Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Lithoform Engine is pretty nuts. It sort of does cover quite a wide area, and I'm not sure if there's a ton of decks that need all of the abilities it offers, so I wonder if it's a little more of a trap than it looks. I could be wrong, I just can't think of a deck of mine that would use every part of the card regularly.

Forsaken Monument seems great for brown decks or artifact heavy decks.

Gotta say, at this point in the spoilers my want list is pretty small. I'm ok with that, though.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Oh boy, lotta good stuff while I was asleep.

Forsaken Monument looks insane for brown decks. Guess it's hard to begrudge them an insane enabler given that they're playing with more restrictions than anyone else.

Akiri, Fearless Voyager I like more every time I look at her. I love that the ability is stronger in commander (for having multiple opponents to attack) without specifying commander on it. I love that boros finally got an equipment commander (I know Tiana, Ship's Caretaker exists but (1) she's better with auras and (2) she's garbage). And I love that, unlike syr gwyn, she works with Zirda, the Dawnwaker, plus protects him. Definitely one I'm likely to make soon, I just hope she flies under most peoples' radar so I can feel like a hipster. Is she weaker than Gywn? Probably, but syr gwyn is too easy mode, too much of a removal magnet. Akiri has way more nuance, absolutely preferable imo. I've been waiting for a boros equipment commander since 2013 and we finally got it!

Lithoform Engine looks pretty bonkers although the costs are high enough that it's probably not broken. If you're just looking for one ability, it's generally outclassed by other cards, but if you can get value from multiple - say a spellslinger deck playing fetchlands, not hard to do - then it's got a lot of value. I'm glad it taps, puts a bit of a limit on the power level and makes me hope it's a cool fun card and not a dumb broken Paradox Engine card.

Skyclave Relic is very neat, although the breakpoints are pretty clunky for my Kaervek the Merciless deck, so I'm not sure I have a use for it. I guess it's ok in Zirilan of the Claw, but not the most exciting.

Inscription of Insight bleh, sorcery. It might have some interest for me as an instant but as a sorcery it's trash.

Maddening Cacophony Help, police, murder...

Ondu Inversion Phelddagrif getting the goods this set. I wish this had been the mythic so it'd come with the option to untap it, but this is the kind of split card that's perfect for the grif. Sometimes you need to wipe the board, and sometimes you just need to hit land drops to avoid capping out your hand. And of course you can always get this back to hand with a handy dandy karoo land late-game. Really really nice to have this sort of effect available at such a low opportunity cost, and I don't mind the high mana cost a lot of the time.

I give today's spoilers an A+.

EDIT: ooh, fun note - because of how akiri's ability is worded, she can give indestructible through Lightning Greaves, plus won't kill a creature if it removes Captain's Hook (although unfortunately other similar equipment, like Grafted Exoskeleton, are sacrifice instead of destroy so they'll still kill the creature).
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UnfulfilledDesires
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

Lithoform Engine makes me think of that classic Mirari flavor text: "It offers you what you want, no what you need." Such cards do nothing on their own. They require both ample mana & other cards to cast to have an effect. Thankfully, in casual EDH, what would be win-more in other format might not even be enough, so Lithoform Engine will have a place. & it's far more flexible than Mirari.

(Yes, Mirari & Mirari's Wake did have a prominent place in Standard for a bit. These seemingly win-more cards can function well in 20-life duels under the right circumstances.)

Speaking of Wake, Forsaken Monument is a better version for colorless decks. I might try to fit it into my Kozilek, the Great Distortion list.

