Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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5colorsrainbow
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 8 months ago

Cyberium wrote:
8 months ago
Partner legends tend to be slightly weaker than non-partner ones (save some exceptions). I was hoping for mono-color non-partner legends that are strong enough by themselves. Perhaps some of them will be, but with the partner clause it's unlikely anyone would use them for mono-color decks.

Hopefully there will be cards that'd boost mono-color decks in this set.
You can always use the same color partners for a mono-color deck, its something I'm gonna be looking at since I been looking for ideas for mono-colored commanders.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 8 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
8 months ago
I mean, do you draft?
This is a commander multiplayer draft. Making a deck of you most efficient commons from your best two color colors won't be as nearly as effective as it would be in a normal draft.
I bet that people who will open a good build-around-me legend on pack 1 and commit to it will win.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
8 months ago
This is a commander multiplayer draft. Making a deck of you most efficient commons from your best two color colors won't be as nearly as effective as it would be in a normal draft.
I bet that people who will open a good build-around-me legend on pack 1 and commit to it will win.
I think the other case you're missing is that sometimes you'll have a bomb-level partner but no one to pair it with. Sengir and Halana both look really strong in a limited environment to me and I'm sure there will be others even more powerful - but if you're not getting passed those colors, especially if you pick them up in pack 2 when you weren't in that color already, it could easily be worth running a junky partner to ensure you've got a playable deck. I could also imagine having a decent 2-color commander and a piper in your pool, then opening a bomb partner in P3 that's mono-colored in one of them. The piper fills in that gap in lieu of a better option. Is it a first choice? No, definitely not, but limited isn't about first choices, it's about working with what you've got and piper is a flexible fallback if better things don't work out.

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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

Just to clear up a thing re: the Piper - They've specifically mentioned that you don't even have to draft one, it's considered a "basic legend" ala basic lands, so you can just grab one from the table if you need it. It's also not something that comes up often, since you're pretty likely to end up with an appropriate partner legend even if you do swap mid pack 2 or whatever.

I really like the idea of mono color partner legends, both because it's a great solution for the draft issue of not being able to swap colors midstream, and because it opens up the cool possibility of mono color partner decks. It's a little disappointing that so many legends are going to be limited by having to be balanced as partners, but Sengir, the Dark Baron does show that they're willing to push into interesting space even with that restriction.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
Just to clear up a thing re: the Piper - They've specifically mentioned that you don't even have to draft one, it's considered a "basic legend" ala basic lands, so you can just grab one from the table if you need it. It's also not something that comes up often, since you're pretty likely to end up with an appropriate partner legend even if you do swap mid pack 2 or whatever.
That's really interesting, kinda makes sense to avoid situations where people are completely stuck just through bad luck though. Is there a written source for that info, or is it from the livestream?

EDIT: since no one has really talked about them in detail:

Sengir, the Dark Baron - potentially game-winning with some of the exclusionary wipes like Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Duneblast, Tragic Arrogance, etc, or just good old fashioned grave pact shenanigans. He potentially grows very fast, and gaining 30 life if you knock someone out is nice too. That said, a big fat flier doesn't really excite me.

Alena, Kessig Trapper - ability worries me the most of the four partners, since it's similar to selvala, who is a jerk. Putting that on a partner seems risky. On the other hand, 5cmc and a pretty major restriction timing-wise, so this might take more work to pull off. As far as my personal interest, eh, playing big creatures isn't usually my thing.

Halana, Kessig Ranger - doesn't look busted by any means, but it looks like a solid ability. Turning random deathtouchers into removal spells is sweet, and she even works with tokens. Partner with Silas Renn, Seeker Adept? Easily the one I'm most interested in.

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Post by Wallycaine » 8 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
Wallycaine wrote:
8 months ago
Just to clear up a thing re: the Piper - They've specifically mentioned that you don't even have to draft one, it's considered a "basic legend" ala basic lands, so you can just grab one from the table if you need it. It's also not something that comes up often, since you're pretty likely to end up with an appropriate partner legend even if you do swap mid pack 2 or whatever.
That's really interesting, kinda makes sense to avoid situations where people are completely stuck just through bad luck though. Is there a written source for that info, or is it from the livestream?

EDIT: since no one has really talked about them in detail:

Sengir, the Dark Baron - potentially game-winning with some of the exclusionary wipes like Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Duneblast, Tragic Arrogance, etc, or just good old fashioned grave pact shenanigans. He potentially grows very fast, and gaining 30 life if you knock someone out is nice too. That said, a big fat flier doesn't really excite me.

