Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 5 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
5 months ago
I meant cunning looked interesting on it's own not as part of a RWU deck, personally i find mill to be a boring wincon
Yea, I was talking about it on its own as well. I considered the mill almost zero benefit so I was really mostly just viewing it as a draw mechanic. Its just mostly not really that useful as a mechanic in my mind for decks that have access to green, blue, or black. There is better draw to be had and defending it is often not worth using the mechanic in those colors in my opinion.
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Post by toctheyounger » 5 months ago

We should probably leave this alone from here, there's plenty of fresh spoilers to discuss. Nonetheless, to clarify:
Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
We were talking about Cultivate there. If you cast Cultivate turn 3 while I'm playing mono-black for example, unless I'm loaded with lands in hand, I'm 100% casting this in response. Otherwise, I'm shooting myself in the foot. I'm not necessarily going to target a turn 6 Solemn Simulacrum or whatever, but if I need lands and you cast something that can fetch them for me, I will use it. I've never seen anyone getting mad for having their Sol Ring stolen or destroyed, or having their Somberwald Sage bolted, you should treat land ramp the same.
Fair point, and I could live with it personally. I think predominantly the issue I have is not so much stealing a land drop, but the ongoing effect it has on the table. Mid game, fine by me. First couple of turns when there's a much lower likelihood of someone having enough resource to answer this, it's at least a semi-choke on the flow of the game. It's no Winter Orb, sure, but games are long enough without the entire table's early ramp going awry. But yeah, I get it, lands are not sacrosanct.
Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
Targeting fetches just because they're fetches seems much more like a jerk move to me. Just because people have pricier cards doesn't mean their deck is better, there's plenty of strong budget options out there. Targeting the rich because they're rich certainly feels more unfair.
If you're running fetches, chances are you're not fetching basics right? At least, on your first time cracking them anyway. If I need to fix colours and I have the opportunity to grab a dual or a shock, or a Dryad Arbor, I'm absolutely better served by doing so than grabbing a basic. So it's not so much being spiteful towards expensive decks and taking advantage of the inference that running fetches makes.
Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
I'm not necessarily slowing down the whole table. I'm mainly slowing down green ramp decks, the others can still play their rocks. And if nobody at the table can deal with a creature, you guys definitely need to run more removal and less land ramp. Also, if I have 3 lands and the Opposition Agent in my starting hand but I don't draw any other land, am I supposed to ruin my own game so as to not slow you down? If you want to goldfish that's fine, but if you play with other people, expect them to try to interact with you.

People keep saying they want answers for ramp decks, and when WotC publishes them, they go up in arms calling people jerk for playing them. This isn't Armageddon, you can still play, you just do it at the same speed than everyone else at the table.
Well, you kind of are slowing down the whole table, but not to a complete crawl. Just slower than they'd like to go, and that's probably fine. I 100% agree with folk not running enough removal btw, you should enter a game prepared to fix your own problems and interact. If you don't pack answers, you have no one else to blame. Sadly, it's the case more often than not in my experience.

For what it's worth I think the bluster from the masses is mostly hyperbole. From what I hear there's a real chance it massively warp Legacy but none of us care overly about that. It's fine by me, I just think it's the sort of card that is going to carry some stigma to it. When you cast it, people are going to expect the worst from you, and you're going to have a hard job convincing them otherwise.
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Post by toctheyounger » 5 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
5 months ago
I am so far not impressed with this set
I generally agree, but being absolutely honest, I'm mostly here for reprints. The line on Wizards' social media is 'amazing reprints' and so far, Vampiric Tutor is great, as is Three Visits but I want more before I shell out for sealed product. The original partners are mostly pieces I didn't really expect or want to see again, so I hope they're just box toppers or whatever (I've only seen etched versions).

All this being said, my lineup of builds is currently very much fixed, so seeing the sheer breadth of so many legends does very little to tempt me into more brews.
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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

This guy is going to fall by the wayside, as he should because he is so weird, but Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist is a neat flavorful card to see. This poor guy has been warning us about a salamander-person uprising since 2011 (reminding us three years later), but luckily he is quite prepared and will protect us from them.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 5 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
5 months ago
Hummm looking at the spoilers today and I realize, I am so far not impressed with this set.
Honestly, i am.
It's full of good cards, yet almost no OP must have cards. Zendikar Rising had worse ones.
This is especially good considering they are putting in powerful mechanics like monarch and cascade
Weird strategies get pushed, not only with legendaries: pirates, golgari elf tribal...
The draft chaff is mostly draft chaff, but you can find some little gems

In the end, it's a set that help many suboptimal decks into becoming playable.

