Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

People on Twitter are all up in arms about Opposition Agent, with someone stating their playgroup is banning it as a feel-bad card because it messes with Evolving Wilds.

Twitter might be, in its own way, just as bad a place for MtG discussion as Reddit.

I don't personally think anyone should feel badly about ramp being nerfed. This card is exactly the sort of thing needed to keep ramp in check. Which is part of why some people hate it so much.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
People on Twitter are all up in arms about Opposition Agent, with someone stating their playgroup is banning it as a feel-bad card because it messes with Evolving Wilds.

Twitter might be, in its own way, just as bad a place for MtG discussion as Reddit.

I don't personally think anyone should feel badly about ramp being nerfed. This card is exactly the sort of thing needed to keep ramp in check. Which is part of why some people hate it so much.
It reminds me of Notion Thief with less color requirements. Sure it can screw with fetchlands but I have to say that as a whole I see a LOT more card draw in a meta than I do tutors. It probably varies a bit from meta to meta but I don't really see the big deal.

I don't know.... I guess I will wait to see it in action. I am sure it will be everywhere at first. I just don't really think that its as amazing as people are making it out to be. Time will tell I guess.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

Play rocks. Play dorks. There are enough rainbow dorks and arcane signet is cheap now. I think part of the problem is that green used to be something of a noob trap; it is right to cut the guy running a Silvos, Rogue Elemental deck a bit of slack while he figures out how mana curves work. However, we as a format have kept this mindset while green has undergone astronomical power creep, both in range and quality of options available. Everyone other than green has had to deal with answers to their ramp. Why, other than popularity, should Cultivate be sacred but not signets?
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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

ZenN wrote:
11 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
11 months ago
Agreed. It's very good obviously, but less in the context of getting everyone's tutored stuff (because if you're casting Vampiric Tutor wth this on the field you might be mentally deficient) and more in the context of just regulating the tempo of a game and making your table work for its wins. Which I'm totally ok with, personally. Likewise with fetches and such, in a way it makes more financially expensive decks contend a little better with decks on a budget. Maybe it's a little griefy being able to steal people's lands and spells, but I'm alright with it. It's not like the guy casting a hard tutor was going to do something fair or even handed with that card they tutored for, so hey - they can't all be zingers, man.

Sure there's the feel bad of ramp getting nerfed, but honestly, if that's the best you're getting out of Opposition Agent you're probably not using it right either. I think in most scenarios this will get used once for a hard tutor and get nuked almost immediately following, so most cases it'll give you one shot at value. In legacy and vintage it'll be a lot more gross probably, but it's not worth the sweat people seem to be shedding on it in a multiplayer format.
I understand the people who are concerned with the existence of this card. There will be games when someone plays it on turn 1 or 2 and just takes over a game unless someone is immediately holding 1 or 2 mana removal, and doesn't need to fetch to cast it.

The third most played card of all time on EDHRec is Cultivate, in almost half of all decks. Green land tutors are one of the primary ways that very casual/low budget players account for a poor mana base. People are going to get very, very upset at this card.
Gonna correct that - people are going to get very, very upset about people being jerks with this card. As I said previously, if lands is all you're getting with this you're probably doing it wrong. Which is fine, there's people who're gonna wanna do that, but I don't wanna play with that sort of person, and anyone doing this sort of thing to a very casual player is 100% being a jerk. Furthermore, the sort of person that did this to casual players would 100% have found other ways to be a jerk to people who don't deserve it even if this card didn't exist. This is definitely a 'hate the player, not the card' scenario.

Aside from that, for the love of god people, run some damn removal. The amount of games I've sat down to where I'm propping up the rest of the table with answers is farcical. Removal is cheap and ample, there's no excuse in any combination of colours. If the table can't answer this in some way, shape or form, then may the lord have mercy on them.
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JWK
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
11 months ago
JWK wrote:
11 months ago
People on Twitter are all up in arms about Opposition Agent, with someone stating their playgroup is banning it as a feel-bad card because it messes with Evolving Wilds.

Twitter might be, in its own way, just as bad a place for MtG discussion as Reddit.

I don't personally think anyone should feel badly about ramp being nerfed. This card is exactly the sort of thing needed to keep ramp in check. Which is part of why some people hate it so much.
It reminds me of Notion Thief with less color requirements. Sure it can screw with fetchlands but I have to say that as a whole I see a LOT more card draw in a meta than I do tutors. It probably varies a bit from meta to meta but I don't really see the big deal.

I don't know.... I guess I will wait to see it in action. I am sure it will be everywhere at first. I just don't really think that its as amazing as people are making it out to be. Time will tell I guess.
I think it's a very good card, and much needed, but over time I have taken to running fewer and fewer tutors because I feel too many of them promotes a sameness in play patterns, so it won't bother me as much as it might some people. Other than land tutors in green, which are one of the main reasons to run green and which very much deserve to be rendered less reliable, and lands that fetch other lands, I usually run only a couple of tutors per deck, and sometimes run none.

