Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Re: Opposition Agent - as previously mentioned, I do think it is good... but I wouldn't ever expect it to be broken. After the first stolen tutor, it's a fancy Aven Mindcensor - your opponents can easily just not search for things, and there aren't that many ways to force your opponents to search. You can do a troll deck with Maralen of the Mornsong or Hive Mind + Eternal Dominion, but those are already possible, and they would get very old, very fast.

....Opposition Agent + Hive Mind + Demonic Tutor does sound sort of hilarious though.

Off that topic.... Malcolm Keen-Eyed Navigator actually looks pretty potent as a ramp enabler in blue, which otherwise doesn't have that many options in the command zone (coughthadaadelcough). Meanwhile, Breeches, Brazen Plunderer is card advantage in the command zone in red. Lots of crossover in the partners to give colors they don't often have access to.

Averna, Blooming Chaos is still amazing. Have I mentioned yet that cascaaaaade is one of my favorite mechanics?

Forceful Denial and Aurora Phoenix are both sweet.

Demonic Knowledge is a nasty Donate target, and BFFs with Blim, Comedic Genius.

Keskit, the Flesh Sculptor is fine. Lots of card advantage, but also a pretty steep cost. Sacrificing artifacts opens up a lot of build options though.

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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Unofficial Spoiler Discussion
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
I could see myself playing agent along with Sadistic Sacrament to deal with combo pieces.
Pretty sure there's no interaction there, agent only works when they search their library, not you searching their library.
I wasn't thinking interaction i was thinking for what they do, Agent basically hands you the combo piece,while sacrament lets you remove the piece and any back up pieces.
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Post by Dragoon » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Guardman wrote:
1 year ago
As for Opposition Agent itself. It's a cool cards that does a neat thing, but I do wish that it didn't hurt fetches and green ramp so hard. Or at least did it in a way that harmed ramp, but not in such a I gotcha sort of way. Green decks are usually the cheapest and easiest to play when you are first starting out in EDH, so I have a feeling that new players will feel the brunt of the pain from Opposition Agent.
To my mind, the card is sort of an acid test for whether or not you're an asshole. It ought never to stay on the field for long, so if you're stealing someone else's Cultivate you're probably going out of your way to do so, and might just be an asshole. It just feels like the kind of card people will show their true colours with.

For myself, if I pick up a copy I'm gonna be holding it for Tooth and Nail, Mystical Tutor, Finale of Devastation et al. You cannot seriously get mad if I turn the tables on you with these sorts of spells.
Well, I can see myself using this on a Cultivate early game if I don't have more than one land in hand... I don't see how that makes me a jerk. Killing mana dorks and destroying mana rocks is fine, but countering/stealing land ramp is not? I prefer using it on a Cultivate and getting some value immediately rather than keeping it in hand hoping that someone casts something juicy later. Plus slowing down everybody else is more impactful in the early to mid-game. Now using it on a fetch ... yeah, that's getting close to jerky territory, but targeting ramp is fine in my book.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Dragoon wrote:
1 year ago
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Guardman wrote:
1 year ago
As for Opposition Agent itself. It's a cool cards that does a neat thing, but I do wish that it didn't hurt fetches and green ramp so hard. Or at least did it in a way that harmed ramp, but not in such a I gotcha sort of way. Green decks are usually the cheapest and easiest to play when you are first starting out in EDH, so I have a feeling that new players will feel the brunt of the pain from Opposition Agent.
To my mind, the card is sort of an acid test for whether or not you're an asshole. It ought never to stay on the field for long, so if you're stealing someone else's Cultivate you're probably going out of your way to do so, and might just be an asshole. It just feels like the kind of card people will show their true colours with.

For myself, if I pick up a copy I'm gonna be holding it for Tooth and Nail, Mystical Tutor, Finale of Devastation et al. You cannot seriously get mad if I turn the tables on you with these sorts of spells.
Well, I can see myself using this on a Cultivate early game if I don't have more than one land in hand... I don't see how that makes me a jerk. Killing mana dorks and destroying mana rocks is fine, but countering/stealing land ramp is not? I prefer using it on a Cultivate and getting some value immediately rather than keeping it in hand hoping that someone casts something juicy later. Plus slowing down everybody else is more impactful in the early to mid-game. Now using it on a fetch ... yeah, that's getting close to jerky territory, but targeting ramp is fine in my book.
I absolutely see this the opposite way. I'd rather screw a fetch than a Cultivate, if for no other reason than someone running one fetch is likely running others and I'm likely to be levelling the playing field against someone who has better cards than I do. Cultivate you can't say the same with. It could be a more optimal deck than mine but it doesn't go without saying.

