Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 7 months ago

For why Confounding Conundrum is U instead of any other color, it's important to look at the actual effect. It bounces land, rather than sacrificing it or preventing it from entering. And in order to get it down to the cost they wanted, it had to bounce, as that allows it to be a semi-drawback against decks with Landfall. Since bouncing is a blue effect, they pretty clearly had to put it in blue.

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 7 months ago

A Cleric, a Rogue, a Warrior, and a Wizard walked into a bar...looks like a chaff draft mechanic rather than anything that can be consistently used in commander.

Bounce lands are going to have more versatility given Valakut Awakening and whatever else is printed. That is Azorius Chancery, etc and even Lairs Crosis's Catacombs, etc.
Being able to turn your lands into spells further into the game gives these bounce lands more utility.
Valakut Awakening is going into my cEDH Kalamax, the Stormsire deck because between being a spell and a land, that is just super impressive. The fact that it actually gives you card advantage by drawing you an additional card makes it super strong.

The Pathway lands are pretty average given that they only fix on a single color through the course of the game and are still non-basics so suffer from all the hate in Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Ruination, etc.
Can't be searched by land type either and basic land searches.

Confounding Conundrum does make trying to use fetchlands during the same turn put into play, means that they'll have to return a land. And actually this is pretty common in commander.

Omnath, Locus of Creation with fetchlands played and cracked on the same turn give you RGWU which is not to be snuffed at.
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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

Welp, lots of stuff to discuss.

Party - as a D&D player, I'm amused. Mixed-tribal isn't a thing we've really seen before, so it will be interesting to see how it works out. These tribes are all pretty well supported, which is good. I don't know if there will be enough support to justify running these cards in the 99, but looks like we'll have some legends to support it from the command zone. (no fighter though D:)

Pathways - these all seem quite strong. Can be awkward for 3+ color decks, since they only tap for one color once you make the choice, but making sure you have access to all of your colors in a two color deck is pretty good. I wasn't expecting them to push the lands this much, since they're very-nearly-strictly-better than a basic, but...

Modal spell/lands - again, these seem strong. Run it as a tapped land, and use the flip side if you already have enough lands. Or run it for the spell half, and play it as a land if you're mana screwed. Modularity is good. Still, I don't think I would run them if the spell half weren't already something my deck wanted - these cards look a lot worse if you only ever use one half.

As for individual cards...
  • Tazri, Beacon of Unity - five color card advantage engine, so may have cEDH implications... but otherwise, looks fine - requires a fair amount of building around, and seems like a fun commander for party tribal.
  • Drana, the Last Bloodchief - also looks fun. Attack triggers are a little slow, and opponent's choice is a minus... but seems quite potent overall.
  • Omnath, Locus of Creation - seems reasonable, but..... why? Pattern following, I guess? I guess it's fine to have an alternative to Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis, but... meh.
  • Confounding Conundrum - no complains from me - we've needed better anti-ramp options for a long time. I don't know if this is necessarily the best way to go about it, but it's at least worth a shot. You do need to get it down pretty early though, since it doesn't do anything
  • about lands that have already been played out.
  • Coveted Prize - a solid payoff for party. I'd skip it if it were Diabolic Tutor or worse consistently, but at Cruel Tutor or better it looks good. And if you can get it to only one mana, it looks absurd.
  • Lotus Cobra - reprint at rare makes me happy. It was one of the major cards I wanted for my planned landfall deck. May have to wait for it to rotate out of standard first though for the price to come down.
  • Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate - seems difficult to get a full party in a vacuum, and detaining a creature isn't a super exciting payoff. Still, seems like a solid role player for Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage decks - giving your team indestructible / hexproof is pretty good.
  • Orah, Skyclave Hierophant - an actual cleric tribal commander? Amazing. Also seems like a potent combo piece.
  • Zareth San, the Trickster - ninjutsu returns! Looks quite fun and tricksy. No commander ninjutsu makes it a little awkward, but flash helps.
  • Ruin Crab - not quite the same as Hedron Crab, since it can't target its controller, but still seems fun.
  • Merfolk Windrobber is Flying Men+ for decks that want it.
  • Murasa Rootgrazer seems like a fantastic landfall enabler. I've been happy with Budoka Gardener // Dokai, Weaver of Life in my Samut deck, but don't know if I have enough landfall synergies to justify running another instance of the effect.
  • Spoils of Adventure is another strong party payoff.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 7 months ago

Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate is perfect for my Dakkon Blackblade deck. It needs cheap evasive to synergize with Sword of the Animist, Dowsing Dagger, & so on. It needs ways to protect Dakkon. It needs legendary creatures for Blackblade Reforged. & Dakkon's a Warrior, making party that much more likely. I made have to add a few Clerics.

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Post by Hawk » 7 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
7 months ago
For why Confounding Conundrum is U instead of any other color, it's important to look at the actual effect. It bounces land, rather than sacrificing it or preventing it from entering. And in order to get it down to the cost they wanted, it had to bounce, as that allows it to be a semi-drawback against decks with Landfall. Since bouncing is a blue effect, they pretty clearly had to put it in blue.
This is all fair and true - this card looks an awful lot like Overburden which is old but not that old.

I do also think that no one would have bat an eye at this in White (the color of hatebears/taxing), and it would have been totally reasonable in Black or even Red as colors that can mess with lands. All of those colors "need" this more in EDH than Blue, the best color in Magic, does.

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Post by Hermes_ » 7 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
7 months ago

Omnath, Locus of Creation with fetchlands played and cracked on the same turn give you RGWU which is not to be snuffed at.
My first thought was "how can i break this" then I realized Exploration is a card i already own then i went looking for more.....
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Post by 3drinks » 7 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
7 months ago
For why Confounding Conundrum is U instead of any other color, it's important to look at the actual effect. It bounces land, rather than sacrificing it or preventing it from entering. And in order to get it down to the cost they wanted, it had to bounce, as that allows it to be a semi-drawback against decks with Landfall. Since bouncing is a blue effect, they pretty clearly had to put it in blue.
Right. It should have been B, not u, and sacrificed instead of bounced. And costed three, which puts it between this and tainted aether. Selfishly, I guess.
Mookie wrote:
7 months ago
Party - as a D&D player, I'm amused. Mixed-tribal isn't a thing we've really seen before, so it will be interesting to see how it works out. These tribes are all pretty well supported, which is good. I don't know if there will be enough support to justify running these cards in the 99, but looks like we'll have some legends to support it from the command zone. (no fighter though D:)
Best pick up your Sword of Dungeons & Dragons now, folks!
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Post by Wallycaine » 7 months ago

Hawk wrote:
7 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
7 months ago
For why Confounding Conundrum is U instead of any other color, it's important to look at the actual effect. It bounces land, rather than sacrificing it or preventing it from entering. And in order to get it down to the cost they wanted, it had to bounce, as that allows it to be a semi-drawback against decks with Landfall. Since bouncing is a blue effect, they pretty clearly had to put it in blue.
This is all fair and true - this card looks an awful lot like Overburden which is old but not that old.

I do also think that no one would have bat an eye at this in White (the color of hatebears/taxing), and it would have been totally reasonable in Black or even Red as colors that can mess with lands. All of those colors "need" this more in EDH than Blue, the best color in Magic, does.
I think the issue is that any of those other colors would need to find a different "tax" effect than bouncing, because that's not how those colors do taxes or mess with lands. Blue's the only color that bounces opponent's permanents as a tax, so a White version of the effect would look closer to Limited Resources, and a black version closer to Tainted Aether. Either of those versions would have to cost significantly more, and likely not accomplish the play design goals of this card, since while it certainly works in EDH, I believe it was intended for Standard as a solid hate card to the ramp packages that are currently rampant (pun intended). It has the sense of a safety valve hate card to me, and the effects it can provide in larger formats is a nice bonus, not the sole reason for the card.

