Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Hermes_
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Post by Hermes_ » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
it comes from one old bad 90s artfiact with nothing but nostalgia. maybe people use it for yugioh or whatever i dont know but thats old mtg people. mtg people dont just play mtg. people say dome in oter games but it would still look real stupid printed on cards.
so,what word would use in it's place?
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
it comes from one old bad 90s artfiact
I would note that Millstone was a defining archetype for years, and I have fond fond memories of playing against and with it :) The nostalgia is for something that was legitimately a huge part of the history of the game.

People realized they could have their control finisher have almost zero attack surface (not die to creature removal, etc.) and just play 1-for-1 removal spells, pretty defining aspect of the game.

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
sure thats me not the people turning their 90s injokes into rules text that doesnt make any %$#% sense if you werent playing bad cards when artifacts were brown.
BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
it comes from one old bad 90s artfiact with nothing but nostalgia. maybe people use it for yugioh or whatever i dont know but thats old mtg people. mtg people dont just play mtg. people say dome in oter games but it would still look real stupid printed on cards.
I'm not really sure why you have such a strong stance here, I'm really not trying to pick a fight.

"Mill" has been shorthand for "move cards from the top of your library into your graveyard" for literally decades. I'm a little confused as to why you find "move cards from the top of your library into your graveyard" to be better rules text than "mill". Almost every mechanic in the game has a one word name that is shorthand for a bunch of rules text. They print so many "move cards from the top of your library into your graveyard" cards so often that it makes a fair amount of logistical sense to make it "mill" an offical evergreen mechanic.

Here's a cool article on it, just to prove I wasn't BSing you. Read it if you want, ignore it if you don't.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2010-01-11

Back more on topic. Rin and Seri, Inseperable. I've got my changeling deck and I'm very excited to find out they've become this.
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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
no, its gamy and anoying. thats player slang with no flavor and they just stuck it on a card. there were dumbas names for al the other keywords like trolshroud but they replaced them with words that made sense and aded something. now they are just lazy. its pandering.
On the other hand its more than likely that most new players get thrown the phrase "I'll mill the top cards of your library" and then have to ask what that means.
So by just going with the term officially on every new card from now out, it does close down a necessity to explain the slang term. Anything that causes less confusion in Magic I consider a good thing.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 10 months ago

Forget, erase, dement, dirge, silence

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
Forget, erase, dement, dirge, silence
Forget and Erase sound like they are for discarding cards (in fact, "Forget" *is* one of the words they considered).

Dement only really makes sense when talking about the person, not the action taken on the cards so it would need to be something like "dement player for 2 cards" or something which doesn't do a lot.

Depending on how accurate my Google search is, Dirge appears to be a noun (a hymn, or elegy) which doesn't fit with an action.

And Silence doesn't really make sense either. "Silence two cards" sounds more like "choose two cards in their hand and they can't cast them". It reads weird.

Importantly, all of these have the same problem you claim "Mill" does: they don't give any good indication of what the word actually does. Well, Forget and Erase sort of do but, again, sound more in line with cards in hand. Which means that new players still would need to look it up to see what it actually does. Which doesn't solve anything.

I realize Mill as an English word means basically nothing in this context. But as a slang term it means a ton. As already mentioned, a lot of players come across Mill as a slang term and know exactly what it means. And Magic has a lot of its own slang anyway so it likely ends up being a problem that isn't really a problem as the player learns other slang in Magic anyway.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

I'm sure there is a good word but none is going to be as iconic as mill so might as well just forget it :)

at least it ain't flop.

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FoxOfWar
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Post by FoxOfWar » 10 months ago

The thing with 'mill' is that... it's so ingrained in player lexicon that even if another keyword was used... it wouldn't be used. People would still say 'mill', more than likely. (Case in point, the above-linked article talking about the history of mill... is from ten years ago.)

"Forget you for two." "What?" "I mean, mill you for two." "Oh, okay."

Also Pack Leader seems to be right up there with 'cards we need for a cat/dog deck'.

I'm actually kind of surprised a card like Primal Might has not seen print yet. But I approve.