The other part of this that ought to be made clear is that you're not just copying their spell and fetching your own lands, you're literally taking lands from another person's deck. To specifically choose to do this over taking their spells seems pretty savage, and I don't know if I'd be cool with it, whereas if someone pipped me at the post and stole my win con all I can say is fair play, it's not like whatever I was going to do was going to favour the table anyway.

I guess to me it's the difference between beating my car in a race to the finish line and taking parts out of it before I get a chance to turn the engine on. I guess that works as an analogy, I don't know anything about cars. I could see it being fine against Omn4th or other lands matter commanders, but in most casual games I'd be looking to take you out of the game as soon as possible if you shank me on ramp. Whether or not thats logical, in the context of a casual game that's what makes sense to me. Anything nearing competitive, well, the gloves are off, that's different.

Also, it's a bit rough to keep a land poor hand and then punish the table for it early game. I don't see how that's optimal or fun for anyone. Maybe you don't have any choices about it, but in most games I play I'd feel pretty crap about doing this. Especially early game, if no one can shift your hatebear, you've slowed the game to a crawl from the get go and that's just rough.
Last edited by toctheyounger 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ZenN » 1 year ago

I'm fully willing to admit that it's not necessarily logical or mature, but I'm definitely going to priority target anybody who uses it on my early game ramp or fetch. At that point my goal post is moved. Winning at that point just means making sure that player doesn't get to play.

In a 1v1 game it would totally make sense. Fantastic play. In a multiplayer game it's a different story.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

People yoink/kill rocks or mana dorks pretty readily. Sometimes bolting the bird is a valid move, even in multiplayer. Yes, you can do it suboptimally just to dick someone over, but you can Thieving Skydiver someone's Signet too. I just fail to see how this is different other than "green ramp is precious and we must protect it". If that ever held water, it stopped around 2019.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
I just fail to see how this is different other than "green ramp is precious and we must protect it". If that ever held water, it stopped around 2019.
I think a bit of context is probably applicable though. Say I'm playing....I dunno, Omnath, Locus of Rage where my lands count for a lot - it's absolutely appropriate to yoink lands from that player. It saves you some grief later on down the track, and you probably haven't nullified the game for that person, right? Like if they're not running Exploration variants I'd be surprised.

If you're yoinking lands from a Solemn Simulacrum in a mono red or mono white deck in a casual game I think you should feel pretty %$#% about it.

Like generally, I agree, the 'lands are sacrosanct' argument only goes so far, especially in modern EDH where there are a raft of landfall/lands matter commanders that abuse that unwritten rule. I just think with this card in particular, you're already going to look bad stopping ramp, so you probably owe the table at least choosing a just target, if not an optimal one. Especially because if you don't and you pick one that feels bad, they are going to come for you. Well, they'll probably come for you anyway, so why would grabbing someone's lands be an optimal use of that effect? If you're going to steal stuff, make it worth the effort.

Yeah, I just think that while this isn't overtly a political card, having it in your deck speaks volumes, and it's up to the player to make the right statement to their meta about what sort of game they want to have. Stealing lands unjustly and still expecting people not to care is, in most metas, a hell of a reach.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
I just fail to see how this is different other than "green ramp is precious and we must protect it". If that ever held water, it stopped around 2019.
I think a bit of context is probably applicable though. Say I'm playing....I dunno, Omnath, Locus of Rage where my lands count for a lot - it's absolutely appropriate to yoink lands from that player. It saves you some grief later on down the track, and you probably haven't nullified the game for that person, right? Like if they're not running Exploration variants I'd be surprised.

If you're yoinking lands from a Solemn Simulacrum in a mono red or mono white deck in a casual game I think you should feel pretty %$#% about it.