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JWK
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Post by JWK » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Akiri, Fearless Voyager I like more every time I look at her. I love that the ability is stronger in commander (for having multiple opponents to attack) without specifying commander on it. I love that boros finally got an equipment commander (I know Tiana, Ship's Caretaker exists but (1) she's better with auras and (2) she's garbage). And I love that, unlike syr gwyn, she works with Zirda, the Dawnwaker, plus protects him. Definitely one I'm likely to make soon, I just hope she flies under most peoples' radar so I can feel like a hipster. Is she weaker than Gywn? Probably, but syr gwyn is too easy mode, too much of a removal magnet. Akiri has way more nuance, absolutely preferable imo. I've been waiting for a boros equipment commander since 2013 and we finally got it!
Yeah, I'm liking her quite a bit. She is the one legendary in the set so far that makes me excited to build a new deck, vs. potentially slotting into some existing one.
Lithoform Engine looks pretty bonkers although the costs are high enough that it's probably not broken. If you're just looking for one ability, it's generally outclassed by other cards, but if you can get value from multiple - say a spellslinger deck playing fetchlands, not hard to do - then it's got a lot of value. I'm glad it taps, puts a bit of a limit on the power level and makes me hope it's a cool fun card and not a dumb broken Paradox Engine card.
I don't see it as anywhere near Paradox Engine, but unlike some other powerful artifacts of recent years -Panharmonicon, for example - I see Lithoform Engine fitting into an awful lot of decks because of the sheer number of good options it offers, vs. having to play a lot of any single sort of effect. Looking at my deck lists, I don't see any that wouldn't benefit at multiple points in the game from being able to copy triggered or activated abilities, instants, sorceries or permanents. I already love Mirrorpool and Strionic Resonator, and this does more than either. It's probably too slow and costly for hyper-tuned decks or cEDH, but for the level I play at, it looks to be potentially quite good.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Well, Scute Swarm goes quite handily into most Ashaya lists, I imagine. If nothing else, it's absurd ramp.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
Well, Scute Swarm goes quite handily into most Ashaya lists, I imagine. If nothing else, it's absurd ramp.
Ashaya, Soul of the Wild specifies "non-token" for that exact reason. It's still a solid option, but only the original Scute Swarm will be a forest, the rest will be non-land 1/1's.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Lithoform Engine is a card I fear will fall in the "too low a return to play for value, but too easy to combo" gap, where it's just never satisfying, but the Melvin in me loves the copy permanent spell aspect.

Nahiri's Lithoforming I think is stronger than people initially suspect, because it's trivially easy to have way more mana than lands in play, and the ramp part isn't limited by the sacrifice like the draw is. So if you have 10 mana and only 5 lands (from mana rocks or mana doublers), you can still play 8 additional lands even though you only sacrificed 5.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Nahiri's Lithoforming I think is stronger than people initially suspect, because it's trivially easy to have way more mana than lands in play, and the ramp part isn't limited by the sacrifice like the draw is. So if you have 10 mana and only 5 lands (from mana rocks or mana doublers), you can still play 8 additional lands even though you only sacrificed 5.
How often will that be relevant? You'd have to have a bunch of lands already in hand. Which maybe you do if you're loaming or crucibleing or whatever, but then why are you playing all this artifact ramp in your lands deck?
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Lithoform Engine is a card I fear will fall in the "too low a return to play for value, but too easy to combo" gap, where it's just never satisfying, but the Melvin in me loves the copy permanent spell aspect.

Nahiri's Lithoforming I think is stronger than people initially suspect, because it's trivially easy to have way more mana than lands in play, and the ramp part isn't limited by the sacrifice like the draw is. So if you have 10 mana and only 5 lands (from mana rocks or mana doublers), you can still play 8 additional lands even though you only sacrificed 5.
It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, since you'll only draw 5 cards. So you either need to already have a stupid number of lands in hand, or a decent number in your graveyard and a way to play them from there. I'd also point out that the spell turns off the "play a fetchland from the graveyard over and over again" trick without an amulet of vigor or the like, since the fetch will etb tapped.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
How often will that be relevant? You'd have to have a bunch of lands already in hand. Which maybe you do if you're loaming or crucibleing or whatever, but then why are you playing all this artifact ramp in your lands deck?
Or, you're playing an edh deck, and you've got like 20 cards in hand to begin with. I'm thinking of this card relative to two particular decks I've played. One is Zedruu, where I'm not at all a lands deck, but can casually have a ton of lands in hand. I also would have the option there to like Leave // Chance my lands to begin with and make it a mega Summer Bloom. The other deck in mind was Mina and Denn, Wildborn,which I played as a ramp deck with mana doublers and mass land destruction, and this card could very easily be draw a ton before destroying all lands, then play my lands back out aggressively.

