotus is great; potentially speeding up the format is less great but the restriction might be too high in certain decks.

I am sure it will be a staple in every monocolored deck though. And, perhaps that is a move in the right direction? I can't say it is a good thing because 4 mana on turn 1 (possibly; I mean, we still need to draw it) is pretty damn good especially if that gets the commander down right away.

I don't doubt it will be a chase mythic, and putting it at mythic is a giant middle finger from WotC , but I am not sure I throw it into every deck I own. Not by a long shot.

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Post by darrenhabib » 5 months ago

THE PHILOSOPHY OF COMMANDER
• Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic.

Well we can add Jeweled Lotus to the number of ways to have oppressive starts and cards that you have to include in every deck to feel competitive.
Jeweled Lotus I'd like you to meet Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.

Now I just have to find a slot in every single commander deck I've ever made. I guess that'll keep me busy.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

Honestly Jeweled lotus is really a feel bad card. It can either end up being incredibly broken, or letting you "waste" your general after a removal and having to wait too much to recast it. Really a bad card. The set was going so well!

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Post by Lifeless » 5 months ago

My group is going to love seeing turn 2 Locust God /s. At first glance Jeweled Lotus seems really toxic, I hope I'm overreacting.

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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

I really do like how Jeweled Lotus encourages >4 cmc 2 color and >5 cmc 3 color decks. That's a pretty neglected group. It's really poor for 4 color decks and really poor for most partner pairs as well. Lots of good stuff about that design.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 5 months ago

I think people are overreacting. I can't blame them, my jaw dropped upon sighting it too, but it wore off quick. A lot of the knee-jerk reaction likely stems from the status symbol of the source material. It feels that we've been moving towards lower variance, consistency-focused builds as a format. This is a very high variance card - either you blast out of the gate, or this thing rots in hand and does little for you. I can see it finding a home in some mid-to-high-cost commander builds, particularly ones that are very dependent on their head honchos to do the thing. But it's not going to be a mindless format staple. Dark Ritual has a 12% include rate, and this might technically give you more mana but does so in a lot narrower a fashion.
 
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

It is definitely not an autoinclude by any stretch.

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Post by toctheyounger » 5 months ago

Jeweled Lotus is good, but not as obscene as the hype would have you believe. Can only spend on commander. Only one color. That limits it's reach fairly significantly, and makes it somewhat of a 'make good things better' card if anything. Does it help with commander tax? Sure, but any rock will do that.

Honestly, the only popular commander I can, off the top of my head, see it as a stone-cold staple for is Muldrotha, the Gravetide (hooray, I guess... :\ ), and that's really only because it costs so much to cast. Maybe stuff like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth too, but unless you've got a way to reuse it it seems like potentially a wasted space. Maaaaaybe Glissa, the Traitor would like it if you squint hard enough and cast her lots, but it's no Mox Opal.
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Post by Hawk » 5 months ago

My initial reaction was rage and panic, but I think Rumpy is right. This card is extremely "swingy". Very few decks run Dark Ritual. This is better than Ritual in many ways, and is a borderline autoinclude in any mono-colored deck with a commander of CMC 3-5. But like ritual, it is a card trading massive tempo and high-variance "magical christmas land" for actual consistency, and that isn't a trade every deck would want to make - if your gameplan isn't hyper-reliant on your Commander it may not be worth the slot. This card also rewards decks that typically struggle in Commander - monocolored decks, and 2 color decks with a 4-5 CMC commander.

Looking at my own decks, it's so stupid-good in Sai and Daretti that I will feel bad not having it - it's pure power for those decks as they are mono-colored decks, with a commander of CMC 3-4, that desperately want their Commander online ASAP, and they even have artifact synergies to boot! It's also very, very good in Heliod and Black Mirri for the same reasons, and is pro-concept enough to be worth considering in Pir // Toothy, Samut, Nath, and even Alela (a rare 3-color inclusion but turn 2 Alela is still really good and also, it is a faerie later in the game). It's actively bad in Phelddagriff, Saskia, and Sygg and pretty marginal everywhere else. So it isn't nearly as essential as Ring + Signet imo - but it still seems unhealthy.

