Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@DirkGently I'm picking up what you're putting down, but I wonder if an extra 2/3 tacked to each member of a wildly underpowered tribe is really as big of a bonus as you're estimating.

For example, you're at a table with Kykar, korvold and this minotaur man, are you really worried about this guy? I mean, a lot has to go wrong before the hurloon general can ever punch up beyond a 7 or so, 5-10 extra 2/3's be damned.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

I'm not complaining about power level. I don't think he's particularly strong. I just think it's kind of a dumb way to enable a tribe. And that tribal is a boring deck to build, especially when the commander is the only thing making it work.

Edit: for the record, Zurzoth, Chaos Rider is much more interesting design imo. You could play him tribal, but you don't have to, could trigger him lots of ways.

Also I thought we got 37 new cards? Aren't we up to 38 now? What's going on?
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Cyberium
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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

Edit: for the record, Zurzoth, Chaos Rider is much more interesting design imo. You could play him tribal, but you don't have to, could trigger him lots of ways.
Same reason I love Varina, Lich Queen, a versatile legend will always have more potential..

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

I like Zurzoth, Chaos Rider design as well. It can be a more controlled Kami of the Crescent Moon, but the random discard element means that you can make opponents sweat, especially those that are trying to assemble combos.
If you get to the stage that you are discarding 3 cards at random, then realistically you want a pretty intensive use of your graveyard as a resource.
Well look at that I just convinced myself to make a brew.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

Doubling season for +1/+1 counters. That's gonna be played.

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Post by WWolfe » 1 year ago

Yea, Branching Evolution will be going in my Skullbriar deck.

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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

this set hits like something that only works if you buy a whole box? certain booster categories are gonna naturallly become the "chase" ones!

i'm liking a lot of the reprints and I don't just mean the pricy commander stuff, just a really comfy selection for a reprint set. also I really love that Towering Titan, probably the card I want most from the set although Ormos, Archive Keeper is eye-catching too, could be ridiculous with Arjun, the Shifting Flame in a mill-myself cantrips deck (Thought Scour and the like) and they're both sphinxes which suggests a very particular kind of big-mana Puzzle Box tribal heap, giggle

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
this set hits like something that only works if you buy a whole box? certain booster categories are gonna naturallly become the "chase" ones!
I'm confused about what you mean. How are the "chase" boosters any different than having "chase" mythics and rares normally? You're aware that the outside of the Jumpstart packs doesn't have a label for which booster it is, right?

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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
this set hits like something that only works if you buy a whole box? certain booster categories are gonna naturallly become the "chase" ones!
I'm confused about what you mean. How are the "chase" boosters any different than having "chase" mythics and rares normally? You're aware that the outside of the Jumpstart packs doesn't have a label for which booster it is, right?
tthey don't? I thought part of the idea was that you could consciously mix and match disparate ideas. the gimmick actually stops working for me if this ain't the case.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
this set hits like something that only works if you buy a whole box? certain booster categories are gonna naturallly become the "chase" ones!
I'm confused about what you mean. How are the "chase" boosters any different than having "chase" mythics and rares normally? You're aware that the outside of the Jumpstart packs doesn't have a label for which booster it is, right?
tthey don't? I thought part of the idea was that you could consciously mix and match disparate ideas. the gimmick actually stops working for me if this ain't the case.
Yes, the goal is to mix and match. Let's break it down step by step. The outside of the pack has the Jumpstart booster wrapper. That just says Jumpstart, tells you they've got 20 cards, that sorta thing. Once you have purchased your pack, you can open it. Inside, there's a little card that tells you which "theme" the booster you opened is. So if you purchase 4 packs, you can mix and match those 4 packs to create 2 mini decks. If you want to draft them, you can have everybody open 3 packs, pick one whole pack, pass, and so on. But you don't get to walk up to the counter and say you'd like to buy a unicorn pack, since that would ruin the whole randomness element (caveat: Stores are certainly free to do whatever they want with their opened packs, so it's possible your LGS would sell packs post opening. But it's unlikely)

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Welp, spoilers for Jumpstart finally over. Some fun stuff and interesting build-arounds.

Immolating Gyre is a cheaper Plague Wind / improved Mizzium Mortars, assuming you can get enough instants and sorceries in your graveyard. I'd like to give it a shot in my Kess and Mizzix decks. That said, those decks are also pretty creature-light (as spellslinger decks tend to be), so the asymmetry isn't quite as valuable. So, paying two extra mana for a board wipe over Chain Reaction is sort of eh (to say nothing of Blasphemous Act).

I'm not entirely sold on Branching Evolution. It's definitely going to see play, but I feel like Hardened Scales does the same thing for a lot of decks already. Still, it depends on what sort of things you do with your counters - doubling the size of Marath, Will of the Wild or Ghave, Guru of Spores is pretty solid, and a significant upgrade over Hardened Scales.

