Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 6 months ago

@BeneTleilax

Thankfully the cards therein seem legitimately terrible. I highly doubt that Negan is going to be knockung over cedh tables anytime soon.

onering
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Post by onering » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
So,

While these have precedent in the Pony and Transformers cards, those were silver-bordered and thus de facto banned in Commander. These, however, remind me far too much of box toppers, with the added problem that Wizards has already said they won't reprint them. I honestly hope RC categorically bans them, because I cannot see this being healthy for the format in the slightest.
I'm ambivalent but inclined to agree. I don't think these cards are strong enough, at least the ones I've seen, that you'd feel compelled to play them UNLESS you're a big Walking Dead fan, so in practice I don't see them being a problem. On principle, though, I want them banned, because just because these are cute super casual commanders for fans who are willing to sacrifice power for flavor, that doesn't mean future cards will be. They're weak enough that I can't imagine any playgroup disallowing them if banned (or if they were silver bordered), because the pilot is basically asking if they can run a custom card that is weaker than most real options and choosing to handicap themselves by doing so. I don't want to see WotC print singles in limited quantities that are capable of being format all stars and thus super expensive. Cut the precedent off before it gets set.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

onering wrote:
6 months ago
They're weak enough that I can't imagine any playgroup disallowing them if banned (or if they were silver bordered), because the pilot is basically asking if they can run a custom card that is weaker than most real options and choosing to handicap themselves by doing so. I don't want to see WotC print singles in limited quantities that are capable of being format all stars and thus super expensive. Cut the precedent off before it gets set.
Exactly. Standard players looked at Firesong and Sunspeaker and concluded that they were underpowered and irrelevant. Then Nexus happened. Unlike Standard, we have the privilege of a ban list separate from WotC, and is thus one inclined to prioritize format health without a strong ulterior motive. So unlike those who first overlooked Firesong, we have the chance to nip a problem in the bud. I don't think these are only dangerous if they are truly OP, in fact, they'd be less of a danger if they were because they'd be banned for power level. My concern is that they make a Yarok or a Smothering Tithe, an archetype staple that is nonetheless perfectly within the power level of the format. An unreprintable, limited edition staple. It probably wouldn't cost *more* than duals, which are legal, so it wouldn't even trip the "barrier to entry" criteria, while nonetheless raising a significant barrier to entry. I don't really see an answer other than treating these cards as categorically different.
Last edited by BeneTleilax 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 6 months ago

What a %$#% move from wotc. Let's hope they won't print to much legendaries... but i doubt it. They will market it directly to the commander players.

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 6 months ago

I'd have adored this if they were just reskinned, existing legendary (or otherwise, like Mothra) cards. As they currently stand? Hate. Hate hate hate, double hate, LOATH entirely. I sincerely hope the RC steps in before the product actually goes on sale.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

Do they watch this thread, or should we move to the banned list discussion?

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 6 months ago

Yeah, this is a truly bad idea, creating new, unique cards that are legal in formats but which are available only via a Secret Lair or other promotional or premium program.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 6 months ago

Any chance someone can link whatever is in this product for me. Not sure where to go to find said spoils.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat- ... -exclusive
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/magic ... 0-6482651/
Both are, in themselves, rather underpowered. My fear is in the precedent they set. WotC has a history of making scarce cards like these with the promise that they will only be for casual, then ratcheting up the powerlevel as soon as people look away. Remember the first mythics, or unique box-toppers?
Last edited by BeneTleilax 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by toctheyounger » 6 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
6 months ago
Any chance someone can link whatever is in this product for me. Not sure where to go to find said spoils.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-09-28

I personally think this is an awful idea. These should be banned purely for scarcity of print.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 6 months ago

Very, very, very no.

I would suggest that everyone reading/participating in the thread go drop the public faces of Magic a line about this. Preferably not like scathing or anything, but expressing displeasure. Gavin's video today explicitly called for community feedback with regards to ZNR commander decks, and stated that they do listen to the player base. Let's let them hear it then :P
 
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

I think the RC is going to be much more responsive than Hasbro on this. WotC has overlooked similar concerns on unique box toppers and I see no indication that they are more scrupulous now.

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 6 months ago

Personally, I think its fine if they release cards that are just ok outside of normal releases. I just don't want to see like.... a new Teferi's Protection level of card that is only avalible through a direct to customer premium price product. I think that the Zendikar commander product level of power for new cards is fine. They priced them well and its not a scarcity sort of product. You can go and buy singles on those cards and they aren't out of control. I still remember the horror that was True-Name Nemesis and what it did to the ability to buy that commander deck. As long as wizards keeps the price low and doesn't print them at some premium price / scarcity model I am ok with it.