Realistically, it's going to be a 20-40$ card and I'll be lucky to get one so that's a bit salt inducing, but I think this is "dangerous but ultimately safe" for the format. Time will tell.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 5 months ago

It's not going to break the format, it's not really banworthy, it just popped up and said "Hey, you like those games where someone turn 1's a Sol Ring and shoots ahead of the table? Those are now slightly worse and more frequent,"

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Post by Wallycaine » 5 months ago

I think, over time, people are going to end up cutting their Jeweled Lotus's out of a lot of decks. It's a solid card for the specific commanders that like it, but... it's not going to be generically strong. You're trading a card for an early commander, so your commander needs to have an outsized impact once they land to make it worth it. And, at the same time, you need a commander that gets removed enough that it's not a dead card late, or where the impact of getting it early is strong enough to outweigh having a dead topdeck late game. That feels like a range that's a lot narrower than people think initially, and a lot of the commanders that fit into it aren't exactly problems currently (some are, of course).

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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 5 months ago

I'd say arcane signet is more auto-include. Commander games tend to go long term and one shot to speed out a commader isn't that great and likely all most decks will end up doing. Even more so the more colors the deck runs and later the game it becomes.
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Post by toctheyounger » 5 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
5 months ago
It's not going to break the format, it's not really banworthy, it just popped up and said "Hey, you like those games where someone turn 1's a Sol Ring and shoots ahead of the table? Those are now slightly worse and more frequent,"
Mostly this. It's probably going to make 'eggs' shells a bit more gross, but you were already going to have that anyway, it's a matter of scale.

I did realise it'd probably be pretty great for my Bruna build. She gets expensive, and I've got at least a couple ways to recur the Lotus if needed. But I'm not fazed if I don't end up with a copy, ain't no thing.
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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

The first time I drop JL T1 in a Silas Renn, Seeker Adept/Dargo, the Shipwrecker deck will be AWESOME.

(I do think that could be a viable treasure deck.)
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 5 months ago

Jeweled Lotus reminds me of my belief that even the real Black Lotus is fine for casual EDH if used responsibly.

If you're running a commander like Eron the Relentless in a theme deck, by all means play both of those Lotuses & Mox Ruby. No problem. If you beat me by cracking Black Lotus to regenerate Eron, you've made my week.

I hope to someday find a group that thinks the same way (& believes in proxies). Sadly, I suspect this new Lotus will be an issue in many supposedly casual games. Casting a powerful commander three turns early is a huge advantage.

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Post by materpillar » 5 months ago

Huh, my thoughts are that Jeweled Lotus is a very clear litmus test for me of "I doubt I'll enjoy playing against this deck". I don't think it'll break the format at all, but I like slightly lower powered, midrangy slugfests. This card just doesn't have a home in that environment at all. If you're playing this card you're playing it to win the game as fast as possible.

The generals that jumped into my head immediately are Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, Xenagos, God of Revels and Sai, Master Thopterist . None of which I particularly like to play against at all.

I have a very hard time imagining this getting cast and it making for a more interesting game of magic because of it. I see it as either an extremely early turn Sol Ring groan-like play or basically a dead card. I don't hate it as much as Fierce Guardianship though, so that's nice I guess.

The art is delicious though.

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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

From my own perspective, the decks I'd like to give Jeweled Lotus a shot in are Thada, Mizzix, Brago.... in other words, the snowbally ones that really benefit from being played out early. Getting any of them out on turn 1 sounds extremely strong. If it produced more than one color of mana, I'd also consider it for Animar. On the other hand, my decks that require more setup or a mana investment to make the commander tick (Sharuum, Kess, Tasigur) have less interest in it. My main concern is that looking at the broader format, there have been a lot of problematic snowbally commanders printed in the last few years - Golos, Chulane, Korvold, etc - and having those hit the board on turn 2 is something that greatly concerns me.

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Post by Hermes_ » 5 months ago

maybe a slot in Jhoira of the Ghitu
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Post by Dunharrow » 5 months ago

I think Lotus will be similar to Mana Crypt. Everyone ought to play it, but realistically people are not forking over that kind of money for mana acceleration outside of decks with big budgets.

Mana Crypt is better than this. This is good. This is annoying. I don't like the card. I am sure I will play it if I open one. But I doubt I will be buying singles unless it hovers under 40$.

It is explosive, but I can't think of any combos that it can fuel. So in that regard it is basically like a less flexible mana crypt. You have MC on turn one in a casual game you will probably win. Casting your commander 3 turns early probably also means you win... Whatever.

I wish we could ban the five best fast mana cards and the five best tutors. I think it would help Commander so much.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 5 months ago

Jeweled Lotus is an absurd enabler for 1-3 color decks with commanders that cost 4+, but does very little for 4-5 colors and lower cost commanders. It's yet another random chance generator for a deck to pull far ahead on turn 1-2 in the same way as Mana Crypt.

It's not an autoinclude, but it's busted ramp on #3/#4 for some decks after sol ring / crypt. The probability of crazy starts is much higher for the decks that can run it.

Yes, it's probably not ideal for the format.
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