I kinda want to put Bad Deal in a deck just because flavor. "Have I got a deal for you."
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Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile - Ghosty Blinky Anafenza - Nezahal - Big, Blue and HERE! - Gonti Can Afford It - Kazuul, Tyrant of Chandras - Polukranos, More Mana - Azor Takes Flight - A3OS System - Vona Life Pain - Angel With a Whip and Her Pet Fox - Tolsimir Wolf Crusade - Dragonlord Steal & Copy - Arjun, the Mad Flame - Tatyova's Mad Lands - Zegana's Simic - Chainer Does the Value Dance - Polukranos, Unchained - Running Thromok - Sydri's Loco-Inspiraion - Zedruu the Furyhearted - Estrid Land Animation - A Case of Tariel's Persistent F*ckery - Tail of the AristoCat Humanitarian - Karador, Tomb Operator - Tayam Re-Curses - Jeleva... does... things - Sidisi, Death is Served - Omnath, Blink and You're Missing - The Negatiweaver - Breya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs - Ishai and Reyhan Dicepile - Kynaios and Tiro Landfall Impersonations - Tana and Ravos' Regal Gatekeeping - Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation - General Tazri's Utterly Amazing Allies

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Hermes_
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Post by Hermes_ » 10 months ago

The problem with Erase is that it's an exile card, Forget is from the one set we'd all like to forget and it's a discard effect. Silence is also a counter. So those have nothing to do with the library and graveyard.

Hmm Dog/cat tribal.....
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 10 months ago

I didn't post it anywhere, but I was betting that Baneslayer was gonna be the french vanilla mythic. Fun :)

I do like new Liliana, though to be fair I do have a bloody theme deck around her lol. Veil Liliana's same +1 with potential upside, and more targeted removal for her - ability than Veil as well (EDIT: To be fair, I only saw the -X/-X part and not the condition on it. Hmm...). Trades out the backbreaker ultimate for grindy key target value reanimation, so I'm thinking she will be a good fit for said theme deck.

Grim Tutor is quite the stylish reprint. Liking that showcase, mentally twisted bloody tomes of knowledge are kinda my aesthetic.

Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose and Indulging Patrician seem like possibilities for Elenda. Will need to ponder that.

Double Vision is at least interesting, not sure I explicitly have a deck for it though. /shrug. Still kinda cool.

Azusa reprint is welcome, though I have no need of it personally.

Catdog is adorable, though I have no interest in building that. I want more options for a wolf commander though.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
10 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
10 months ago
Chromatic Orrery looks interesting
I definitely want a copy. Spend 2 mana (essentially) to turn all your colorless mana into colored? Sounds busted.
Sounds like Prismatic Omen. A card that sucks.

(Obviously it's not quite as good an effect, but it also can be played much earlier and has some land-type synergies)

Not to say it's a bad card but I really doubt it's busted.

Teferi is interesting. Pretty weak small abilities though.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 10 months ago

prismatic omen is 21 dollars


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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
prismatic omen is 21 dollars
Juzám Djinn is a thousand dollars, but I'm not putting it in my commander decks. Price =/= quality.

Fixing in commander is god-tier already. The main draw of this new card is that it taps for 5 (and since that's all colourless, fixing that mana specifically does make a big difference).

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 10 months ago

just wanted to drop by and congratulate Liliana for receiving her one hundredth planeswalker card!

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 10 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
10 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
prismatic omen is 21 dollars
Juzám Djinn is a thousand dollars, but I'm not putting it in my commander decks. Price =/= quality.

Fixing in commander is god-tier already. The main draw of this new card is that it taps for 5 (and since that's all colourless, fixing that mana specifically does make a big difference).
Hey now, P.O. is the only way to make Last Stand playable and I think time has already shown what an omnipresent format-warping powerhouse that card has become.

Edit: spelling

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
10 months ago
Hey now, P.O. is the only way to make Last Stand playable and I think time has already shown what an omnipresent format-warping powerhouse that card has become.
Lol, true, that is probably the best/funniest way to use the card.

I've never been a fan of spending real resources just to fix mana. If you're playing a 5c deck, but you're relying on a single card to fix your mana that you might not draw, you've got a bad, unreliable deck. If you've got a good manabase, then you shouldn't need anything to fix your mana in the first place.

All this to say: I have no idea why that card is 20 bucks but judging by how people seem to be using it on EDHrec (putting it in 5c decks seemingly for no purpose beyond fixing their mana) that's not a good use of a card. If it was 20 cents I could see sticking it into a bad budget 5c and praying, but if you can spend 20 bucks on a crappy do-nothing you can spread that mana around on some decent budget fixing lands and have a more reliable deck without wasting a card.