Sadly, partners clog up a lot of space, wasting it for boring monocolored legends. Having 40 tricolor legends instead of this partner crap... yikes! That would be the perfect set!

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Post by kirkusjones » 5 months ago

Serenade wrote:
5 months ago
This guy is going to fall by the wayside, as he should because he is so weird, but Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist is a neat flavorful card to see. This poor guy has been warning us about a salamander-person uprising since 2011 (reminding us three years later), but luckily he is quite prepared and will protect us from them.
Building a conspiracy theorist-themed deck might be fun...

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Post by darrenhabib » 5 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
5 months ago
Hummm looking at the spoilers today and I realize, I am so far not impressed with this set. Let me start off with two things before I really get into things here:
I will say that outside of the all the legends themselves the only three cards that really perked my interest so far are Sphinx of the Second Sun, Opposition Agent, Amphin Mutineer.

The thing is that the new print cards haven't been particularly good.
The 9 mana "bombs" have been below average thus far in Mnemonic Deluge, Profane Transfusion. The red and green ones were spoiled earlier and are better than these for sure, but still you have to be playing real battlecruiser commander to pull these off.
The "Wills" so far have below average as well with Szat's Will, Kamahl's Will. The red and blue ones were spoiled and again are better, but still nothing like Yawgmoth's Will :P
"Magus" are always terrible versions of the OG's, so never really super excited to see these.
The cascade cards I can tell are all overcosted for my liking by 2 mana. They've designed them in a way that is supposed to be good at cascading into bigger targets by giving them higher casting costs, but in the end they are just overcosted by a couple of mana for the effects.

I get that power creep needs to be kept in check but I think all these cards could have at least costed one or two mana less.

But let's face it this set is ALL about the legends and I'm like a kid in a candy store with brewing.

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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
The 9 mana "bombs" have been below average thus far in Mnemonic Deluge, Profane Transfusion. The red and green ones were spoiled earlier and are better than these for sure, but still you have to be playing real battlecruiser commander to pull these off.
Yes, the black one is disappointing but the blue one is good, not as good as the green though. And the red is trash, which saddens me since I love random effects.
darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
The "Wills" so far have below average as well with Szat's Will, Kamahl's Will. The red and blue ones were spoiled and again are better, but still nothing like Yawgmoth's Will :P
I feel like Szat's Will has potential, but Kamahl's Will is bad (which is nice, green doesn't need that anyway)
darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
The cascade cards I can tell are all overcosted for my liking by 2 mana. They've designed them in a way that is supposed to be good at cascading into bigger targets by giving them higher casting costs, but in the end they are just overcosted by a couple of mana for the effects.
I get that power creep needs to be kept in check but I think all these cards could have at least costed one or two mana less.
Overcosted by one, maybe, but certainly not two. A counterspell or a naturalize with cascade for 3 would be busted!
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Post by darrenhabib » 5 months ago

Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
The cascade cards I can tell are all overcosted for my liking by 2 mana. They've designed them in a way that is supposed to be good at cascading into bigger targets by giving them higher casting costs, but in the end they are just overcosted by a couple of mana for the effects.
I get that power creep needs to be kept in check but I think all these cards could have at least costed one or two mana less.
Overcosted by one, maybe, but certainly not two. A counterspell or a naturalize with cascade for 3 would be busted!
The thing is that both of those at 3 mana is not making any truly competitive decks. I would play them in some of my more casual or niche decks, but 3 mana is still too expensive for higher tier decks.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 5 months ago

They made a Grey Ogre with Cascade and it broke Legacy for a bit. I'm fine if they don't try to push the envelope with it this time around.