Like generally, I agree, the 'lands are sacrosanct' argument only goes so far, especially in modern EDH where there are a raft of landfall/lands matter commanders that abuse that unwritten rule. I just think with this card in particular, you're already going to look bad stopping ramp, so you probably owe the table at least choosing a just target, if not an optimal one. Especially because if you don't and you pick one that feels bad, they are going to come for you. Well, they'll probably come for you anyway, so why would grabbing someone's lands be an optimal use of that effect? If you're going to steal stuff, make it worth the effort.

Yeah, I just think that while this isn't overtly a political card, having it in your deck speaks volumes, and it's up to the player to make the right statement to their meta about what sort of game they want to have. Stealing lands unjustly and still expecting people not to care is, in most metas, a hell of a reach.
Oh yeah, if you're a dick with it you're a dick with it and will rightly be targeted. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Same way Skydiver'ing some poor guy's Boros Signet is a dick move. I've targeted someone for sniping another player's mana before.

I was just saying that going after ramp with this isn't categorically mean (see Omnath), and it is certainly not grounds for a ban. Pretty much any decent answer can be used to be a petty jerk. I don't find it particularly productive to focus so heavily on those niche cases, where we never see anyone do the same for cards like Rec Sage against rocks or any random pingers against dorks.
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Post by Dragoon » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
If you're yoinking lands from a Solemn Simulacrum in a mono red or mono white deck in a casual game I think you should feel pretty %$#% about it.
We were talking about Cultivate there. If you cast Cultivate turn 3 while I'm playing mono-black for example, unless I'm loaded with lands in hand, I'm 100% casting this in response. Otherwise, I'm shooting myself in the foot. I'm not necessarily going to target a turn 6 Solemn Simulacrum or whatever, but if I need lands and you cast something that can fetch them for me, I will use it. I've never seen anyone getting mad for having their Sol Ring stolen or destroyed, or having their Somberwald Sage bolted, you should treat land ramp the same.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
I absolutely see this the opposite way. I'd rather screw a fetch than a Cultivate, if for no other reason than someone running one fetch is likely running others and I'm likely to be levelling the playing field against someone who has better cards than I do. Cultivate you can't say the same with. It could be a more optimal deck than mine but it doesn't go without saying.
Targeting fetches just because they're fetches seems much more like a jerk move to me. Just because people have pricier cards doesn't mean their deck is better, there's plenty of strong budget options out there. Targeting the rich because they're rich certainly feels more unfair.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
The other part of this that ought to be made clear is that you're not just copying their spell and fetching your own lands, you're literally taking lands from another person's deck. To specifically choose to do this over taking their spells seems pretty savage, and I don't know if I'd be cool with it, whereas if someone pipped me at the post and stole my win con all I can say is fair play, it's not like whatever I was going to do was going to favour the table anyway.
It's not like I'm casting Bribery or Acquire and get a freebie. I still have to cast the spell, which might not be the best for me. Also, your biggest wincons might work with your deck and not mine. Taking lands can definitely be the optimal play depending on the situation.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Also, it's a bit rough to keep a land poor hand and then punish the table for it early game. I don't see how that's optimal or fun for anyone. Maybe you don't have any choices about it, but in most games I play I'd feel pretty crap about doing this. Especially early game, if no one can shift your hatebear, you've slowed the game to a crawl from the get go and that's just rough.
I'm not necessarily slowing down the whole table. I'm mainly slowing down green ramp decks, the others can still play their rocks. And if nobody at the table can deal with a creature, you guys definitely need to run more removal and less land ramp. Also, if I have 3 lands and the Opposition Agent in my starting hand but I don't draw any other land, am I supposed to ruin my own game so as to not slow you down? If you want to goldfish that's fine, but if you play with other people, expect them to try to interact with you.

People keep saying they want answers for ramp decks, and when WotC publishes them, they go up in arms calling people jerk for playing them. This isn't Armageddon, you can still play, you just do it at the same speed than everyone else at the table.
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Post by Ginuqu » 1 year ago

"Whenever a commander you control" makes my eyes glaze over and be unable to read the rest of the card. this set's apparently an affront to my sensibilities!

