Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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UnfulfilledDesires
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 11 months ago

It's worth noting that proxies solve both the cost and flavor problems with these cards, as well as that of expensive staples. Folks have already made various MTG versions of Negan & company.

I've seen increased calls for banning the entire Reserved List in EDH in response to the controversial Secret Lair. That would be heartbreaking for me. The nostalgia factor of playing classic cards constitutes a key reason why I enjoy Commander.

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Post by Rorseph » 11 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
11 months ago
I've seen increased calls for banning the entire Reserved List in EDH in response to the controversial Secret Lair. That would be heartbreaking for me. The nostalgia factor of playing classic cards constitutes a key reason why I enjoy Commander.
Same here. Also, I wonder if those folks have actually taken a look at the full Reserved List. There are more Elkin Lairs than Lion's Eye Diamonds.
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JWK
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Cyberium wrote:
11 months ago

Ban the dual lands and all the expensive lands/rocks while we're at it, so people could stop worrying about not having the money for those broken cards.
It's an apples and airliners argument that doesn't in any manner address the actual problem about this SL project (i.e., mechanically unique, format-playable cards being available only as a premium project). For years early in the game's history, you could get dual lands out of normal booster packs. Those are scarce now because the game has grown vastly over time and has been around for decades, but back in the day, the duals weren't any different than any highly playable rare now.

I do think the Reserve List always was and continues to be a terrible thing, and it should be ended and all those cards (save for the dexterity and ante ones) be available for possible reprint. But that's really a completely separate issue from the Walking Dead Secret Lair.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
But that's really a completely separate issue from the Walking Dead Secret Lair.
I don't see how this distinction matters in practice today. What I care about is how much it costs me to acquire the cards I want for my decks. The TWD Secret Lair cards are far cheaper than many high-powered EDH staples like original dual lands and even some cards that have been reprinted, like Mana Crypt. I'm fortunate enough to have a number of expensive cards I run in my Commander decks, most of which I bought for significantly less than they're worth right now. But Lion's Eye Diamond is a lot harder for a new player to get than Negan will be.

I agree having mechanically unique cards in Secret Lairs is a dangerous precedent, but for the moment $10 a pop is better than $30 for Fierce Guardianship, as others have mentioned.

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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
11 months ago
JWK wrote:
11 months ago
But that's really a completely separate issue from the Walking Dead Secret Lair.
I don't see how this distinction matters in practice today. What I care about is how much it costs me to acquire the cards I want for my decks. The TWD Secret Lair cards are far cheaper than many high-powered EDH staples like original dual lands and even some cards that have been reprinted, like Mana Crypt. I'm fortunate enough to have a number of expensive cards I run in my Commander decks, most of which I bought for significantly less than they're worth right now. But Lion's Eye Diamond is a lot harder for a new player to get than Negan will be.

I agree having mechanically unique cards in Secret Lairs is a dangerous precedent, but for the moment $10 a pop is better than $30 for Fierce Guardianship, as others have mentioned.
That strikes me as a pretty short-sighted POV, which is particularly problematic when one considers the long-term health of this format and of MtG. These cards, if allowed into the format, will not be $10 for long, and will be in a lot smaller supply, and available for a lot shorter time, than any card released in one of the Commander decks, all of which (I believe) have had print runs larger than any Secret Lair to date. In a year they will be less available than Fierce Guardianship, and if any end up being popular commanders, they will probably be as or more expensive than FG by that time.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by Wallycaine » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
11 months ago
JWK wrote:
11 months ago
But that's really a completely separate issue from the Walking Dead Secret Lair.
I don't see how this distinction matters in practice today. What I care about is how much it costs me to acquire the cards I want for my decks. The TWD Secret Lair cards are far cheaper than many high-powered EDH staples like original dual lands and even some cards that have been reprinted, like Mana Crypt. I'm fortunate enough to have a number of expensive cards I run in my Commander decks, most of which I bought for significantly less than they're worth right now. But Lion's Eye Diamond is a lot harder for a new player to get than Negan will be.