Like, I don't think the card is a staple that you play just anywhere by any means, but it can be super powerful in the right circumstances.
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, since you'll only draw 5 cards. So you either need to already have a stupid number of lands in hand, or a decent number in your graveyard and a way to play them from there. I'd also point out that the spell turns off the "play a fetchland from the graveyard over and over again" trick without an amulet of vigor or the like, since the fetch will etb tapped.
Stupid numbers of cards in hand typically have stupid numbers of lands. And that's where I prefer to be in general.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Or, you're playing an edh deck, and you've got like 20 cards in hand to begin with. I'm thinking of this card relative to two particular decks I've played. One is Zedruu, where I'm not at all a lands deck, but can casually have a ton of lands in hand. I also would have the option there to like Leave // Chance my lands to begin with and make it a mega Summer Bloom. The other deck in mind was Mina and Denn, Wildborn,which I played as a ramp deck with mana doublers and mass land destruction, and this card could very easily be draw a ton before destroying all lands, then play my lands back out aggressively.

Like, I don't think the card is a staple that you play just anywhere by any means, but it can be super powerful in the right circumstances.

Stupid numbers of cards in hand typically have stupid numbers of lands. And that's where I prefer to be in general.
So you've got a ton of cards in hand, and a ton of mana, and the best thing to do with that setup is draw a few more cards and generate a bit more mana?

Plus it's heinously bad early and pretty awful in the midgame too. You really need to be majorly set up for this, and then it's still just a modest improvement over Braingeyser for most decks, a card which is pretty mediocre these days and sees little play.

In a lands/landfall deck like mina and denn, though, it definitely could have some legs. Although it still suffers from requiring a lot of setup and being terrible early. If you're going to run this, it better be because it's going to win you the game most of the time.

I'd be shocked if it exceeds 2% on EDHrec, and honestly it probably will settle below 1%. It's a very niche card.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Or, you're playing an edh deck, and you've got like 20 cards in hand to begin with. I'm thinking of this card relative to two particular decks I've played. One is Zedruu, where I'm not at all a lands deck, but can casually have a ton of lands in hand. I also would have the option there to like Leave // Chance my lands to begin with and make it a mega Summer Bloom. The other deck in mind was Mina and Denn, Wildborn,which I played as a ramp deck with mana doublers and mass land destruction, and this card could very easily be draw a ton before destroying all lands, then play my lands back out aggressively.

Like, I don't think the card is a staple that you play just anywhere by any means, but it can be super powerful in the right circumstances.

Stupid numbers of cards in hand typically have stupid numbers of lands. And that's where I prefer to be in general.
So you've got a ton of cards in hand, and a ton of mana, and the best thing to do with that setup is draw a few more cards and generate a bit more mana?

Plus it's heinously bad early and pretty awful in the midgame too. You really need to be majorly set up for this, and then it's still just a modest improvement over Braingeyser for most decks, a card which is pretty mediocre these days and sees little play.

In a lands/landfall deck like mina and denn, though, it definitely could have some legs. Although it still suffers from requiring a lot of setup and being terrible early. If you're going to run this, it better be because it's going to win you the game most of the time.

I'd be shocked if it exceeds 2% on EDHrec. It's a very niche card.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "heinously bad early". In a sense, this effectively gives your lands in hand pseudo cycling, since you can calibrate X to be the number you can be confident you'll still be able to play that turn. Or if you're running a deck with Crucible/Excavator, it's basically X card draw, which is much stronger in Red than Blue. It's not always going to be the best play, but that's true of many cards. I do agree it will be strongest in landfall heavy decks, since it can fuel some fairly explosive plays there.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "heinously bad early". In a sense, this effectively gives your lands in hand pseudo cycling, since you can calibrate X to be the number you can be confident you'll still be able to play that turn. Or if you're running a deck with Crucible/Excavator, it's basically X card draw, which is much stronger in Red than Blue. It's not always going to be the best play, but that's true of many cards. I do agree it will be strongest in landfall heavy decks, since it can fuel some fairly explosive plays there.
Ok, so let's say you're on 4 mana with 2 lands in hand and cast this for X=2. Draw 2, play your lands. You're down a card, haven't gained any mana, and tapped out your turn. I'd say that qualifies as heinously bad. And 4 mana is already kinda pushing the definition of "early".