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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

Re: Confounding Conundrum, I would agree that ramp hate could have gone in pretty much any color.

White has Limited Resources and could prevent the playing of lands. I could also see a Kismet or Containment Priest effect.
Blue has bounce, as shown in the card itself.
Black could conceivably have a Tainted Aether effect.
Red has Zo-Zu the Punisher effects.
Even green technically has Nature's Wrath, although I don't think that is still in color pie.

I'd say that the main difference between all these effects are how aggressively they can be costed. Actually destroying or exiling the ramped lands is going to cost a lot more than just bouncing it or dealing damage. Simultaneously, if you want the card to function as an effective hate piece, it needs to come down before the ramp player can start ramping. Given that they even stapled a cantrip on the card (and the recent problems in standard with green ramp decks), I'd say that making this effect playable in constructed was a pretty major goal.

I'll also note that bouncing the land (instead of killing it entirely) means that the ramp spells still at least have an effect, and makes the card more interesting in the context of landfall - this card very specifically hates on ramp, while not hindering dedicated landfall strategies that much, which has some design elegance.

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Post by toctheyounger » 7 months ago

For what it's worth, I don't think it's worth losing a ton of sleep over. It's fine, but not spectacular. In fact for things like Mystic Sanctuary it's going to pay dividends for the right opponent's deck. Assuming we see landfall in significant numbers (and knowing that Azusa, Lost but Seeking has been reprinted recently along with Dryad of the Ilysian Grove) it's very much play around-able. It'd be kind of neat to play it for the cantrip, Donate it somehow, and use the land bounce trigger for value yourself as well as mild disruption for your opponents, that'd be cool.

That being said, yeah resource denial in other colours would be nice, too. I'm not going out of my way to pick it up, though.
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

Collecting Zendikar Rising wrote:The Buy-a-Box card is no longer a mechanically unique card
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Post by darrenhabib » 7 months ago

Been trying to come up for combos with Orah, Skyclave Hierophant.

Doomed Necromancer and Whisper, Blood Liturgist looks to be one of the better ones you can use it with.
Doomed Necromancer can be sacrificed to bring back both a 2 cmc or less Cleric (Orah ability) and then return a 4 cmc Cleric or more to look to kill that to bring back the Doomed Necromancer.
As per normal a sacrifice outlet is usually the key to these things, so imagine sacrificing Orah, Skyclave Hierophant with say Phyrexian Altar to bring back the Necromancer. You can use the b to pay for the Necromancer ability to bring back Orah.
You'd need recurring haste to go infinite with this.
As far as 2 cmc or less targets to actually make use of this, Children of Korlis for infinite life or Sacred Guide for card advantage.
Of course with Phyrexian Altar you can just get infinite mana to pay for the Sacred Guide.

Whisper, Blood Liturgist can be used in a similar way. For example say you sacrifice Whisper (to it's own ability) and another Cleric to bring back a 5 cmc or more Cleric. In this example I'll use Barrenton Medic because it can kill itself.
You'll get 2 Orah, Skyclave Hierophant triggers, so as long as you have a 3 cmc or less Cleric, Whisper itself dying will bring a Cleric back into play.
When Barrenton dies you can bring the Whisper, Blood Liturgist back into play.
If you have haste then you can do this infinitely.
Alright so this is just a loop so you'll need your 3 cmc or less Cleric to actually do something, but there are plenty of them.
Inquisitor Exarch or Kalastria Healer deal lethal. Qarsi Sadist as well if you have a 1 cmc Cleric as well.
Lots of infinite life gainers.
Emissary of Sunrise filters through deck.
Imperious Oligarch, Ministrant of Obligation, Rotlung Reanimator for infinite token creatures.
Guardian of Pilgrims for infinite +1/+1 counters.
There are various removal Clerics for artifacts, enchantment and creatures as well.