I agree having mechanically unique cards in Secret Lairs is a dangerous precedent, but for the moment $10 a pop is better than $30 for Fierce Guardianship, as others have mentioned.
That strikes me as a pretty short-sighted POV, which is particularly problematic when one considers the long-term health of this format and of MtG. These cards, if allowed into the format, will not be $10 for long, and will be in a lot smaller supply, and available for a lot shorter time, than any card released in one of the Commander decks, all of which (I believe) have had print runs larger than any Secret Lair to date. In a year they will be less available than Fierce Guardianship, and if any end up being popular commanders, they will probably be as or more expensive than FG by that time.
That's some pretty hefty speculation, given that no other secret lair has had a similar trajectory. Even one's like the Bitterblossum Secret Lair, which was literally 40 dollars for a single card (and tokens) hasn't spiked past the initial price, so there's little reason to assume that these 10 dollar cards will end up 30 dollars anytime in the near future.

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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
11 months ago
given that no other secret lair has had a similar trajectory

there's little reason to assume that these 10 dollar cards will end up 30 dollars anytime in the near future.
Yup.

There're two differences: 1) these cards are mechanically unique, and 2) these cards are really just...average. No reason to think they will even be popular.

All things considered good cards are usually a lot more expensive than medium cards. I think it's far more likely that - with people able to order 10+ - a bunch of people are going to take a huge bath on them and have them rotting in their closets for years when people have long since forgotten TWD, no one cares about it, and there've been a hundred more interesting legends printed.

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Post by bobthefunny » 11 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
11 months ago
JWK wrote:
11 months ago
But that's really a completely separate issue from the Walking Dead Secret Lair.
I don't see how this distinction matters in practice today. What I care about is how much it costs me to acquire the cards I want for my decks. The TWD Secret Lair cards are far cheaper than many high-powered EDH staples like original dual lands and even some cards that have been reprinted, like Mana Crypt. I'm fortunate enough to have a number of expensive cards I run in my Commander decks, most of which I bought for significantly less than they're worth right now. But Lion's Eye Diamond is a lot harder for a new player to get than Negan will be.

I agree having mechanically unique cards in Secret Lairs is a dangerous precedent, but for the moment $10 a pop is better than $30 for Fierce Guardianship, as others have mentioned.
For more apt comparisons, look to the Hascon promos from before. They had a similar limited distribution model, that was predominantly online for most people, had a similar price point and cards per box, and crossover IPs that will (probably) never be reprinted.

Grimlock, Dinobot Leader // Grimlock, Ferocious King sits at $160+. Grimlock was the only legendary card in the box, and the only reasonably playable one. Nerf Wars($10) is simply rude to pull on your friends, and Sword of DnD ($20) is a little bit... powerful... comparatively. Transformers, Nerf, and DnD also have more overlap with the larger MTG fanbase.
The full set sells for $250+.

Princess Twilight Sparkle is sitting at $30+, equal to Fierce Guardianship.
Nightmare Moon // Princess Luna is at $30, equal to Fierce Guardianship.
Rarity is at $25
The entire pony set is $90+, to get all three. The pony bundle is likely less popular as well, due to the card effects being a bit more... wild. Twilight references cards that don't exist, Rarity has TWO distinct silver-border abilities, and Nightmare Moon is... also... additionally questionable in Commander, with the whole out of game thing. Grimlock at least mostly functions normally, though Transformers referring to cards with transform is a bit of an amusing double take (sadly, probably still the best werewolf commander we currently have).


These may end up higher as they are actually black border, and also have more realistic and reasonable effects, which makes them more approachable, easier to understand, and easier to build around.

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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
11 months ago
That's some pretty hefty speculation, given that no other secret lair has had a similar trajectory. Even one's like the Bitterblossum Secret Lair, which was literally 40 dollars for a single card (and tokens) hasn't spiked past the initial price, so there's little reason to assume that these 10 dollar cards will end up 30 dollars anytime in the near future.
It is of course speculation, since none of us can perfectly predict the future, but I think it very likely that the price trajectory for a new, mechanically unique card will be quite different than that of a new-art version of a card that had already received several printings. Mind you, I don't think all of the WD SL cards are likely to be very pricey, but the ones that are potentially interesting as commanders... well, we'll see.

In any case, my real problem with these isn't just the price, but the whole issue of releasing mechanically unique cards in this manner. I would think it was a terrible idea even if the cards in question were terrible, but the fact that these ones aren't terrible magnifies the problem factor.