Alena, Kessig Trapper - ability worries me the most of the four partners, since it's similar to selvala, who is a jerk. Putting that on a partner seems risky. On the other hand, 5cmc and a pretty major restriction timing-wise, so this might take more work to pull off. As far as my personal interest, eh, playing big creatures isn't usually my thing.

Halana, Kessig Ranger - doesn't look busted by any means, but it looks like a solid ability. Turning random deathtouchers into removal spells is sweet, and she even works with tokens. Partner with Silas Renn, Seeker Adept? Easily the one I'm most interested in.
Gavin talks about it on twitter, here's one of the times:

The legends definitely seem interesting overall. Alena needing a creature to ETB to generate any mana at all is a pretty huge limiting factor. Oddly, makes Rite of the Raging Storm a potiential all star for her, since it ensures her ability gets turned on during upkeep, and for more than the typical 1-2 most token generators could guarantee. Additional interesting thought: Her ability checks the creature as it exists now on the battlefield, not as it existed when it etbs, so there's probably shenanigans to be done with firebreathing esque abilities if you can untap her.

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Post by Hermes_ » 7 months ago

Looks like kicker is back and on a PW for ZNR
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

After a long time spent figuring out what her deal was, seems like nahiri is finally back to her first loves: kor tokens and equipment.

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Post by Mookie » 7 months ago

Both Jace and Nahiri look perfectly reasonable.

Jace is a cheap draw engine, especially if you have some topdeck manipulation to stop him from losing too much loyalty (or can just spend the time to use his (+1)). Token Jace is a nice bonus to draw more cards, or to do scrying to set up real Jace. I don't think that he is a particularly powerful planeswalker in EDH, but he's an efficient enough draw engine that I wouldn't bat an eye at seeing him.

Meanwhile, Nahiri looks like good support for Boros equipment (and Warrior) decks. Hard for me to say what the necessary density to consistently hit with her (-2) is though - I suspect you'll also need to be running a lot of warriors to hit consistently. On the other hand, her other modes compare reasonably to Nahiri, the Lithomancer - token production (and free equips) are good, while a bit of incidental removal is also never bad. Lack of an ultimate also means she may draw a bit less hate too.

Kicker returning is fine to see - it's an open enough mechanic that it doesn't have any inherent synergy with most decks, and needs to be carried entirely by the quality of its individual spells. It is often more of a limited mechanic (to serve as a mana sink for lategame), but there have been some strong EDH cards printed with it - Rite of Replication and Comet Storm most notably, but I'm also a fan of Sadistic Sacrament. I'd be happy to see some more 'playable early, but splashy kicker if you have a ton of mana' cards.

(I will hope that Landfall also returns though... although given that I've been wanting to make a Tayam, Luminous Enigma landfall deck, it may be a good idea for me to pick up some landfall.dec staples before they start to spike)

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 7 months ago

Wow I really appreciate the design of Valakut Awakening / Valakut Stoneforge. Designing interesting mechanics into lands without being overpowered is really nice. Some of the worst part of this game is how land flood / screw affects the game so in my mind cool lands that can serve as utility really do add in nicely. It means that we can potentially push our land counts up or down while having useful and effective spells as an alternate use for them.

I really do have to say that right now, while I haven't played against them I am quite impressed with this design. Maybe that will change after I see them everywhere but I really do think they did a good job on this design. Well done WoTc.
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Post by Cyberium » 7 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
7 months ago
Wow I really appreciate the design of Valakut Awakening / Valakut Stoneforge. Designing interesting mechanics into lands without being overpowered is really nice. Some of the worst part of this game is how land flood / screw affects the game so in my mind cool lands that can serve as utility really do add in nicely. It means that we can potentially push our land counts up or down while having useful and effective spells as an alternate use for them.

I really do have to say that right now, while I haven't played against them I am quite impressed with this design. Maybe that will change after I see them everywhere but I really do think they did a good job on this design. Well done WoTc.
I want to see other land-spells before deciding if this is overpowered. I can see the use of Valakut Awakening in a Boros deck where you replacing all the lands you get from Land Tax and Scroll Rack and replace them with draws.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 7 months ago

Yea, they could still screw it up and make something crazy OP but just talking from a design concept, I think its a good design. Lots of players who have compared magic to newer TCGS have mentioned that almost every other TCG in modern day has removed the RNG of resource generation because drawing all lands or no lands is not the fun part of magic. Giving something as flexible as a spell or a land makes the consistency of drawing action much better.

