Unreleased and New Card Discussion

umtiger
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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

Yatsufusa wrote:
1 year ago
First the death trigger changes allows me to have a easier time to sac Ryusei, the Falling Star, recast and sac again for 40 as long as I had Repercussion and Furnace of Rath/Dictate of the Twin Gods without having to need Grim Lavamancer/Relic of Progenitus.

Now with Fiery Emancipation, I don't even need to recast, 45 to the dome as long as they all had a non-flying creature. Or I could just 117 Blasphemous Act per creature...
So how reliably are you getting that Repercussion each game? :laugh: You also played Gratuitous Violence?

I really like the damage tripler as well.

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Post by Guardman » 1 year ago

umtiger wrote:
1 year ago
Yatsufusa wrote:
1 year ago
First the death trigger changes allows me to have a easier time to sac Ryusei, the Falling Star, recast and sac again for 40 as long as I had Repercussion and Furnace of Rath/Dictate of the Twin Gods without having to need Grim Lavamancer/Relic of Progenitus.

Now with Fiery Emancipation, I don't even need to recast, 45 to the dome as long as they all had a non-flying creature. Or I could just 117 Blasphemous Act per creature...
So how reliably are you getting that Repercussion each game? :laugh: You also played Gratuitous Violence?

I really like the damage tripler as well.
Well there is also the new Stuffy Doll, Brash Taunter and the OG Stuffy Doll Mogg Maniac, so I assume that it probably isn't that hard to assemble everything, especially now with so much redundacy for everything.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

New Kaervek! My...2nd or 3rd favourite commander!

Kaervek, the Spiteful

Yeah I'm never playing that lol. How boring.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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UnfulfilledDesires
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WWolfe
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Post by WWolfe » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
New Kaervek! My...2nd or 3rd favourite commander!

Kaervek, the Spiteful

Yeah I'm never playing that lol. How boring.
Yea, I had heard that there was a new Kaervek and I was excited, now I'm very sad.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

WWolfe wrote:
1 year ago
Yea, I had heard that there was a new Kaervek and I was excited, now I'm very sad.
I mean, I just got Fiery Emancipation and the Grim Tutor reprint for my kaervek deck, so I can't really complain. Honestly just about anything that wasn't somehow just Kaervek 1.0 but better wouldn't have been very useful to me anyway. But I wanted to believe. I wanted to believe so bad.

Legends seem pretty tame so far. Personally I'm fine with that general trend. Ikoria had way too much new stuff to handle.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by WWolfe » 1 year ago

Yea, I'm loving Fiery Emancipation for my OG Purphoros deck, I guess I was just hoping for a Kaervek that could be a new general to build around. I use to have an OG Kaervek deck but I took it apart after several years of playing it. Maybe I'll just rebuild it instead.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Some more interesting things revealed. I feel like I usually run out of things to talk about at this point in the preview season, but there are still more sweet things.
  • Terror of the Peaks looks very nice for Animar. I've wanted to run Warstorm Surge in the deck before, but I really don't have space for a 6 mana noncreature. Getting on the effect on a creature instead is a huge upside. It does expose it to more removal, but the life cost means opponents will at least think twice about it. Somewhat interesting that it's life loss and not a triggered ability though. Maybe they're templating differently to prevent misclicks? Hmmm...
  • Discontinuity is somewhat interesting. I used to see Time Stop played occasionally, but haven't seen it around as much recently. Don't know if Discontinuity is enough better for it to see more play.
  • Niambi, Esteemed Healer is somewhat interesting. The bounce ability isn't amazing in the command zone - you could return creatures with useful ETB/LTB effects to your hand, but there are better blink commanders. However, the draw ability looks pretty respectable. Not sure what the best way to take advantage of it is though - there aren't a ton of recursive legends in Azorius. Probably will see more play in the 99, where saving other creatures from removal is a bit more relevant.
  • Kaervek, the Spiteful looks like it will see more play in the 99, but it's a very potent hate card for token / small creature decks. I have a few decks that this pretty much entirely shuts down, so hopefully he won't be too popular. Not a ton of great ways to abuse in the command zone though.
  • Watcher of the Spheres is a solid card for any UW flyers deck. Probably more of a cube card though.
  • Brash Taunter is an interesting Stuffy Doll variant that can be a bit more proactive. Three mana is a lot for an activated ability, but it also does a lot of damage.
  • Tolarian Kraken looks like a combo card. My first thought was Selvala, Explorer Returned. Could be sweet for a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician tap/untap deck. Also turns Azami, Lady of Scrolls effects into '1: draw a card', which is pretty potent.