I mean sure, if you're sitting on 6 lands with 5 in hand because you've had some once-in-a-hundred-games flood-out, cycling your hand even at the cost of a card and all your mana for the turn might be the right play, but it's still pretty awful.

You probably didn't mean to say the bolded the way you did, but I'll highlight it because it's the sort of flawed justification a lot of people use - running a card =/= having that card in play. You have to draw it. Then you have to cast it. And even then, without other synergies you've basically made braingeyser, a card which isn't particularly impressive, certainly not as the end goal of a combo.

Outside of landfall decks I think this card will be essentially unplayable.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Outside of landfall decks I think this card will be essentially unplayable.
Well, I don't play any landfall decks currently, and I guarantee I'll do some dumb things with it. It might involve a Time Spiral or a Bonus Round or a Mind Over Matter, but dumbness will happen, and it will be glorious.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Well, I don't play any landfall decks currently, and I guarantee I'll do some dumb things with it. It might involve a Time Spiral or a Bonus Round or a Mind Over Matter, but dumbness will happen, and it will be glorious.
Of course if you like the card there's no reason you shouldn't run it. But in terms of "will the deck be better with this card in it?" I think, outside of landfall decks, the answer will almost certainly be "no". Even with the cards you're talking about, at least 2/3 of which I'd say qualify as "hard not to combo with", I don't see this doing anything particularly powerful.

They even hedged against copy shenanigans since the sacrifice is part of the effect and not the cost. Although at least that means you don't get absolutely annihilated by counterspells.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6


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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Excavator or crucible are not a worthwhile combo alone with lithoforming. You made braingeyser. Whoop-dee-doo. And when you don't have those cards, lithoforming is terrible.

Splendid Reclamation/world shaper are fine I guess, but can be enabled so much more efficiently by other cards - most of the decks running them are land decks (which might want lithoforming already as I've said - if they're red at least) or dredge decks (which can enable this much more easily and don't have much reason to want this effect without the synergy). Planar rebirth adds an extra step by making you run a bunch of basics, which you're generally not motivated to do (also a slight risk of helping opponents, although that's not a huge deal). And while it's a decent payoff if you do it, you also need to have a decent number of lands in hand, no matter what it's probably not game-winning, and both cards are usually terrible on their own. They'd need a deck that already wanted to run both individually, and then gets extra value when it can combo them together, AND is ok with sabotaging its own mana base with too many basics. Niche incarnate.

Faith's reward et al add significant additional cost, so now your spell basically costs which is incredibly expensive for what you're getting out of it, and very slow. Brought back is cheaper but doesn't really do a ton since it's only 2 (plus you could just, idk, crack 2 fetches to get the same value without putting up with all this nonsense). And again, these decks better want to run both cards individually before thinking about synergy since they won't be drawn together super often, and won't win the game when they do. Maybe there's some boros eggs deck that could run them, I won't pretend to be an expert on eggs - but even then I'm dubious since the card is so bad without a card to combo with it, and often not that exciting even with one.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Hermes_
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Excavator or crucible are not a worthwhile combo alone with lithoforming. You made braingeyser. Whoop-dee-doo. And when you don't have those cards, lithoforming is terrible.
This feels like an incredibly disingenous take because you're ignoring the blatantly obvious: This is a different color than Braingeyser. Shockingly, red does not have access to braingeyser, and would probably murder a person for access to Braingeyser. So having an extra hoop to jump through to get access to a card that red doesn't normally have access to is an interesting effect.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
This feels like an incredibly disingenous take because you're ignoring the blatantly obvious: This is a different color than Braingeyser. Shockingly, red does not have access to braingeyser, and would probably murder a person for access to Braingeyser. So having an extra hoop to jump through to get access to a card that red doesn't normally have access to is an interesting effect.
There is an immense difference between "getting this effect" and "getting this effect when used in combination with one specific other card." Like, such a huge difference that, unless the effect you're getting is winning the game or nearly so, it's hardly worth talking about. Especially since red has a hard time tutoring up crucible (and an even harder time tutoring up lithoforming).