Numa's cute, though. Would like to make a fun deck with 3x Numa, 4x Wildborn Preserver, 4x Swarm Shambler etc. to show off all my strange counters! but seeing as all casual support goes directly into Commander, who cares if that's what I want to do.
sorta mad at magic right now

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Post by Dragoon » 1 year ago

Ginuqu wrote:
1 year ago
"Whenever a commander you control" makes my eyes glaze over and be unable to read the rest of the card. this set's apparently an affront to my sensibilities!

Numa's cute, though. Would like to make a fun deck with 3x Numa, 4x Wildborn Preserver, 4x Swarm Shambler etc. to show off all my strange counters! but seeing as all casual support goes directly into Commander, who cares if that's what I want to do.
To be fair, this is a commander-centric product, so it makes sense. Keep your hopes up though, I'm pretty sure Conspiracy 3 and Battlebond 2 will show up at some point!
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

I like when they put a commander and a staple for that commander next to each other (Yurlok and Horizon Stone)

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
I like when they put a commander and a staple for that commander next to each other (Yurlok and Horizon Stone)
I was going to say that Horizon Stone doesn't seem good enough even there, but then I remembered I'm already planning a Yurlok of the Rose Burn deck with a Fireball sub-theme.
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Post by ZenN » 1 year ago

Amareth, the Lustrous is sweet. It doesn't say nonland, or nontoken. There are shenanigans to be had.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

It strikes me as a fixed Chulane.
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Post by JWK » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
It strikes me as a fixed Chulane.
It will probably be played in Chulane decks, allowing for new degrees of brokenness.

Far less awful, this could be excellent in Roon, particularly if you have some topdeck manipulation.
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Post by Guardman » 1 year ago

Court of Cunning is interesting. It looks like a great value card in any blue self-mill deck, while being even better in Bruvac the Grandiloquent.

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Post by JWK » 1 year ago

Guardman wrote:
1 year ago
Court of Cunning is interesting. It looks like a great value card in any blue self-mill deck, while being even better in Bruvac the Grandiloquent.
I can see a lot of Sultai value decks running this. Not that they exactly need more toys, but whatever.

Am I alone in finding Sultai even more annoying than Simic? Most Sultai commanders printed during and since Khans block have just been huge goodstuff value machines, and many of them play largely the same suite of cards regardless of commander.
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Post by JWK » 1 year ago

https://twitter.com/TheHermitDruid/stat ... 79/photo/1

This little lizard is my new favorite card for the set. I dunno if I will run him as a partner (maybe, maybe not), but he is going to be slotted into the 99 of several decks. Zurgo, Saskia, Ruhan, Alesha... they will all love their new lizard pet!
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Hummm looking at the spoilers today and I realize, I am so far not impressed with this set. Let me start off with two things before I really get into things here:
  • The set is not fully spoiled so my comments are on the partial spoils we have seen so far.
  • My statement comes from the point of looking at cards as the 99. So far, I am not impressed with any of the legends but that isn't to say the legends are bad as commanders but none of them make me want to build them.
  • I think its healthy to not force power creep into every product so I am ok with everything not feeling like just must have cards in every deck possible. I would much rather see an appropriate power level set than something that just spins up more power creep.
I am so far, not really impressed by this set. Its appeal is supposed to be commander and limited. The legends are fine, but I am really not seeing much I plan to put into the 99 of any of my decks nor have I seen a commander I plan to do anything with. Given that legends are so much of the push of this product its weird to look at all of the ones spoiled so far and just see absolutely nothing that interests me.

Given how many new cards we were going to be getting I had been contemplating the idea of getting a few boxes of this product but as I see things get spoiled, I have yet to see anything that makes me interested in this product. More over, the cards I have seen in this set actually feel lower powered than the cards currently getting printed into standard set releases which has me scratching my head given the point of a product like this is to bypass standard, modern, and pioneer so that new broken things don't disrupt other formats but I feel like I am seeing downpowerd cards across the board.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

JWK wrote:
1 year ago
https://twitter.com/TheHermitDruid/stat ... 79/photo/1

This little lizard is my new favorite card for the set. I dunno if I will run him as a partner (maybe, maybe not), but he is going to be slotted into the 99 of several decks. Zurgo, Saskia, Ruhan, Alesha... they will all love their new lizard pet!
My Akiri, Line-Slinger voltron wants to be rebuilt now....