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Terror of the Peaks might get the nod from me over Pandemonium. We'll see.
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 1 year ago

As someone who likes strategies that hate on creatures and doesn't have any particular affection for the original Kaervek printing, Kaervek, the Spiteful is a nice card. Night of Souls' Betrayal is a powerful effect and I'm always glad to see more options along those lines. I like that Kaervek lives through one of those global effects while providing its own as well. I don't like it much as a commander, but I'm expecting to grab it semi-regularly as 1/99.

Brash Taunter looks like a general upgrade for Stuffy Doll in red decks. It's usually going to be around the same floor (1 damage to one opponent per turn cycle) and has a much higher ceiling. It's not a big stretch to think that many decks that want one are going to want both, either. I'm definitely going to run it in Jaya even I don't know yet whether that's going to be alongside or in place of Stuffy.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

now I need to figure out what to cut from the dragon per-con for Terror of the Peaks and Night of Souls' Betrayal can slide in perfectly into my rat deck.

Also, are End the turn effects good?
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Also, are End the turn effects good?
They're sweet. It doesn't matter if they're good.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Also, are End the turn effects good?
They're sweet. It doesn't matter if they're good.
you'd think as a writer,i'd be able to choose the right word, I'm just trying to imagine in what cases,i'd run one of the cards, especially to invoke the "if it's your turn" clause.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
you'd think as a writer,i'd be able to choose the right word, I'm just trying to imagine in what cases,i'd run one of the cards, especially to invoke the "if it's your turn" clause.
If someone hits you with a blowout combat trick, end the turn.
If the person to your left waits til your endstep to flash in a big thing, counter it and end the turn.
If you have triggers that make you sacrifice things (or lose the game) at end of turn, end the turn faster!

Sundial of the Infinite is a funny card people like. This is like a charm that's either Sundial or Time Stop.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Also, are End the turn effects good?
They're sweet. It doesn't matter if they're good.
you'd think as a writer,i'd be able to choose the right word, I'm just trying to imagine in what cases,i'd run one of the cards, especially to invoke the "if it's your turn" clause.
Typically, the best use case for ending your own turn is to avoid some sort of trigger. For example, if you created a token with Geist of Saint Traft, ending the turn with the "exile this token" trigger on the stack means you don't ever have to exile it, so you just get a permanent 4/4 angel. Look for ideas people have around Sundial of the Infinite, if you're looking for a way to abuse that particular aspect of Discontinuity.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

This core set continues to delivery random upgrades. The best part of these upgrades/functional copies is that most of them aren't just power creeping upgrades 100% of the time replace a older, worse card. There's deckbuilding decisions to make instead of pure upgrades. For example, because Terror of the Peaks deals the damage itself, if I swap it for Warstorm Surge in my Riku deck, I'm also dropping Blightsteel Colossus which is mostly there for that specific interaction. None of these cards are strict upgrades. I'm just happy to see this type of functional sidegrades.
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Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | Lavinia | Silumgar | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Kydele & Thrasios | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Gisela | Feather | Osgir | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Vial & Ravos | Marchesa | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Genju | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Golos | Horde | Najeela | Traxos

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

Yeah, this is definitely "Power Creep: The Core Set"

- Discontinuity is strictly better than Time Stop.
- Village Rites is strictly better than Altar's Reap and probably better than Costly Plunder.
- Pestilent Haze is strictly better than Infest (although admittedly, lots of other things are too)
Llanowar Visionary is strictly better than Shaman of Spring
- Frantic Inventory is strictly better than Take Inventory, although that doesn't matter for our format here. It is also generally better than Accumulated Knowledge.