EDIT to add: And as bobthefunny notes, the fact that numerous silver-border, limited-release cards fetch respectable prices suggests that black-border, playable ones have pretty good potential to do the same, and perhaps more. I stand by my prediction that a year from now, the more popular of these - assuming no ban or demotion to silver-border status - will be as pricey, and less readily available, than Fierce Guardianship.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

Everyone can order 10-30.

IF everyone could order 10-30 Fierce Guardianship for a week they would be far more available than they are now :P

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Post by Wallycaine » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
11 months ago
That's some pretty hefty speculation, given that no other secret lair has had a similar trajectory. Even one's like the Bitterblossum Secret Lair, which was literally 40 dollars for a single card (and tokens) hasn't spiked past the initial price, so there's little reason to assume that these 10 dollar cards will end up 30 dollars anytime in the near future.
It is of course speculation, since none of us can perfectly predict the future, but I think it very likely that the price trajectory for a new, mechanically unique card will be quite different than that of a new-art version of a card that had already received several printings. Mind you, I don't think all of the WD SL cards are likely to be very pricey, but the ones that are potentially interesting as commanders... well, we'll see.

In any case, my real problem with these isn't just the price, but the whole issue of releasing mechanically unique cards in this manner. I would think it was a terrible idea even if the cards in question were terrible, but the fact that these ones aren't terrible magnifies the problem factor.

EDIT to add: And as bobthefunny notes, the fact that numerous silver-border, limited-release cards fetch respectable prices suggests that black-border, playable ones have pretty good potential to do the same, and perhaps more. I stand by my prediction that a year from now, the more popular of these - assuming no ban or demotion to silver-border status - will be as pricey, and less readily available, than Fierce Guardianship.
The silver border cards had a completely different distribution method. They printed X number of those, and once all X were sold out (usually about 35 seconds after they were put online), there were no more. If a similar rush happened on the Walking Dead cards... they'd continue to sell them for the rest of the week. I can almost guarantee there will be far more Neegan's in the world next year than Nerf War's.

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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

okay so Glenn had me go okay and then this happened, i would leaned RW tbh:
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Post by able archer » 11 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
11 months ago
For more apt comparisons, look to the Hascon promos from before. They had a similar limited distribution model, that was predominantly online for most people, had a similar price point and cards per box, and crossover IPs that will (probably) never be reprinted.
Not an apt comparison for one key reason: the Secret Lairs are printed to demand, while HASCON wasn't.

There will ultimately be a far greater number of folks who're unable to get HASCON promos than these.

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Post by umtiger » 11 months ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
11 months ago
It's worth noting that proxies solve both the cost and flavor problems with these cards, as well as that of expensive staples. Folks have already made various MTG versions of Negan & company.

I've seen increased calls for banning the entire Reserved List in EDH in response to the controversial Secret Lair. That would be heartbreaking for me. The nostalgia factor of playing classic cards constitutes a key reason why I enjoy Commander.
So, these cards already look like some digital altered proxies. The art and execution is not quite the level of the Godzilla cards.

From a personal aesthetics preference, none of these are playable. And even if they were playable enough, that aren't even good enough to overcome their appearances. Seems to me, if you're not a fan of Walking Dead, no reason to even consider needing these, so why complain about price/availability? And if you are a fan of Walking Dead, still no reason to complain about price/availability all things considered.

If you want to complain about the trajectory of MTG, you could have considered that when the first EDH pre-cons were released. It's been a while now...

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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

so,stupid question: Rick's card doesn't say until end of turn, so does that mean forever like Riding the Dilu Horse 's effect?
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Post by WizardMN » 11 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
so,stupid question: Rick's card doesn't say until end of turn, so does that mean forever like Riding the Dilu Horse 's effect?
Knight Exemplar doesn't say until end of turn either :)

Static effects like Rick's end when the permanent generating the Continuous Effect leaves the battlefield. It doesn't say until end of turn because that is not when it wears off. It wears off when Rick leaves.

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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
11 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
so,stupid question: Rick's card doesn't say until end of turn, so does that mean forever like Riding the Dilu Horse 's effect?
Knight Exemplar doesn't say until end of turn either :)

Static effects like Rick's end when the permanent generating the Continuous Effect leaves the battlefield. It doesn't say until end of turn because that is not when it wears off. It wears off when Rick leaves.
I always get confused/hung up about static effects
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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

I'm gonna reach out to my group and see if i can print this alter out and slide it on top of a common in a sleeve and call it good
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Post by DirkGently » 11 months ago

Personally I would be absolutely fine to let someone play a proxied version of these cards. (Preferably with alt art)

If they've got the real thing, I would be absolutely fine to walk away from the table.