Leonin Relic-Warder with a reanimation enchantment in Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy allows for infinite recursion of a 1 cmc Cleric.
So Children of Korlis for infinite life or Sacred Guide to get cards for each 1w you have available.

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Post by NZB2323 » 7 months ago

Orah, Skyclave Hierophant is definetly tempting as a cleric tribal commander, but I think I'll keep Tymna the Weaver and Ravos, Soultender as commanders and run Orah in my build. He seems especially good with Selfless Spirit and Remorseful Cleric.
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Post by 3drinks » 7 months ago

Yeah @darrenhabib Rotlung Reanimator was exactly where my mind went when I first saw that card too. Card will certainly be a role player no doubt.

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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

Skyclave Apparition looks like a new staple removal critter. Doesn't hit everything, but CMC 4 or less hits a lot of things. The opponent not getting their permanent back when it leaves is a pretty significant upside, which white usually doesn't get on Oblivion Ring effects. I guess Baffling End did something similar first though. I'll give it a shot in Brago, but don't know if I would run it in Teysa.

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Post by Hawk » 7 months ago

Mookie wrote:
7 months ago
Skyclave Apparition looks like a new staple removal critter. Doesn't hit everything, but CMC 4 or less hits a lot of things. The opponent not getting their permanent back when it leaves is a pretty significant upside, which white usually doesn't get on Oblivion Ring effects. I guess Baffling End did something similar first though. I'll give it a shot in Brago, but don't know if I would run it in Teysa.
Agreed. I plugged this in to my "removal and restrictions" analysis. If it only hit creatures it would still be fine - it'd be around average, but with high "value" since it hits so many of the most popular commanders. But being able to hit any non-land permament is a huge deal. Stuff like Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Lightning Greaves are all ubiquitous in the format so this should always have a juicy target to hit. I don't think it will quite be an auto-include, but it's a lot closer to Generous Gift than it is to Baffling End and I think if your deck is in to flickering, small dudes, spirits, or kors (which describes a significant amount of Wx decks) this card is going to be really good.

Day two of spoilers so far is mostly "how is the draft environment going to work" - lots of stuff that seems really marginal. A few other cards that have caught my interest...

Ashaya, Soul of the Wild: This card breaks my brain a bit. I can't decide if it is amazing (it's a huge fatty that is also a Cryptolith Rite and that makes you immune to Cyclonic Rift!) or terrible (if someone casts Blood Moon I don't know what happens but it seems disastrous). I think on balance it is pretty good.

Kaza, Roil Chaser: This card seems an interesting commander but I suspect it will be appearing in the 99 of Adeliz and Inalla more often that helming a deck. Still, any card that might allow one to cheat out Enter the Infinite or Expropriate ahead of schedule is of interest. The failrate is a Storm Crow that's also a mana dork which is super reasonable right?

Anticognition: This is probably terrible; Revolutionary Rebuff is really bad in Commander and Exclude isn't even that good, but I do get excited by any 2 CMC counter that can potentially have a ton of value attached. Only needing "an opponent" and not "that card's controller" to have 8 cards in the graveyard is a very low threshold to clear. May be worth a look for a deck like Talrand or Baral that wants a high density of counterspells, or a mill deck.

We also got a whole slew of modal land cards while I was writing this, and Bala Ged Recovery seems really good. Recollect that can be a land is a fine card. I am especially excited about adding it to a deck like Phelddagrif to drive the land count higher while also having a "real" spell for the endgame.

