Unreleased and New Card Discussion

umtiger
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Post by umtiger » 7 months ago

I wish that the Green and Red mdfc mythics were just a bit different. Then they would have been considerations in my Nikya deck, but the effects aren't things I'm looking for.

But you know down the road, there might be a mdfc that's a better fit for my deck. The mechanic is just a lot of upside for Nikya and ramp decks in general.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

Yeah, MDFCs have some very interesting applications. I'm looking forwards to seeing some more in the coming sets... partially because love Possibility Storm shenanigans. The ZNR ones don't really work with it, but I'd definitely consider a (creature // sorcery) as a way to cheat out Primal Surge. Sort of similar to the Adventure cards, I suppose.

...going in the opposite direction, I've seen a fair number of brews for Goblin Charbelcher / Recross the Paths shenanigans because they allow you to cut all the lands from your deck, which is hilarious. Zuran Orb + Second Sunrise could also have some interesting implications, although that is significantly more difficult to pull off.

....that said, you're definitely paying a premium for the flexibility, since all the spells are at least a little overcosted. Should be interesting to test, at least. I do think I prefer transform as mechanic though - quests / challenges make for more interesting gameplay and also allow for a higher power level due to needing to jump through hoops to get the payoff. I guess that Spikes may favor MDFCs though, since more options allow for higher consistency. Hmmm...

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cheonice
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Post by cheonice » 7 months ago

I don't know, this set does not really catch my attention. Sure, there are many cool and fun cards, but the flavour is just dull... This doesn't feel like Zendikar. All the sufffering from the Eldrazi was just... meaningless...
Seagate? Rebuilt!
Wastes? Nope, the Roil flooded them with Mana again.
Eldrazi? Never heard of them.
Allies? Not neccessary, we have Parties now!
Old Zendikar with traps, treasures and expeditions? Yeah, kinda, I guess? We have expeditionary houses now!

Nontheless there are some cards for my decks:

Gonti, Lord of Luxury
- Feed the Swarm: Finally a way to deal with those pesky enchantments other than stealing removal from opponents!

Lord Windgrace
- Moraug, Fury of Akoum
- Lotus Cobra: No more excuses!
Testing:
- Geode Ranger
- Phylath, World Sculptor
- Scute Swarm

Ephara, God of the Polis
Testing:
- Confounding Conundrum
- Archon of Emeria

Orah, Skyclave Hierophant aka "The potential Cleric EDH I'm trying to build since Onslaught"
- Taborax, Hope's Demise

Neheb, the Eternal aka "The seventyninth excuse to play Mono Red"
- Leyline Tyrant
- Valakut Exploration
- Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge

An I need to take a look at these weird lands... yeah, probably not really my set...

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 7 months ago

cheonice wrote:
7 months ago
I don't know, this set does not really catch my attention. Sure, there are many cool and fun cards, but the flavour is just dull... This doesn't feel like Zendikar. All the sufffering from the Eldrazi was just... meaningless...
I also noticed this. Really about the only zendikar feeling things that remain seem to be landfall and land based concepts (flip cards with lands on the back). Its really odd that they sort of ran from all of the other concepts. It sucks for me as I play allies in modern and was REALLY looking forward to getting some new high powered allies (given the crazy freaking power level of late).

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh well
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Post by onering » 7 months ago

Agree about the allies being conspicuously missing. Terrible mistake I think, especially since Party is a watered down crappy version that will disappear from memory once it rotates, or even once the set is not the one being drafted.

No quests or traps or other neat things from the original block.

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Post by JWK » 7 months ago

I am also disappointed we didn't get more allies, and I think party will be mostly terrible outside limited, but I think this one has plenty of cool toys.

The flavor uundertone of the set seems to be that the pre-Eldrazi Kor were a bunch of dicks, which is not what I would have expected.
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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

Okay so I just played a game with Lithoform Engine and it is crazy. Unlike other similar effects that copy abilities or copy spells, this is always going to do something. It was Brawl on MTGA, but damn I need to get me some of these for commander. things I did in one game:
1. Copy Nissa of Shadowed Boughs ultimate, reanimating two creatures
2. Copying Massacre Wurm's etb trigger (I had 8 mana only)
3. Copying a Fiend Artisan activation to get two targets from the library.
4. Copying a removal spell to kill two creatures.