That doesn't even look at stuff like Elder Gargaroth obsoleting a lot of random 5 CMC beatdown dudes, or various vanilla powercreeps. All that sort of underplays how many "basically betters" we have too - Garruk's Uprising isn't strictly better than Elemental Bond, for instance, but I think I'd prefer it 9/10. Ditto Fiery Emancipation versus Gratuitous Violence and Terror of the Peaks versus Warstorm Surge or Pandemonium. Traitorous Greed isn't strictly better than other 4 CMC steal effects but I know which one I'm excited to play. Griffin Aerie isn't strictly better than Angelic Accord but it's probably a lot better in practice.Etc., etc.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Niambi, Esteemed Healer is really great for Ephara. Probably my only foil preorder this set :)

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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
New Kaervek! My...2nd or 3rd favourite commander!

Kaervek, the Spiteful

Yeah I'm never playing that lol. How boring.
I'm disappointed. I wish this Kaervek doesn't exist to me.

They could have saved this effect for as part of the Magus cycle. Or even created a Knight of Souls' Betrayal.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

I was saying that I'm impressed that most of these aren't completely strict upgrades, in my opinion. It's more adding diversity to existing effects, with some deckbuilding considerations when deciding between the two.
old cardnew cardOld ProsNew Pros
Warstorm SurgeTerror of the Peakscreature deals damage, works with lifelink/infectlower CMC, works well with clones
PandemoniumTerror of the Peakslower CMC, uses creature's abilitiesnot symmetric
Time StopDiscontinuityless restrictive color requirementsalternate cost for significant CMC reduction, but situational
Elemental BondGarruk's UprisingTriggers on more creatures due to lower power requirementdraws on EtB, gives trample
Primal RageGarruk's Uprisinglower CMCdraw
Gratuitous ViolenceFiery Emancipationlower CMC3x > 2x, global effect
Stuffy DollBrash Taunterno color requirementdamage selection, better activated ability
Elvish VisionaryLlanowar Visionarylower CMCmanadork
Satyr FiredancerChandra's Incineratorlower CMCcost reduction, broader triggers, and combo potential

Now some of these are swaps that I would make 90% of the time, such as Gratuitous Violence / Fiery Emancipation. However, I'm even more likely to run both in some decks, but the CMC difference from Furnace of Rath makes that swap less assured.

The considerations around Terror of the Peaks and Garruk's Uprising are similar, it depends on the rest of my deck. There are a lot more sources of 3/3 tokens than 4/4 tokens so a token deck making 3/3 tokens might not make that swap unless it's Ghired, Conclave Exile.

That said, in some decks these end up being nearly strict upgrades. I think that they've walk this line fairly well for this set so far.
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Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | Lavinia | Silumgar | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Kydele & Thrasios | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Gisela | Feather | Osgir | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Vial & Ravos | Marchesa | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Genju | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Golos | Horde | Najeela | Traxos

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

Silversmote Ghoul - obviously this is worse than Bloodghast and Gravecrawler - but in a vampire/zombie tribal deck with any amount of lifegain (think Varina), how much worse is it?

A 3/1 body is awful, but it can block unlike the two gold standards. It has its own sac effect too, although you'll likely want to pitch it to Skullclamp or an altar. It can't come back multiple times a turn, but realistically 'ghast wasn't coming back more than once a turn terribly often either.

I think it's definitely going to find its way into Mirri the Cursed vampire tribal, and is questionable but worth testing for Varina, Lich Queen Zombie tribal. I think it'd also be worth a look in most lifegain-heavy decks (Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim for instance), but it won't be the aristocrat staple that 'ghast and 'crawler are. Good card though, especially at uncommon.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Silversmote Ghoul - obviously this is worse than Bloodghast and Gravecrawler - but in a vampire/zombie tribal deck with any amount of lifegain (think Varina), how much worse is it?

A 3/1 body is awful, but it can block unlike the two gold standards. It has its own sac effect too, although you'll likely want to pitch it to Skullclamp or an altar. It can't come back multiple times a turn, but realistically 'ghast wasn't coming back more than once a turn terribly often either.