Wizards does seriously need to print less %$#% in the year though. Its getting out of control. Its only ok because I don't feel like I have to have everything they print that I am ok.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

I don't see why they wouldn't make a new Teferi's Protection in this. Every precedent points to this being a problem down the line. If the RC doesn't treat these as a separate category, Lair Protection is no more bannable than Teferi's.

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
I don't see why they wouldn't make a new Teferi's Protection in this. Every precedent points to this being a problem down the line. If the RC doesn't treat these as a separate category, Lair Protection is no more bannable than Teferi's.
Its more of that level of $$$ in cards that come in a precon. In the past every time we have seen high powered cards in prcons it has done sort of bad things to the price tags of those decks. I would rather see the high powered cards come in standard legal packs for whatever that is worth.
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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 6 months ago

It's a scummy sales tactic but nothing from Hasbro should surprise us anymore.

Remember when Maro introduced mythic rares and said they were going to be printing fewer cards per year? Sure, that was a long time ago but man it did not age well.

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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

I haven't jumped on but I know sheldon tweeted about them being discussed on the RC discord
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
6 months ago
Its more of that level of $$$ in cards that come in a precon. In the past every time we have seen high powered cards in prcons it has done sort of bad things to the price tags of those decks. I would rather see the high powered cards come in standard legal packs for whatever that is worth.
These will be far rarer than precon cards, and unlike precon cards, WotC has already said that they will not reprint them outside Secret Lair. While I don't love hypertuned precon cards, they've at least been pretty good about reprinting them in later precons. These have no such ceiling.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 6 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
I find the secret lair product to be deeply worrying. They're releasing them constantly, with artificially narrow windows to give customers a sense of urgency and the inability to see how the prices will shake out in any meaningful way, cutting out LGSs, and selling what are essentially premium cosmetic upgrades...Gee, does that maybe sound like the predatory practice of another, perhaps related, industry? Nah, clearly just my imagination.

On the other hand, as someone who doesn't care for foils and already owns the cards, it doesn't really affect me in a meaningful way. I won't buy them and wotc can make extra cash off whales. So right now, they just annoy me.

That annoyance will quickly turn to blinding rage if they start putting exclusives in these.

Luckily, there's definitely not a pattern of WotC using functionally unique cards to boost the sales of otherwise unpopular products...like BaB promos, or brawl precons, or game nights, or theme boosters...
Damn, I hate it when I'm right.

So obviously bad precedent yadda yadda, but how are more people not annoyed that, when they decided to pull this kind of overreaching garbage, AND for the very first time print a card that only exists in a non-mtg-multiverse flavor...the property they went with, of ALL things, was the terrible awful no good very bad "Walking (I threw up in my mouth) Dead"?

And I mean, of all the times when it would have made sense to go with comic book art, this was it. Instead we've got pictures of living actors just...hanging out on our cards, like they were designed by some lazy kid with a custom card template and access to google images.

I've kept a collection of every legendary creature ever printed - I've got all of p3k in english, all of original legends, even the stupid BaB promos in non-foil - but I refuse to add these abominations to it, even if it means my collection is incomplete.

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Post by plushpenguin » 6 months ago

I said four words to WoTC on my twitter on the matter.

"Never do this again".

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Post by toctheyounger » 6 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
6 months ago
So obviously bad precedent yadda yadda, but how are more people not annoyed that, when they decided to pull this kind of overreaching garbage, AND for the very first time print a card that only exists in a non-mtg-multiverse flavor...the property they went with, of ALL things, was the terrible awful no good very bad "Walking (I threw up in my mouth) Dead"?
Hey, now, it's alright.... We get Strixhaven next year, there's plenty of time for a Secret Lair exclusive Harry Potter tie in.
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 6 months ago

I much better like the godzilla idea to give different art/skin to already existing magic cards.
BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
6 months ago
Its more of that level of $$$ in cards that come in a precon. In the past every time we have seen high powered cards in prcons it has done sort of bad things to the price tags of those decks. I would rather see the high powered cards come in standard legal packs for whatever that is worth.
These will be far rarer than precon cards, and unlike precon cards, WotC has already said that they will not reprint them outside Secret Lair. While I don't love hypertuned precon cards, they've at least been pretty good about reprinting them in later precons. These have no such ceiling.



Honesty I wish they had just printed another set of zilortha like cards.
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Post by Wallycaine » 6 months ago

I'm not really seeing where people are pulling "they're not going to reprint them" when every outlet, including those quoted in this thread, have emphasized that they are willing to reprint these cards or reasonable facsimiles of them if there is sufficient demand. They'll use different art, and probably something similar to the Godzilla series when it comes to the name, but if there's enough demand for the mechanics they will reprint them, and have been sure to communicate that repeatedly.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

Ask Three Visits how functional reprints affect the prices on EDH staples.

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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
Ask Three Visits how functional reprints affect the prices on EDH staples.
I would but my landlord has more pressing questions
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