The versatility is outstanding. I could have copied Massacre Wurm multiple times but had better things to do because this thing is so versatile. And it can copy itself.

I have a lot of decks and this is Mythic, but I will definitely try to get a bunch of copies if the price drops under 10$.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

I've got kind of a dumb hankering to build Tymna and Thrasios party tribal. Get some cheap rogues and warriors in there and have a shindig.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 7 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
I've got kind of a dumb hankering to build Tymna and Thrasios party tribal. Get some cheap rogues and warriors in there and have a shindig.
You're better than this. Pick partners that make a lad feel alive.

On topic, I like the party mechanic on paper. It's a neat little converse of tribal effects. However, this zendikar is so flavorless. I'd rather them wait another 8 years to take us back than to hamfist it like they have. That being said, the og zendikar didn't really hype me all that much, so maybe this is residual disinterest spread thinly over 6 freaking sets and 3 blocks now.

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Myllior
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Post by Myllior » 7 months ago

Only a few cards I'm interested in from this set, which I don't mind; it's nice to get a breather from needing to find a whole bunch of spaces for new cards or evaluating chase cards on the basis that release may be the only chance to get them at a reasonable price.

Archon of Emeria - Into Derevi, Empyrial Tactician it goes, as a straight upgrade over Eidolon of Rhetoric in effect and evasion. Not being an enchantment is also a plus, to avoid nonbo's with Bane of Progress|C15 and the like.

Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn - One of the criticisms I've seen of this card regards how many cards you'll realistically draw from it, but Kefnet the Mindful is built around maintaining 7+ cards as much as possible, so this is an excellent addition. Having no max hand size for the rest of the game is sweet too, since I'll typically have 11 or 13 cards in hand after casting this.

Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge - Another pseudo-wheel for Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion. It's better than Khorvath's Fury by a fair bit and doesn't take up a spell slot, so it's an easy addition.

Skyclave Apparition - I'm considering this for a potential Brago, King Eternal deck. Repeated blinks let you exile the targeted permanent and then exile the created Illusion on the next blink, making it a damn good piece. A slightly more expensive, but vastly better, Baffling End.
(Edited after Lyonhaert's post below, as this doesn't work).
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
7 months ago
On topic, I like the party mechanic on paper.
I quite like it too. It does seem a little forced in Zendikar Rising, but my theory is that they're setting it up to return in the D&D: Forgotten Realms set next year, where it makes much more sense. I'm a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate games so I'm going to be pretty hyped for that set from now until it releases.
Last edited by Myllior 7 months ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by plushpenguin » 7 months ago

Scute Swarm - These pesky bugs are almost impossible to deal with using spot removal in any land-themed deck.

You basically need to boardwipe them to deal with them once they are out. And then hope that they don't have recursion and land plays to keep getting them back. Even 16 of them (which is much easier than it sounds) turns into lethal for a table with any overrun effect.

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 7 months ago

Myllior wrote:
7 months ago
Skyclave Apparition - I'm considering this for a potential Brago, King Eternal deck. Repeated blinks let you exile the targeted permanent and then exile the created Illusion on the next blink, making it a damn good piece
Nope. Target has to be nontoken.
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Myllior
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Post by Myllior » 7 months ago

lyonhaert wrote:
7 months ago
Nope. Target has to be nontoken.
Oops. Good catch; thanks!