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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
The thing is that both of those at 3 mana is not making any truly competitive decks. I would play them in some of my more casual or niche decks, but 3 mana is still too expensive for higher tier decks.
Bloodbraid Elf and Shardless Agent definitely saw competitive play at some point, and maybe they still are. They might not make huge waves in EDH due to the singleton nature but they might definitely cause problems in Legacy and Vintage.
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Post by darrenhabib » 5 months ago

Dragoon wrote:
5 months ago
darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
The thing is that both of those at 3 mana is not making any truly competitive decks. I would play them in some of my more casual or niche decks, but 3 mana is still too expensive for higher tier decks.
Bloodbraid Elf and Shardless Agent definitely saw competitive play at some point, and maybe they still are. They might not make huge waves in EDH due to the singleton nature but they might definitely cause problems in Legacy and Vintage.
I don't mean to be stubborn or argumentative but I just feel in my bones that none of these would be an issue in the formats that they could be played in which is Commander, Vintage, Legacy.

Shardless Agent hasn't been a thing for years as it has just got pushed out due to cards like Oko, Thief of Crowns and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath.

"Living End" in Modern has never translated to Legacy as it is just deemed too slow and easy to disrupt. However if you had Natural Reclamation and Forceful Denial at 3 mana then you might open up opportunities for it? Still might be too clunky but at least playing reactive game might be feasible.

Anyway I can just see that this set is lost opportunities on what could be more playable cards.
Natural Reclamation and Forceful Denial are not going to be played in any decks other than some super casual decks that have a cascade theme. Which means that they failed in design if they only get put into one type of deck.

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Post by Dunharrow » 5 months ago

It interests me that so many are unimpressed. I am just happy there are no goodstuff commanders so far. I am mostly interested in the draft format but I think for commander players there will be more for us here than commander precons.

I don't love tribal, so elves and pirates are kinda meh for me. That being said, some of the pirates make me want to make a deck since they have great saboteur abilities.

But still these cards all interest me:
Enemy battlebond lands
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools is really powerful looking. Could definitely replace my Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath as commander.
The wills are niche but still will find use in my 20 decks
vamp tutor
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Rebbec, Architect of Ascension looks like a great piece for artifact decks.
Blim, Comedic Genius would be a really fun deck to build. Unfortunately, do not see myself making a third rakdos deck anytime soon.
Opposition Agent is kinda brutal but also I hate how much people tutor and I am happy to see more hate cards outside of white.
Kodama of the East Tree is a fascinating card.
Averna, the Chaos Bloom is going into Maelstrom Wanderer for sure.

Keep in mind that the commons and uncommons will mostly be oriented towards draft and will have little impact on Commander.
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Post by Ginuqu » 5 months ago

We have to examine what "playable" means sometime. lots of these cards have unique abilities, or inviting creature combinations, or meanings in lore. and there's some second string cards which'd augment all kinds of decks, and that has to be somewhat important in a highlander format? The fact that they're not pushed to their minimum possible casting costs honestly strikes me as a good thing. more cards to explore casually without them getting scalped as soon as they slot into a professional deck!
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Post by BeneTleilax » 5 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
Natural Reclamation and Forceful Denial are not going to be played in any decks other than some super casual decks that have a cascade theme. Which means that they failed in design if they only get put into one type of deck.
You and I have completely opposing views on what constitutes good design. I love cards that go in one deck. It's always satisfying to swap out a utility staple with something that fits my theme. On a broader level, to the extent that there is one best-in-slot, then nothing can replace it without being directly stronger. To the extent that there are multiple contenders for that slot, segregated by build, new cards can fill niches and still be played without being directly stronger than any other. Diversification makes games more distinct, but it is also a stabilizing force. Consolidation leads to stagnation or power creep.

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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Man, Zara, Renegade Recruiter would have been my ideal legend years ago. I'm taking a creature out of your hand, getting its ETB effect (likely), throwing it at you, and probably sacrificing it for value if I built my deck correctly. SURE, she does not have haste or built-in protection and costs five mana, but evasion and just having to attack for that effect are nice.

I'll still try her out, but I don't think she will cut it in my group.
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Post by DirkGently » 5 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
5 months ago
You and I have completely opposing views on what constitutes good design. I love cards that go in one deck. It's always satisfying to swap out a utility staple with something that fits my theme. On a broader level, to the extent that there is one best-in-slot, then nothing can replace it without being directly stronger. To the extent that there are multiple contenders for that slot, segregated by build, new cards can fill niches and still be played without being directly stronger than any other. Diversification makes games more distinct, but it is also a stabilizing force. Consolidation leads to stagnation or power creep.
To add to this, I don't really find designs bad unless they make the game worse. Paradox Engine is bad design, imo, because it made games less fun by existing and getting played, and same thing for [email protected]# Ruination (don't @ me). Limited-focused chaff doesn't hurt me whatsoever because it won't make games worse - likely because it won't get played, but if it does, because it's unlikely to make any game less fun. And I definitely wouldn't call any card "bad" just because it isn't useful to me personally. And especially compared to yesteryear, there are very few cards that are useless in all formats. The % of unplayable limited cards in a set is really low, there's usually only a handful of cards you'd never want to play.