Bruvac the Grandiloquent is almost certainly going to be the primary Persistent Petitioners deck.

As for other stuff... lots of solid reprints. I'm also glad that most of the legends are pretty focused in their usage - they're all either one or two colors, and generally require a specific, already-niche tribe to function. I think that's a pretty healthy direction to take if WotC is going to release a bunch of new commanders - empowering niche strategies and interesting build-arounds, instead of open-ended, many-colored value engines. I have seen some complaints re: some of them just drawing cards (which is sort of generic), but there's actually a lot of variety in the payoffs overall.

...I am mildly concerned re: the secondary market price of some of the reprints/new cards though. It feels like they ought to be as rare as a normal rare is, but will probably depend a lot on how much product actually gets opened.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
...I am mildly concerned re: the secondary market price of some of the reprints/new cards though. It feels like they ought to be as rare as a normal rare is, but will probably depend a lot on how much product actually gets opened.
I think it's a bit weird they've lumped such strong reprints in this set tbh. It's great that this stuff is seeing printing again but it feels like the wrong kind of product for them. The whole concept is grab a couple boosters, shuffle up and play, right? Well, what happens when you shuffle up, play out your Oracle of Mul Daya or Rhystic Study and your opponent has no fire reprints in the deck at all. A thrashing, that's what. It's probably dependent of the amount of printings, but looking at the decklists WotC released a few days back some of the decks are pretty skewed with great value, while others have very little. It just seems a bit shortsighted for what seems to be designed as a set to introduce people to the game, or transition people from similar things like Smash Up/Keyforge.

I guess as far as this format goes it's a moot point, most of us will just pick up singles where we can or buy sealed product purely for the chance of ripping some value, but it does seem at least a little strange. I guess by comparison some of the reprints in Core 2021 are pretty bold choices too. Azusa, Lost but Seeking heading into a return to Zendikar, notorious for the landfall mechanic seems nuts to me, but what do I know about standard?
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
...I am mildly concerned re: the secondary market price of some of the reprints/new cards though. It feels like they ought to be as rare as a normal rare is, but will probably depend a lot on how much product actually gets opened.
I think it's a bit weird they've lumped such strong reprints in this set tbh. It's great that this stuff is seeing printing again but it feels like the wrong kind of product for them. The whole concept is grab a couple boosters, shuffle up and play, right? Well, what happens when you shuffle up, play out your Oracle of Mul Daya or Rhystic Study and your opponent has no fire reprints in the deck at all. A thrashing, that's what. It's probably dependent of the amount of printings, but looking at the decklists WotC released a few days back some of the decks are pretty skewed with great value, while others have very little. It just seems a bit shortsighted for what seems to be designed as a set to introduce people to the game, or transition people from similar things like Smash Up/Keyforge.
I'm not really seeing how Oracle of Mul Daya or Rhystic Study turns a limited game into a "thrashing". In fact, I think there's a fair argument that in a heads up limited game, Rhystic study is actually pretty bad. There's a lot of "bad value" cards that are bombs in this sort of format, and a lot of high value cards that are kinda duds.

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
...I am mildly concerned re: the secondary market price of some of the reprints/new cards though. It feels like they ought to be as rare as a normal rare is, but will probably depend a lot on how much product actually gets opened.
I think it's a bit weird they've lumped such strong reprints in this set tbh. It's great that this stuff is seeing printing again but it feels like the wrong kind of product for them. The whole concept is grab a couple boosters, shuffle up and play, right? Well, what happens when you shuffle up, play out your Oracle of Mul Daya or Rhystic Study and your opponent has no fire reprints in the deck at all. A thrashing, that's what. It's probably dependent of the amount of printings, but looking at the decklists WotC released a few days back some of the decks are pretty skewed with great value, while others have very little. It just seems a bit shortsighted for what seems to be designed as a set to introduce people to the game, or transition people from similar things like Smash Up/Keyforge.

I guess as far as this format goes it's a moot point, most of us will just pick up singles where we can or buy sealed product purely for the chance of ripping some value, but it does seem at least a little strange. I guess by comparison some of the reprints in Core 2021 are pretty bold choices too. Azusa, Lost but Seeking heading into a return to Zendikar, notorious for the landfall mechanic seems nuts to me, but what do I know about standard?
I mean lets face it this is a commander product. You could have literally made this the Commander 2020 release this year and nobody would have bat an eyelid.
How many boosters will be sold off the back of new people wanting to get into the game? Not as many as commander players will be buying a box that is for damn sure.
You might get quite a few commander players also just buying a few boosters every so often to actually play against friends, with the upside that you might get that lottery Rhystic Study or Oracle of Mul Daya.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

darrenhabib wrote:
1 year ago
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
...I am mildly concerned re: the secondary market price of some of the reprints/new cards though. It feels like they ought to be as rare as a normal rare is, but will probably depend a lot on how much product actually gets opened.
I think it's a bit weird they've lumped such strong reprints in this set tbh. It's great that this stuff is seeing printing again but it feels like the wrong kind of product for them. The whole concept is grab a couple boosters, shuffle up and play, right? Well, what happens when you shuffle up, play out your Oracle of Mul Daya or Rhystic Study and your opponent has no fire reprints in the deck at all. A thrashing, that's what. It's probably dependent of the amount of printings, but looking at the decklists WotC released a few days back some of the decks are pretty skewed with great value, while others have very little. It just seems a bit shortsighted for what seems to be designed as a set to introduce people to the game, or transition people from similar things like Smash Up/Keyforge.