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Post by toctheyounger » 7 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
And it can copy itself.
It can, but it is a legendary artifact, so you will lose one to SBA's. I guess if you have enough mana it means you don't need a way to untap it to reuse it's effects, but it still seems like a lot of hoops to jump through to get multiple Engines.
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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
7 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
And it can copy itself.
It can, but it is a legendary artifact, so you will lose one to SBA's. I guess if you have enough mana it means you don't need a way to untap it to reuse it's effects, but it still seems like a lot of hoops to jump through to get multiple Engines.
I was thinking more that if someone wanted to destroy it you could just make a copy.
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Post by toctheyounger » 7 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
7 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
And it can copy itself.
It can, but it is a legendary artifact, so you will lose one to SBA's. I guess if you have enough mana it means you don't need a way to untap it to reuse it's effects, but it still seems like a lot of hoops to jump through to get multiple Engines.
I was thinking more that if someone wanted to destroy it you could just make a copy.
Fair point. You probably still need a way to untap it to do the good stuff you want it to do and copy itself but Clock of Omens doesn't see enough play anyway. There's options.
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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
7 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
7 months ago

It can, but it is a legendary artifact, so you will lose one to SBA's. I guess if you have enough mana it means you don't need a way to untap it to reuse it's effects, but it still seems like a lot of hoops to jump through to get multiple Engines.
I was thinking more that if someone wanted to destroy it you could just make a copy.
Fair point. You probably still need a way to untap it to do the good stuff you want it to do and copy itself but Clock of Omens doesn't see enough play anyway. There's options.
No, Lithoform Engine can't copy itself - it can only copy permanent spells, meaning it can only copy things on the stack. It can't copy a permanent already on the battlefield. Think of it more like a super-flexible Mirrorworks or Minion Reflector.

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Post by toctheyounger » 7 months ago

Mookie wrote:
7 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
7 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago

I was thinking more that if someone wanted to destroy it you could just make a copy.
Fair point. You probably still need a way to untap it to do the good stuff you want it to do and copy itself but Clock of Omens doesn't see enough play anyway. There's options.
No, Lithoform Engine can't copy itself - it can only copy permanent spells, meaning it can only copy things on the stack. It can't copy a permanent already on the battlefield. Think of it more like a super-flexible Mirrorworks or Minion Reflector.
Ah, that spell word seals it. Good spotting.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 7 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
Okay so I just played a game with Lithoform Engine and it is crazy. Unlike other similar effects that copy abilities or copy spells, this is always going to do something. It was Brawl on MTGA, but damn I need to get me some of these for commander. things I did in one game:
1. Copy Nissa of Shadowed Boughs ultimate, reanimating two creatures
2. Copying Massacre Wurm's etb trigger (I had 8 mana only)
3. Copying a Fiend Artisan activation to get two targets from the library.
4. Copying a removal spell to kill two creatures.

The versatility is outstanding. I could have copied Massacre Wurm multiple times but had better things to do because this thing is so versatile. And it can copy itself.

I have a lot of decks and this is Mythic, but I will definitely try to get a bunch of copies if the price drops under 10$.
My issue with Lithoform Engine is its a complete mana monger. The turn it comes into play its not likely to be activated for much just given its going to be 6 mana plus needing something to target so assuming you want to double fetchland or something that means you would need essentially 7 mana that turn and that is one of the cheaper things you could do. Its possible you could target a tap creature ability and it would be a little less expensive so if your commander has a tap to do something relivant that copying would be relivant I guess its a six mana play but otherwise its SUPER late in the game or going to do nothing when it is played.

It kind of reminds me of Sunforger in that the setup to get it in and started feels enormous and the opponent threat perception also seems to be present. It just looks like a lot of setup as well as perceived threat perception in my opinion.

My opinion of this card is that its slow, clunky, and non optimal. Good decks are built on low curves and making things happen fast, cheap, and without a lot of setup. This card feels slow and like it requires a lot of setup and time to do its thing. I am not saying it won't have a place that it works, I just think that a lot of people are in my opinion jumping to conclusions and trying to put it everywhere.