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Post by WizardMN » 7 months ago

Hawk wrote:
7 months ago
Ashaya, Soul of the Wild: This card breaks my brain a bit. I can't decide if it is amazing (it's a huge fatty that is also a Cryptolith Rite and that makes you immune to Cyclonic Rift!) or terrible (if someone casts Blood Moon I don't know what happens but it seems disastrous). I think on balance it is pretty good.
I wanted to call this out because this question has come up approximately a billion times this morning:

Under normal circumstances, Ashaya becomes a Mountain from Blood Moon (its own ability applies first since Blood Moon is dependent on it) and when turning into a Mountain it remains a creature. However, it loses its CDA setting its Power/Toughness so it just dies. Now that it is gone, its effect no longer applies and things move on happily. No brain breaking in sight :)

If Ashaya somehow survives due to a counter or anthem effect, her ability just keeps applying so all your creatures are now Land Creature - Mountain <creature type> that lose all abilities and can tap for Red mana.

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Post by NZB2323 » 7 months ago

Sejiri shelter seems really good to me. I can't tell if I should add it to my Captain Sisay deck or not.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 7 months ago

It also goes in Feather, I think.

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Post by Hawk » 7 months ago

I'm a little more skeptical of Sejiri Shelter myself. I'd be more inclined to run, well, Shelter and probably also Gods Willing in a deck like Feather, the Redeemed or Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest.

A monocolored tapland is still really bad imo. In the last 5 years I've gone from "every deck runs all on-color cycling lands" to "I rarely run cycling lands" - I currently am only rocking them in really slow control decks like Pheldagriff, or decks they are on-theme for like The Gitrog Monster. For me the modal cards are going to be comparable or significantly better than an existing card that's on the fringe. Bala Ged Recovery, for instance, is strictly better than Recollect and not hideously worse than Regrowth, which is a considerable upside. Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge has no direct comparison in red; it's sort of a colorshifted cantripping Tolarian Winds. I'd run that card naturally in a deck like Daretti so the land half is again all upside. For Sejiri Shelter, I feel like the front side is significantly worse than those two effects and probably also worse than stuff like Ajani's Presence or Sheltering Light or Boros Charm. and most decks that would want such an effect are low-to-the ground aggressive builds where cutting a basic for a tapland is a risky proposition.

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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

Nighthawk Scavenger is an interesting Vampire Nighthawk upgrade, for the decks that want that sort of effect. More of a limited/standard thing, but has some potential for keyword tribal decks.
Bala Ged Recovery looks quite good - Recollect // tapland seems pretty reasonable. I don't know if I would run it over Regrowth, but it's certainly interesting if you want a second copy.
Ashaya, Soul of the Wild is very sweet. Turbo-charges landfall, generates a ton of mana, and protects from any nonland removal like Cyclonic Rift. I'm sure there are also a bunch of other implications I'm missing.
Kaza Roil Chaser looks fun - Mizzix of the Izmagnus meets wizard tribal. A bit trickier to build, and probably not as much of a ceiling, but also ramps up faster and is cheaper.
Taborax, Hope's Demise is another cleric tribal support card / commander. I suspect Orah, Skyclave Hierophant will see more play due to the second color, but options are good.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 7 months ago

I can see Bala Ged Recovery becoming a staple outside high-tier play. The opportunity cost is not super high - you downgrade one of your basics to a tap land. And this spell actually does something, for an acceptable cost too. I'll need to consider its inclusion in some of my decks. If a list can survive the putative tempo hit, this is not that bad an option.

On a related note, as a Feather player, I can attest I have no interest in Sejiri Shelter. The deck's not a fan of taplands, simple as that.
 
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Post by Guardman » 7 months ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
7 months ago
However, as a Feather player, I can attest I have no interest in Sejiri Shelter.
I agree, for Commander at least. In Historic I plan to run it simply because it because it prevents flooding, while upping the land count (since the deck wants 4-5 lands and no more). In commander though, Gods Willing is better (cheaper with scry), and even then it isn't that great compared to other choices.

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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

soul shatter looks real strong. Crackling Doom outside of mardu. Toshiro Umezawa is especially pleased.
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