I think it's definitely going to find its way into Mirri the Cursed vampire tribal, and is questionable but worth testing for Varina, Lich Queen Zombie tribal. I think it'd also be worth a look in most lifegain-heavy decks (Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim for instance), but it won't be the aristocrat staple that 'ghast and 'crawler are. Good card though, especially at uncommon.
Realistically, it won't be blocking often, between only coming back on your end step and coming back tapped. That said, it is a useful bit of utility if you're not gaining the 3 life/sacrificing it every turn.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

Terror of the Peaks looks amazing for both my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck (Dragon tribal) & Hazezon Tamar deck (tokens). I hope the card ends up being affordable.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Silversmote Ghoul - obviously this is worse than Bloodghast and Gravecrawler - but in a vampire/zombie tribal deck with any amount of lifegain (think Varina), how much worse is it?

A 3/1 body is awful, but it can block unlike the two gold standards. It has its own sac effect too, although you'll likely want to pitch it to Skullclamp or an altar. It can't come back multiple times a turn, but realistically 'ghast wasn't coming back more than once a turn terribly often either.

I think it's definitely going to find its way into Mirri the Cursed vampire tribal, and is questionable but worth testing for Varina, Lich Queen Zombie tribal. I think it'd also be worth a look in most lifegain-heavy decks (Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim for instance), but it won't be the aristocrat staple that 'ghast and 'crawler are. Good card though, especially at uncommon.
I'm a big fan of durdley card advantage engines, sacrifice synergies, and recursion, so I definitely like the card. I don't think that the card is necessarily better or worse than Bloodghast and Gravecrawler, just different. It is likely more niche, since not every deck has access to the lifegain necessary to support it... but if you do, then its ability to come back every turn for free is pretty good. Meanwhile, while you may be using it as sac fodder, its ability to cash itself in for a card is also very respectable. I wouldn't say that the card is strong enough to build a deck around.... but if I'm already running a lifegain deck (especially one with sacrifice synergies), I'd definitely consider it.

I'll call out that giving it lifelink is sufficient to recur it, which is a cute interaction.

As for other stuff.... Griffin Aerie and Speaker of the Heavens are both very respectable token producers, assuming you can enable them. Angelic Accord is sort of difficult to turn on, but it's hard for me to say how much of a difference there is between gaining 3 life and 4. Animal Sanctuary is adorable.

Re: power creep - something I'm happy about for M21 is that most of the power creep appears to be focused on niche cards which either don't have a lot of redundancy, or are just at too low of a power level to see play. As a result, it's helping diversify the format, by making those niche strategies and cards more playable, and generally helping decks at lower levels of power that needed help. These cards also generally require some amount of synergy to function, which means you can't just throw them into any deck. Contrast with a card like Arcane Signet or Fierce Guardianship, which is generic enough to just slot into any deck.
In other words: I'm happy that they're power creeping build-arounds, and not staples.

Re: Time Stop effects... they're certainly very powerful. Ending the turn can function as a Time Walk, Fog, Silence, Counterspell, or Stifle. The primary problem with them is that at 6 mana, you're paying a pretty substantial premium. And while having additional flexibility is great, I would say that you're not gaining enough to justify running over a cheaper spell most of the time. You also lose some flexibility, since it can't be used proactively to force your spells through - if you cast some big spell and an opponent attempts to counter, ending the turn will also exile your own spell. Still, it's a very difficult effect to play around, and a blowout pretty much any time it shows up.

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

Silversmote Ghoul with The Great Henge and an Aristocrat effect like Blood Artist to draw two cards each turn.
Nice casual play interaction.

Terror of the Peaks is a bomb really. It doesn't even fight like Gruul Ragebeast triggers and can target planeswalkers and players.
For memes you could play Angel of Jubilation so that Terror of the Peaks can't be targeted :P
I'll find a home for Terror of the Peaks for sure.

Discontinuity is obviously more powerful in dueling situations, as its a 6 mana take an extra turn card if you do it in opponents upkeep.
Makes decks that play Chance for Glory, Final Fortune, Last Chance, Warrior's Oath more viable.

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