If you said "this type of effect (of which there are multiple sources) plus this type of effect (of which there are multiple sources) are strong but not game-winning together" then sure, that's relevant, but from what I can see we're talking about one specific card and one specific other card, and the result is really not that impressive. Sure, it's a bit better than Commune with Lava, but that card is awful.

This is a niche card for landfall decks and otherwise it's jank.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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UnfulfilledDesires
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
red does not have access to braingeyser, and would probably murder a person for access to Braingeyser.
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Sure, it's a bit better than Commune with Lava, but that card is awful.
Confirming Wallycaine's point, my GRx spellslinger decks love Commune with Lava. Even an "awful" Braingeyser is hard to come by in those colors.

One potential application for Nahiri's Lithoforming is with Amulet of Vigor. A single bounce land & suddenly it becomes a ritual in addition to a draw spell.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
1 year ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
red does not have access to braingeyser, and would probably murder a person for access to Braingeyser.
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Sure, it's a bit better than Commune with Lava, but that card is awful.
Confirming Wallycaine's point, my GRx spellslinger decks love Commune with Lava. Even an "awful" Braingeyser is hard to come by in those colors.

One potential application for Nahiri's Lithoforming is with Amulet of Vigor. A single bounce land & suddenly it becomes a ritual in addition to a draw spell.
Yeah, the classic example is Harmonize being very strong in green, despite Concentrate being sub par at best in blue. Turns out getting access to an ability that you don't normally have access to is more powerful than that same ability in the color that has a dozen and a half versions of it.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
1 year ago
Confirming Wallycaine's point, my GRx spellslinger decks love Commune with Lava. Even an "awful" Braingeyser is hard to come by in those colors.

One potential application for Nahiri's Lithoforming is with Amulet of Vigor. A single bounce land & suddenly it becomes a ritual in addition to a draw spell.
Ok again though, it's not "just braingeyser" it's "braingeyser with a very difficult additional step, which if you're willing to do you could just win the game if you picked different cards".

Personally I'm dubious that it's ever really worth running commune with lava, but however you slice it it's at 1% on EDHrec despite being printed in a recent precon, so it's certainly niche.

One bounceland with amulet of vigor (oh neat, now we've made a THREE card combo), IF you can use all the land drops, will still leave you down 1 mana overall. If you've got 2 bouncelands I guess you could chain them together to get (your mana - 2) doubled (at the cost of having few lands on board), but now we're talking 4 cards. And we haven't really drawn cards - you basically just got free cycling on the lands in your hand and topdeck, but your total number of cards hasn't changed unless you're also using the lands in the graveyard.

Really don't get why people want this card to be good so badly. If you want it to be good, play landfall decks. Otherwise it kinda sucks.

@Feyd_Ruin Sure, I've been saying all along that it's good for landfall decks. It's not just good anywhere else. If the braingeyser "combo" comes together in a deck that already wanted both cards, then that's a neat bonus, but it's not the reason to run the card in a deck that otherwise can't abuse the effect.
Last edited by DirkGently 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 1 year ago

Nahiri's Lithoforming won't work in most decks, but some decks will love it.

If your commander is Omnath, Locus of Rage, you're probably already running Ramunap Excavator, Crucible of Worlds, etc.

Braingeyser is good, sure, but when it also creates a table-ending army of 5/5s....
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
One bounceland with amulet of vigor (oh neat, now we've made a THREE card combo), IF you can use all the land drops, will still leave you down 1 mana overall. If you've got 2 bouncelands I guess you could chain them together to get (your mana - 2) doubled (at the cost of having few lands on board), but now we're talking 4 cards.
You don't need two bouncelands. With Amulet of Vigor on the battlefield, if you play Gruul Turf, two abilities trigger. You put the return a land trigger on the bottom of the stack & resolve Amulet's untap first. Before resolving the return trigger, you tap Turf for mana. In this scenario, each land drop equals RG.

If I didn't want to make the most out of bad cards, I wouldn't play casual EDH!

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