I guess as far as this format goes it's a moot point, most of us will just pick up singles where we can or buy sealed product purely for the chance of ripping some value, but it does seem at least a little strange. I guess by comparison some of the reprints in Core 2021 are pretty bold choices too. Azusa, Lost but Seeking heading into a return to Zendikar, notorious for the landfall mechanic seems nuts to me, but what do I know about standard?
I mean lets face it this is a commander product. You could have literally made this the Commander 2020 release this year and nobody would have bat an eyelid.
How many boosters will be sold off the back of new people wanting to get into the game? Not as many as commander players will be buying a box that is for damn sure.
You might get quite a few commander players also just buying a few boosters every so often to actually play against friends, with the upside that you might get that lottery Rhystic Study or Oracle of Mul Daya.
I guess that kind of what I was trying to get at. They either missed the mark in terms of whom they were trying to sell units for or they just didn't really care if the product was used for it's intended purpose or not.

Yet again another moot point though; there really are a crap ton of releases per year at this point, so it probably doesn't overly matter what the intended purpose was, it was always going to get picked apart by other formats for staples. In that respect it probably isn't that much different to standard legal releases I guess.
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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

after scouring the entire M21 list I pre-ordered a Barrin and a Jolrael; it seems like cardmarket folks have decided they won't be worth anything, or rather their standard frame versions won't.

On one level I really like a lot of these cards and I would have placed an actual sizable order (the shrines are cool, Tef's Tutelage rules, I'd love a Scavenging Ooze and some more temples), but so many of them feel like versions of my old favourites with all the difficulties removed, just a bunch of bonusy cards, planeswalker worship everywhere, randomly there's an indestructible Mogg Maniac and almost nothing has a disadvantage? Not my kinda trend and it makes me wonder why things have to be so automatic.

I really miss the Phyrexians lol

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

I just realized that Basri's Lieutenant has protection from multicolored, which includes Reyhan, Last of the Abzan.

F#%*@

May still be worth it. He doesn't say 'non-token', so if I have a Master Biomancer or Cathars' Crusade and a sac outlet I can go infinite.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
so many of them feel like versions of my old favourites with all the difficulties removed, just a bunch of bonusy cards, planeswalker worship everywhere, randomly there's an indestructible Mogg Maniac and almost nothing has a disadvantage? Not my kinda trend and it makes me wonder why things have to be so automatic.
It's a core set, things tend to be relatively simple.

That said, this set hardly feels pushed (outside of the red mythics). The indestructible mogg maniac costs 2.5x what the original cost. That's its disadvantage.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by ChaosNomad » 1 year ago

GloriousGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Oubliette reprint!
I think the most interesting thing is how the wording changes Oubilette, it now locks out commanders. It's interesting, I always like having one or two ways in my decks to prevent opponents from replaying their commanders.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

ChaosNomad wrote:
1 year ago
GloriousGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Oubliette reprint!
I think the most interesting thing is how the wording changes Oubilette, it now locks out commanders. It's interesting, I always like having one or two ways in my decks to prevent opponents from replaying their commanders.
I was so excited to be able to build MBC in Pauper in paper that I completely overlooked this. This functional change along with the two black mana pips makes it very playable in Erebos. Excellent.

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Post by SocorroTortoise » 1 year ago

I'm glad to see Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter getting a foil printing after a decade. One of my favorite commanders in those colors. Endless Atlas is another notable first foil printing for all of the magpies out there who are into mono-colored decks.
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 1 year ago

^ Same idea, but for me it's Crop Rotation and the promo art of Reclamation Sage getting foils that's making me happy. Come on, Constant Mists :)
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Post by Inkeyes22 » 1 year ago

SocorroTortoise wrote:
1 year ago
I'm glad to see Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter getting a foil printing after a decade. One of my favorite commanders in those colors. Endless Atlas is another notable first foil printing for all of the magpies out there who are into mono-colored decks.
I was really confused as to why you referrenced Thieving Magpie for a little bit... not gonna lie.

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Post by Dragonlover » 1 year ago

Sanity_Eclipse wrote:
1 year ago
Come on, Constant Mists
You mis-spelled Moment's Peace. I've been waiting for a foil reprint of that card for yonks. Also *of course* they reprint Crop Rotation a few months after I dropped the cash for a foil Urza's copy, the bastards.

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