I also don't think it will get played that much outside of more competitive metas and (maybe) cEDH because a lot of commander players are unwilling to devote many card slots to slowing down others' game plans, instead focusing entirely on advancing their own.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

If it's cheap, I'll pick one up just to soak removal and police tutor effects.
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
11 months ago
Gonna correct that - people are going to get very, very upset about people being jerks with this card. As I said previously, if lands is all you're getting with this you're probably doing it wrong. Which is fine, there's people who're gonna wanna do that, but I don't wanna play with that sort of person, and anyone doing this sort of thing to a very casual player is 100% being a jerk. Furthermore, the sort of person that did this to casual players would 100% have found other ways to be a jerk to people who don't deserve it even if this card didn't exist. This is definitely a 'hate the player, not the card' scenario.

Aside from that, for the love of god people, run some damn removal. The amount of games I've sat down to where I'm propping up the rest of the table with answers is farcical. Removal is cheap and ample, there's no excuse in any combination of colours. If the table can't answer this in some way, shape or form, then may the lord have mercy on them.
I guess you might cast this early in response to a ramp spell or someone cracking a fetch or Evolving Wilds both to get some early value for yourself and to slow the temple of the table, but outside that strategy, or maybe going against Oma4th and other dedicated landfall decks, I would think casting this in response to Terramorphic Expanse is a sign that either a) you are a complete dbag, or b) you have the worst threat assessment ever, or c) both of the above.

As to removal, it's astounding how little interaction many commander players pack. I ran into a guy running Oma4th online, and he had, like two counterspells and that was it, the rest of his deck was land, ramp and landfall cards + enablers. No Swords or Path, no wrath effects or other mass removal, not even any enchantment or artifact hate, and certainly no grave hate. He was astounded that people kept blowing up his enchantments and removing Ommy as soon as he got played, and called me and the other guy who kept doing that "haters" before dropping out of the game.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
If it's cheap, I'll pick one up just to soak removal and police tutor effects.
It is potentially a great rattlesnake card for sure. Get a bit of value, slow things down a bit, get someone to use their removal so they can play their ramp spells.

Makes me wish it had power 2 so I could slot it into Alesha.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
As to removal, it's astounding how little interaction many commander players pack. I ran into a guy running Oma4th online, and he had, like two counterspells and that was it, the rest of his deck was land, ramp and landfall cards + enablers. No Swords or Path, no wrath effects or other mass removal, not even any enchantment or artifact hate, and certainly no grave hate. He was astounded that people kept blowing up his enchantments and removing Ommy as soon as he got played, and called me and the other guy who kept doing that "haters" before dropping out of the game.
Yup. As someone who predominantly plays online vs randos, there are a ton of people out there who just wanna goldfish and aren't really interested in coming across any sort of interaction whatsoever. When you challenge them it's 'oh this is a meme deck' (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) or they just drop out of the game. It's stupidly hard to find a good, balanced game with folk that actually want to communicate like real humans.
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Post by able archer » 11 months ago

Add me to the Malcolm Keen-Eyed Navigator + Breeches, Brazen Plunderer fanclub!

Funnily enough, the only other pairing that inspires me atm is Brinelin, the Moon Kraken + Kodama of the East Tree: could be good for a "big ETBs"-style deck. Cast a big spell, Brinelin scoops up a permanent of yours for Kodama to plop back down again. Add Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, Thrasios, Triton Hero, and a stupid amount of ramp/draw to the 99, and you got a brew going.
ZenN wrote:
11 months ago
Green land tutors are one of the primary ways that very casual/low budget players account for a poor mana base. People are going to get very, very upset at this card.
That's what I fear, too. It's the Sylvan Primordial effect: puts you up on resources while punishing your opponents, so the game turns into "who can steal/clone the Agent" first. A lot of the time ramp is used to color fix, and same goes for fetches. This shuts those down and adds Insult // Injury (heh, pun).

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Post by nobody » 11 months ago

begin rant

I still cant believe people yes agent is a broken card, but in edh its in a sea of broken cards most of which are fast mana cards like ramp, and let me tell you, for those that don't play std , U/G ramp has ruined std for years to come by not only having the ramp be abundant and having no downside but also gaining you you life and drawing you cards. makes me wish agent was in zendikar, rising that way we wouldn't have to ban like 20 cards to fix std play!

end rant

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Post by Guardman » 11 months ago

So this is interesting, but apparently Opposition Agent combos really well with Maralen of the Mornsong and Scheming Symmetry. Honestly, an Maralen of the Mornsong deck with Opposition Agent in it just sounds consistent and awful to play against. It's basically a removal check. Either you kill one of them or everyone except the Maralen player is locked out of the game.

As for Opposition Agent itself. It's a cool cards that does a neat thing, but I do wish that it didn't hurt fetches and green ramp so hard. Or at least did it in a way that harmed ramp, but not in such a I gotcha sort of way. Green decks are usually the cheapest and easiest to play when you are first starting out in EDH, so I have a feeling that new players will feel the brunt of the pain from Opposition Agent.