EDIT: also Court of Cunning looks interesting...but boring
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
JWK wrote:
1 year ago
https://twitter.com/TheHermitDruid/stat ... 79/photo/1

This little lizard is my new favorite card for the set. I dunno if I will run him as a partner (maybe, maybe not), but he is going to be slotted into the 99 of several decks. Zurgo, Saskia, Ruhan, Alesha... they will all love their new lizard pet!
My Akiri, Line-Slinger voltron wants to be rebuilt now....

EDIT: also Court of Cunning looks interesting...but boring
Monarch is a compelling mechanic for white and red who lack card draw naturally. I am still not convinced that its a mechanic that is ever going to make sense for the other colors without some sort of tagged on effect while monarch that is good. Blue tends to be good at drawing cards but also not neccessarily strong at defending itself from a table full of players. Personally I think its a mechanic that is best for white due to vigilant creatures, flyers, tokens, and pillowfort options. Blue theoretically could defend it, I just don't think its worth the hoops needed to when you could just run better draw.
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Post by JWK » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Hummm looking at the spoilers today and I realize, I am so far not impressed with this set. Let me start off with two things before I really get into things here:
  • The set is not fully spoiled so my comments are on the partial spoils we have seen so far.
  • My statement comes from the point of looking at cards as the 99. So far, I am not impressed with any of the legends but that isn't to say the legends are bad as commanders but none of them make me want to build them.
  • I think its healthy to not force power creep into every product so I am ok with everything not feeling like just must have cards in every deck possible. I would much rather see an appropriate power level set than something that just spins up more power creep.
I am so far, not really impressed by this set. Its appeal is supposed to be commander and limited. The legends are fine, but I am really not seeing much I plan to put into the 99 of any of my decks nor have I seen a commander I plan to do anything with. Given that legends are so much of the push of this product its weird to look at all of the ones spoiled so far and just see absolutely nothing that interests me.

Given how many new cards we were going to be getting I had been contemplating the idea of getting a few boxes of this product but as I see things get spoiled, I have yet to see anything that makes me interested in this product. More over, the cards I have seen in this set actually feel lower powered than the cards currently getting printed into standard set releases which has me scratching my head given the point of a product like this is to bypass standard, modern, and pioneer so that new broken things don't disrupt other formats but I feel like I am seeing downpowerd cards across the board.
I am seeing a fair number of niche cards I might run in the 99. Most of the legends so far don't do a lot for me, and the only ones that ispire me to potentially build a deck are the pirate legends. I have never been interested in a pirate deck before, but these ones might cause me to reconsider. And then there's the lizard. He's great in the 99.

I think the set looks potentially fun to draft, and thankfully I have a few friends who are COVID-safe enough that doing an actual draft is a potential thing. I expect some of what I draft with to have long-term play value, in the form of new toys to try in decks and some good reprints. Personally, I am good with that. I am glad the set does not appear super-pushed, save for Kodama, who I feel is very unfortunate and unlikely to be good for the format.
Last edited by JWK 11 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
JWK wrote:
1 year ago
https://twitter.com/TheHermitDruid/stat ... 79/photo/1

This little lizard is my new favorite card for the set. I dunno if I will run him as a partner (maybe, maybe not), but he is going to be slotted into the 99 of several decks. Zurgo, Saskia, Ruhan, Alesha... they will all love their new lizard pet!
My Akiri, Line-Slinger voltron wants to be rebuilt now....

EDIT: also Court of Cunning looks interesting...but boring
Monarch is a compelling mechanic for white and red who lack card draw naturally. I am still not convinced that its a mechanic that is ever going to make sense for the other colors without some sort of tagged on effect while monarch that is good. Blue tends to be good at drawing cards but also not neccessarily strong at defending itself from a table full of players. Personally I think its a mechanic that is best for white due to vigilant creatures, flyers, tokens, and pillowfort options. Blue theoretically could defend it, I just don't think its worth the hoops needed to when you could just run better draw.
I meant cunning looked interesting on it's own not as part of a RWU deck, personally i find mill to be a boring wincon
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