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Post by Cyberium » 5 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
5 months ago
It strikes me as a fixed Chulane.
Fixed in terms of power level, but also got way more directions thanks to its ability not requiring to "cast", and Amareth is not limited to creature. Even Growing Ranks's populate let you look at top card for a creature card, and if you play Eggs you'd likely go through several cards down before needing to stop.

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Post by Dragoon » 5 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
Natural Reclamation and Forceful Denial are not going to be played in any decks other than some super casual decks that have a cascade theme. Which means that they failed in design if they only get put into one type of deck.
By that definition, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim or Chulane, Teller of Tales are among the best designs ever made... The cards are common, mainly made for limited and they might see some play at casual tables, that is perfectly fine. If there was 2G Naturalize + cascade or 1UU Counterspell + cascade, those cards will probably become staple ASAP in non cEDH circles, and the last thing I want to see is more homogenisation of the format.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 5 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
5 months ago
Natural Reclamation and Forceful Denial are not going to be played in any decks other than some super casual decks that have a cascade theme. Which means that they failed in design if they only get put into one type of deck.
Probably my favourite aspect of EDH is stuffing a deck full of various jank that synergises with the commander. I live for the Skybinds, the Soltari Foot Soldiers. This sort of high-cost cascade stuff can go live in Averna, the Chaos Bloom and whatnot. The last thing the format needs is braindead autoinclude stuff.
 
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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Love that Belbe, Corrupted Observer is a twisted version of the Eladamri's Vineyard effect.
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Post by Mookie » 5 months ago

Archon of Coronation is sort of cute. A fun rules interaction. I don't think it's actually good, but it's certainly interesting, and has some nice implications with Earthquake effects.

Court of Grace is Bitterblossom in white, which is a thing I've wanted for ages. Not as efficient, but the number of white enchantments with 'upkeep: make a token' is surprisingly low. I'd say it looks a bit too slow at 4 mana, but making a 4/4 angel token and drawing a card immediately off monarch makes it a bit better. I appreciate the whole cycle for making monarch more available, at least.

Court of Ambition is fine. As a punisher effect, I don't expect it to be that strong... but pair it with a discard theme and you have each opponent losing 6 life on your upkeep, which adds up fast. Hmmm...

Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel is somewhat interesting, but, again, looks really slow. I suppose it has some political implications and allows you to flicker stuff (really, really slowly), but... Yeah, I'm not sure what to use it for. Reminds me a bit of Triad of Fates, which were similarly unplayable. I guess we'll have to see exactly how valuable it is to be a 2 mana partner.

Belbe, Corrupted Observer is sweet. Also potentially an absurd amount of mana - getting six mana off a 2-drop is sort of terrifying, although it does require jumping through some hoops. Symmetry is also a thing.

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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

Belbe is phenomenally good. She will produce a lot of mana when paired with things like Zulaport Cutthroat or Syr Konrad, the Grim. I have found Frontier Siege pretty darn strong, and in the right deck she won't have much trouble surpassing Siege. Then on top of that, she incentivizes your opponents to attack each other to get mana. I expect I will slot her into one or two of my decks and probably be pretty happy I did.
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Post by Serenade » 5 months ago

Dargo shenanigans

T1: artifact land, Sol Ring
T2: mountain, Claim the Firstborn, Dargo
T2 (opponent): PTE
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Post by JWK » 5 months ago

The new Simic serpent is boring. Bigger Tatyova + Exploration in one card for +1 mana. It's powerful and dumb and lazy, and it slots into Omn4th, so we will probably be seeing a lot of it. The biggest question is whether it will replace Tatyova as a commander, or end up in the 99 with her. I am betting on the latter.

It's my second least-favorite card of the set so far, after Kodama. Kind of a shame, because the art is outstanding.
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