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Post by Lifeless » 11 months ago

Agent is just another card that turns you into public enemy #1. It's a great card but these things have a tendency to work themselves out. It's pretty centralizing and I don't really love that part, but it's not going to be a card like Sylvan Primordial or Prophet of Kruphix that has to be removed before literally everyone clones the hell out of it. Basically it's great but we've seen much worse.

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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

Guardman wrote:
11 months ago
As for Opposition Agent itself. It's a cool cards that does a neat thing, but I do wish that it didn't hurt fetches and green ramp so hard. Or at least did it in a way that harmed ramp, but not in such a I gotcha sort of way. Green decks are usually the cheapest and easiest to play when you are first starting out in EDH, so I have a feeling that new players will feel the brunt of the pain from Opposition Agent.
To my mind, the card is sort of an acid test for whether or not you're an asshole. It ought never to stay on the field for long, so if you're stealing someone else's Cultivate you're probably going out of your way to do so, and might just be an asshole. It just feels like the kind of card people will show their true colours with.

For myself, if I pick up a copy I'm gonna be holding it for Tooth and Nail, Mystical Tutor, Finale of Devastation et al. You cannot seriously get mad if I turn the tables on you with these sorts of spells.
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Post by nobody » 11 months ago

Jackie one more thing ...

I forgot to mention that aven mind censor sees very little play and while this is better because it draws you a card, its not that much better because realistically your only going to get one card off your opponent the first time and then they stop tutoring when this is on the board.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 11 months ago

Guardman wrote:
11 months ago
So this is interesting, but apparently Opposition Agent combos really well with Maralen of the Mornsong and Scheming Symmetry. Honestly, an Maralen of the Mornsong deck with Opposition Agent in it just sounds consistent and awful to play against. It's basically a removal check. Either you kill one of them or everyone except the Maralen player is locked out of the game.

As for Opposition Agent itself. It's a cool cards that does a neat thing, but I do wish that it didn't hurt fetches and green ramp so hard. Or at least did it in a way that harmed ramp, but not in such a I gotcha sort of way. Green decks are usually the cheapest and easiest to play when you are first starting out in EDH, so I have a feeling that new players will feel the brunt of the pain from Opposition Agent.
See, Maralen of the Mornsong has always been miserable and I have always planned to tutor and kill her immediately or save removal for her. I don't think this changes anything really. Its true that if you have the rogue in your hand playing this you can set things up in one turn by end of turn flashing in the rogue then playing commander but that sort of commander was already prone to annoy people and or set other players off to win as is.

Sure, its some level of support for Maralen.... but I don't think its like a game changer or something. Everyone already wanted to murder you when you reveal that commander.
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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

I could see myself playing agent along with Sadistic Sacrament to deal with combo pieces.
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Post by nobody » 11 months ago

Don't know if memes are allowed here, but I got a good chuckle off thisImage
search hate.jpg

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Yeah, Maralen decks have pretty much always just been for people who enjoy trolly and misanthropic plays. This new card making Maralen decks worse is sort of like drizzling snot on a turd... sure, that's even more awful, but it was already awful enough that I don't know if that added touch really makes a difference.

Scheming Symmetry + Agent is fine value on its own without getting into Maralen territory.
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Post by Couver » 11 months ago

Serenade wrote:
11 months ago
I think you get a free Paradox Haze. Like, it just appears on the battlefield.

Kodama is too good.

Radiant is too bad.
I was thrilled when I saw the art and then :dizzy: when I saw that CMC. I'm guessing they intend her for a W/U flying matters deck. She pairs ok with Siani, Eye of the Storm I guess? But W/U have better options in Inniaz, the Gale Force and Isperia the Inscrutable . Could be an ok casual partner commander deck.

I also wonder if there is another partner yet to be spoiled that would work with her particularly a green one.

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Post by Serenade » 11 months ago

Yeah, that Radiant is such a disappointment. Nice that we got the character! Too bad the card stinks. I often paired my main general with Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker because, at the very least, it can block flying creatures while giving me access to a third color. I guess UW fliers could be a thing for limited, but I am not excited to use Siani or Radiant anywhere else.

I am fine that these new partners are mostly not overpowered, though.
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Post by DirkGently » 11 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
I could see myself playing agent along with Sadistic Sacrament to deal with combo pieces.
Pretty sure there's no interaction there, agent only works when they search their library, not you searching their library.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
11 months ago
Pretty sure there's no interaction there, agent only works when they search their library, not you searching their library.
This looks like a job for... janky Fertilid shenanigans!
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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
DirkGently wrote:
11 months ago
Pretty sure there's no interaction there, agent only works when they search their library, not you searching their library.
This looks like a job for... janky Fertilid shenanigans!
Field of Ruin is mandatory, too. Can confirm from previous forays with Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.
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Post by DirkGently » 11 months ago

Don't forget pte!

Edit: nvm, don't think it works because i think they can choose not to search before you gain control of them.

Still removes the downside though.
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