If WotC's goal with black borders was to make them unquestionably legal, then I intend to make that goal backfire as hard as %$#% possible.
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Post by WizardMN » 11 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
11 months ago
If they've got the real thing, I would be absolutely fine to walk away from the table.

If WotC's goal with black borders was to make them unquestionably legal, then I intend to make that goal backfire as hard as %$#% possible.
When I first saw these, I would have liked these banned as well due to what they represent to the game as a whole and the issues going forward. They have been hashed out here and I won't restate what others have stated.

However, your comments here honestly lead me to the other side of the argument. To punish players because they choose to play with legal cards that you think they shouldn't solely because of the business decisions behind them rather than an in game reason is asinine. And not playing with the people using these cards just makes you look like a tool. The line between "ban these cards so no one can use them" and "players just shouldn't use these cards even though they are legal" is razor thin.

At the very least, I could see the argument for the former being sending WotC a message that these things will not be tolerated in the format they are clearly designed for. But that ship has sailed. The RC made a decision and people are going to use the cards if they want. Now, your dedication to this cause hurts no one other than fellow players for no other reason than your blind devotion to a cause that not everyone shares your opinion on.

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Post by DirkGently » 11 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
11 months ago
However, your comments here honestly lead me to the other side of the argument. To punish players because they choose to play with legal cards that you think they shouldn't solely because of the business decisions behind them rather than an in game reason is asinine. And not playing with the people using these cards just makes you look like a tool. The line between "ban these cards so no one can use them" and "players just shouldn't use these cards even though they are legal" is razor thin.

At the very least, I could see the argument for the former being sending WotC a message that these things will not be tolerated in the format they are clearly designed for. But that ship has sailed. The RC made a decision and people are going to use the cards if they want. Now, your dedication to this cause hurts no one other than fellow players for no other reason than your blind devotion to a cause that not everyone shares your opinion on.
The only thing WotC is really going to listen to is the money. If players find that commander tables are unwilling to play against these products, maybe they'll stop buying them, and WotC won't be motivated to keep producing them.

At this point, virtually everyone who's still planning to buy these - especially since they're only purchasable through the internet - is buying them in spite of the community reaction, not out of ignorance. I do feel sympathy for clueless TWD fans to might theoretically navigate through the internet to buy these without understanding the controversy, but I've got no sympathy for the established MtG player who cares more about their own short-term enjoyment than the health of the game by supporting these business practices. But it's not about punishing those players, it's not about malice towards them, it's not about being rude. It's about creating an environment that incentivizes the behavior that might bring the game back on track. Because if it doesn't get back on track then it's not going to be a game worth playing for much longer, and that's way more important to me than not looking like a tool.
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
I'm gonna reach out to my group and see if i can print this alter out and slide it on top of a common in a sleeve and call it good
I love the idea of this being an Odric card, but I prefer this version.
odric3.png
Particularly the flavor text.

This whole TWD Secret Lair debacle has changed my mind about one thing. I have never been a fan of custom alters, and I don't normally play proxies save for cards I have ordered or traded for that have not arrived yet. I never play proxies of cards I don't own at all - until now. Until such time as non-Walking Dead versions of these cards are available, I will gladly play these versions of these cards.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by not-a-cube » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
I'm gonna reach out to my group and see if i can print this alter out and slide it on top of a common in a sleeve and call it good
I love the idea of this being an Odric card, but I prefer this version.odric3.png

Particularly the flavor text.

This whole TWD Secret Lair debacle has changed my mind about one thing. I have never been a fan of custom alters, and I don't normally play proxies save for cards I have ordered or traded for that have not arrived yet. I never play proxies of cards I don't own at all - until now. Until such time as non-Walking Dead versions of these cards are available, I will gladly play these versions of these cards.
Very nice, although proxies should never have an existing set logo. If this was a real card in f.e. commander legends i'd have been delighted to open one.
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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

Here's more options for alters
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Post by Serenade » 11 months ago

Commander Legends leaks abound on Reddit. Some wild stuff in there.
Unofficial Spoiler Discussion
I thought it would be much longer before we got an Amulet of Vigor effect on a legend.
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