From strictly a design perspective, I think this is positive. It might get annoying after we get our hands on it but mitigating land screw / flood by means of spell lands is kind of a step up for me.
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Post by Hawk » 7 months ago

My first thought on Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge was "OMGBEST CARD EVER!" and I immediately wanted like 10 for all my Rx decks. Taking a moment to think about it - it's definitely stronger than a Forgotten Cave but I'm not sure it's "infinitely" stronger. It's neat design though, and I'm excited to see more of it.

I'm super frustrated by the Pathways (Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway et al) mostly because we only get six of them now. I mean it's fine - in terms of power level I'm not sure how to rate them. For a 2-color deck I think these are the 5th best lands (after the Battlebond lands, Fetchlands, Shocks, and OG Duals) but they do get significantly worse for 3+ color decks and they are more "side-grade" to the Filterlands and Checklands and Battle-Tango lands than strict upgrades even in 2C decks - in particular, for green-based decks, these are worse than the Tangos as well since you can't Farseek or Nature's Lore them. Still want them, still annoyed to have another cycle that will take years for them to finish.

So far, nothing else screams to me. None of the legends tickle me. I think the "Party" mechanic is really fun and flavorful (playing DnD and watching Critical Role a lot during my extended quarantine) but can't imagine it being awesome for Commander. Tazri, Beacon of Hope isn't even that great a payoff, especially since the rules specifically forbid using changelings and Tajura Paragon to make a full party of one. Coveted Prize actually is a good payoff but as one card in the 99, it is not that reliable.

EDIT: Confounding Conundrum is a huge deal to the format though. Close to zero opportunity cost since it cantrips, and a way to absolutely wreck ramp decks that isn't like mass-LD. Sad thing is that it is not symmetrical, so the best way to use this is to put it in a GU deck (since they needed the help :thinking: ) where you ramp like crazy while grinding opponents to a total halt.

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Post by Wallycaine » 7 months ago

Hawk wrote:
7 months ago
I'm super frustrated by the Pathways (Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway et al) mostly because we only get six of them now. I mean it's fine - in terms of power level I'm not sure how to rate them. For a 2-color deck I think these are the 5th best lands (after the Battlebond lands, Fetchlands, Shocks, and OG Duals) but they do get significantly worse for 3+ color decks and they are more "side-grade" to the Filterlands and Checklands and Battle-Tango lands than strict upgrades even in 2C decks - in particular, for green-based decks, these are worse than the Tangos as well since you can't Farseek or Nature's Lore them. Still want them, still annoyed to have another cycle that will take years for them to finish.
Official word is that the other four are coming "very soon". How exactly they're going to pull that off is a question mark, but I'm doubtful "very soon" means we'll be waiting years to finish the cycle.

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Post by Hawk » 7 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
7 months ago
Hawk wrote:
7 months ago
I'm super frustrated by the Pathways (Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway et al) mostly because we only get six of them now. I mean it's fine - in terms of power level I'm not sure how to rate them. For a 2-color deck I think these are the 5th best lands (after the Battlebond lands, Fetchlands, Shocks, and OG Duals) but they do get significantly worse for 3+ color decks and they are more "side-grade" to the Filterlands and Checklands and Battle-Tango lands than strict upgrades even in 2C decks - in particular, for green-based decks, these are worse than the Tangos as well since you can't Farseek or Nature's Lore them. Still want them, still annoyed to have another cycle that will take years for them to finish.
Official word is that the other four are coming "very soon". How exactly they're going to pull that off is a question mark, but I'm doubtful "very soon" means we'll be waiting years to finish the cycle.
Innistrad has had flips every visit and we are returning there next fall. These are also neutral enough to in-theory appear anywhere, and I can see "Transform" being hugely important, flavor-wise, to a "Magical School" set as well as totally feasible for a DnD Core Set. Hopefully we do get them next year.

I am a bit saddened to be more excited about next year than I am for this set. Viking World and Hogwarts World are both awesome-sounding, Time Spiral Remastered could be cool, Innistrad is always a blast. There's still ~200 cards to see though and I have a Landfall deck so I'm sure something will grab my attention. There's also a rumor that Shadowborn Apostle is getting a reprint, which might allow me to acquire enough to make Athreos Apostles with a Cleric Tribal subtheme (supported by new cards including Orah, Conclave Hierophant.

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Post by 3drinks » 7 months ago

So if you know my stance on ramp, you know my feelings on this card. Why is it U though. -_- Shoulda been B as a second coming of Tainted Aether, with aa sacrifice clause instead of bounce clause.