The setup and payoff of this card are slow and clunky. It might be ok in some ramp heavy decks or where a commander has a sick tap ability but I really think this card is completely over hyped (looking at its price tag). I honestly don't see this card having more than a few dollar price tag a year from now. (but then again that is my opinion on a lot of clunky things that a lot of other players love that have price tags that in my opinion they shouldn't)
Mookie wrote:
7 months ago
No, Lithoform Engine can't copy itself - it can only copy permanent spells, meaning it can only copy things on the stack. It can't copy a permanent already on the battlefield. Think of it more like a super-flexible Mirrorworks or Minion Reflector.
Oh man, I didn't even see that and my thoughts on the card were already fairly low. I guess I have to lower my expectations even further.
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Post by JWK » 7 months ago

I think the faster/more competitive your meta is, the worse Lithoform Engine will be most of the time. I am planning to play it mostly in decks that produce a ton of mana and/or which include lots of ways to cast artifacts and/or activate or copy abilities cheaply. Of my current decks, it will definitely go in Brudiclad, Jhoira and Kurkesh, and if I can get enough copies I think it may have a place in Zacama and possibly Kenrith.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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Post by Sinis » 7 months ago

I'm going to build a party oriented Tazri, Beacon of Unity deck. The party stuff mostly sucks, but I think there are enough party-goers (can't use the term 'Adventurer' because of Eldraine) over magic's history to make a deck viable. I also want to add some sweet D&D flavour to it: I'm going to play some of the Traps from OG Zendikar (probably not enough of them for Trapmaker's Snare, and I'm also going to use a bunch of niche answers with instant speed tutors to 'spring traps' on other players. Think Mystical Teachings with cards like Seedtime, False Cure, Deflecting Palm etc. I'm unsure if I can squeeze some of the other instant speed stuff in there (like Chord of Calling/Eladamri's Call for niche creature answers like Aven Mindcensor, Alms Collector or similar). Maybe some classic D&D monsters, like, some of the wizards in the deck will definitely be Lichs (Tomebound Lich, Vindictive Lich).

If my group assents (and I'm sure they will), I'll also play Sword of Dungeons & Dragons. I expect it will be fun, and probably terrible. But I'm going to do it, just because.

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Post by toctheyounger » 7 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
7 months ago
My issue with Lithoform Engine is its a complete mana monger. The turn it comes into play its not likely to be activated for much just given its going to be 6 mana plus needing something to target so assuming you want to double fetchland or something that means you would need essentially 7 mana that turn and that is one of the cheaper things you could do. Its possible you could target a tap creature ability and it would be a little less expensive so if your commander has a tap to do something relivant that copying would be relivant I guess its a six mana play but otherwise its SUPER late in the game or going to do nothing when it is played.
Generally I think the same. It's going to need a lot of architecture around it to make it really hum, and that means a pretty particular build to make it work well. You're looking at significant untap mechanisms and a ton of mana, so probably some sort of clockwork Voltaic Key/Clock of Omens type thing or Seedborn Muse type shenanigans. Those things are good on their own in the right place, but adding this all to make one card work makes that card pretty damn hungry, and all this is just to get extra activations out of it, to say nothing of the extra mana required with each tap.

I think it was a great idea, but it spreads itself too thin to be excellent and just needs far too much resource. I get that they were trying to make Rings of Brighthearth/Strionic Resonator but less powered, I just think they watered it down too far with costliness for it to be as strong as it could have been.
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Post by JWK » 7 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
7 months ago
I get that they were trying to make Rings of Brighthearth/Strionic Resonator but less powered, I just think they watered it down too far with costliness for it to be as strong as it could have been.
Personally, I'm good with that. If it were cheaper to cast and activate, or could be activated multiple times a turn without jumping through hoops, it would be way broken. As is, it's an extremely versatile card that offers good value in the right deck, but it isn't completely broken. It's not the next Paradox Engine, thankfully. I would rather have flexible value engines than completely broken stuff.

I still think it's going to be good in the format, but probably not in the super-fast metas. I also think a lot of people will randomly jam it into decks and then be disappointed by how it performs, but that's fine, if for no other reason than that it will drive the price down. People need to remember that a card being good doesn't mean it automatically belongs in every deck that can run it.
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Post by tstorm823 » 7 months ago

I am, so far, sticking with my original assessment of Lithoform Engine: it's too clunky as a value engine to be valuable, but too easy to copy the right things and go infinite.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

So,

While these have precedent in the Pony and Transformers cards, those were silver-bordered and thus de facto banned in Commander. These, however, remind me far too much of box toppers, with the added problem that Wizards has already said they won't reprint them. I honestly hope RC categorically bans them, because I cannot see this being healthy for the format in the slightest.

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