Side note: why have I not added tainted to Korvald to smash the synergy in to the dirt...
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 7 months ago

I am fine with the effect of Confounding Conundrum, but I am not really sure why it should be so cheap AND cantrip. When it comes to hate strategies I would personally prefer for someone to have to have a little more investment to run them. I guess what I am getting at is like, if you could get a Cursed Totem with an ETB cantrip, I would be kind of annoyed with it. I think its important that things take up some level of space to run them. When we get cheap hate cards with etb cantrip it makes me feel like they belong everywhere. I just think its should have cost more mana, or not cantrip offhand.
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Post by materpillar » 7 months ago

Confounding Conundrum looks like an extremely healthy check on ramp cards. My initial thought is that I'm a super big fan of it.

I love my changeling tribal deck and I'm hoping for some super cool Party cards! Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate actually might be good enough. The deck is so creature heavy that any wrath protection is super valuable. My instinct is that Tazri, Beacon of Unity isn't good enough. Similarly Spoils of Adventure looks cool but probably not good enough. I think full party cards are going to be really hard to assemble even with a deck full of changelings. None the less I'm very excited.

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Post by Serenade » 7 months ago

I figured it would be white or red to harken back to their land-hating days.
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Post by materpillar » 7 months ago

Oh my, I just saw Orah, Skyclave Hierophant and Zareth San, the Trickster. Making cuts in my changeling deck is just becoming more and more impossible. I'm not sure either of these are actually strong enough... but it might be time for Higure, the Still Wind. I'll have to ponder this some.
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Post by Hawk » 7 months ago

materpillar wrote:
7 months ago
Confounding Conundrum looks like an extremely healthy check on ramp cards. My initial thought is that I'm a super big fan of it.

I love my changeling tribal deck and I'm hoping for some super cool Party cards! Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate actually might be good enough. The deck is so creature heavy that any wrath protection is super valuable. My instinct is that Tazri, Beacon of Unity isn't good enough. Similarly Spoils of Adventure looks cool but probably not good enough. I think full party cards are going to be really hard to assemble even with a deck full of changelings. None the less I'm very excited.
I dunno - by base, Spoils is a Sphinx's Revelation with X=3. If you control 3 changelings/have a party of 3, this is better than Distant Melody and is arguably better than Melody up until you control like 6+ changelings since the raw tempo of three cards for UW at instant speed is no joke.

I do agree that Tazri feels really slow and awkward, and most "full party" effects aren't good enough - Linvala is mostly flying into decks as a slightly better Dauntless Escort as her other text is an unreasonable amount of setup for basically a Martial Law and I suspect that Coveted Prize is too slow and gimmicky.

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Post by Mr_Webman » 7 months ago

Confounding Conundrum seems like a very good hate card against land-based ramp decks, but it really shouldn't have been . As someone said earlier, the fact that it's not symmetrical means U/G ramp decks can take advantage of it which I'm not a huge fan of. It should have been at the very least.

I'm not sure how I feel about the new dual "flip lands". They may be really good or really bad or somewhere in-between; I honestly have no idea. Do you only get to play the other side when you have it in your hand? Is one side the default side like other transform cards?

Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge seems good and I can't wait to see the other cards of the cycle. Nowadays, lands that enter tapped need to have a pretty big upside to be playable and these seem to fit the bill (depending how far they push the others).

Flavor-wise, I love DnD so the party mechanic makes me giggle. Gameplay-wise, I don't like it much at all. The new Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate is a prime example of this. How often are you really going to have a full party? Unless they make some cards that give you pretty significant rewards for having a full party or make it easy to fulfill it, I don't see the mechanic going anywhere. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
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Post by Sinis » 7 months ago

Mr_Webman wrote:
7 months ago
How often are you really going to have a full party?
I don't know man, I was thinking of making Morophon Party tribal.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 7 months ago

Mr_Webman wrote:
7 months ago
I'm not sure how I feel about the new dual "flip lands". They may be really good or really bad or somewhere in-between; I honestly have no idea. Do you only get to play the other side when you have it in your hand? Is one side the default side like other transform cards?
From my understanding you play either side of the card from hand. Everywhere outside of play it is always considered the front side of the card. That is what I heard at least.
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Post by 3drinks » 7 months ago

You misunderstand lol. I hate the rampant abuse of ramp decks and I'm with this card. I'm just annoyed it's in U and not B.
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