I don't even think Chromatic Lantern is a good card if I'm being honest.

That said, this Chromatic Orrery looks good because it's a very large mana rock, so if you want that, it does the job pretty well, even ignoring the fixing. Plus it can draw cards, which is a significant bonus. Mana when you can use it, cards when you can't. If one thing isn't useful, the other one will be.

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Post by gilrad » 10 months ago

I like cards like tidal whale. Little filler cards that help grease your deck up while also offering some solid synergy for decks that want a high creature density (sidisi, blood tyrant), creatures in graveyards (The Scarab God), or just filling the graveyard up without relying on instants or sorceries (Muldrotha, the Gravetide ).

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Post by Treamayne » 10 months ago

materpillar wrote:
10 months ago
Back more on topic. Rin and Seri, Inseperable. I've got my changeling deck and I'm very excited to find out they've become this.
Image
I must be old, I don't get that picture but Rin and Seri, Inseperable makes me think of this one:

Image
Ren and Stimpy by John Kricfalusi
V/R

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Post by umtiger » 10 months ago

Personally, I'm okay with less keywords. For example, I do not think they should have "landfall" as a keyword. So it doesn't matter to me whether or not that "mill" is a new keyword. If R&D is pandering to anyone, it's certainly not me.

But I've got to say, all of the alternatives that you provided (Forget, Dirge, Dement, Erase, Silence) were not as good as Mill. Three of them are even former cards that have no relationship to the Mill mechanic.
DirkGently wrote:
10 months ago
Sounds like Prismatic Omen. A card that sucks.

(Obviously it's not quite as good an effect, but it also can be played much earlier and has some land-type synergies)

Not to say it's a bad card but I really doubt it's busted.

Teferi is interesting. Pretty weak small abilities though.
Prismatic Omen is a neat card. I certainly does more than just fix mana. I'm sure that a lot of us have been playing magic long enough to realize that any effect on a cheap enough cost can be worthwhile. An analogous effect would be Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and that card is a staple in the format. I think even Dryad of the Ilysian Grove sees Legacy play. So yeah, Prismatic Omen isn't the strongest card. But if we're only here to discuss the newest cards.

Chromatic Orrery certainly has its applications. Seeing makes me want to assemble that Memnarch deck that I've had in the back on mind since I got a foil version over 10 years ago. Yes, I've been playing EDH that long. Yes, I've been waiting for an effect like this for that long.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 10 months ago

@DirkGently Yeah, Im not a huge fan of strict manafixing either. I'm currently playing only one and two color decks because of how unenjoyable I find that game mechanic to be. I'd rather establish my strengths and limitations early on in deckbuilding rather than tinker with the variance of 3-5 color ratios over hundreds of games. Less stressful overall.

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Post by Mookie » 10 months ago

More things....
Chromatic Orrery is intriguing. I'm mildly annoyed that there's another toy for 5-color decks, especially since, like Jegantha, the Wellspring, it activates Sisay/Najeela/Golos by itself. I am contemplating it in Sharuum as a reanimation target though - 5 mana is a lot of ramp. Draw isn't as valuable though, since a lot of my permanents are colorless artifacts. Hmmm... I suspect that its mana-fixing mode will be less used for actually mana fixing, and more for combo enabling, by converting infinite colorless mana into something usable.
Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge is mildly interesting as a way for mono-red to ramp in the command zone, while also being an aggressive beater. Only triggering at its controller's end step makes the treasure generation a lot less abusable though - you need to kill stuff on your own turn, and Gadrak has to live (so no board wipes). Still, could be decent as a janky Pitiless Plunderer, since it also triggers off opponents' creatures.
Pack Leader is a strong lord for Dog tribal.
Llanowar Visionary is Elvish Visionary stapled to Llanowar Elves, which amuses me. I don't think it's great, but it's not terrible either.
Shipwreck Dowser looks to be an upgrade over Mnemonic Wall, which I'm running in a few decks. Lose a point of toughness, gain a prowess beater.
Tidal Whale is a janky cycler.
Cryptic Masterpiece is a relatively cheap draw engine that goes away after a while. Easier to use than Endless Atlas, and a strict upgrade over Sunset Pyramid, which I've contemplated in the past. I think that Tome of Legends is my current cheap draw artifact of choice though. (and all of these have been pretty significant power creep over poor, innocent Jayemdae Tome)

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Post by Hawk » 10 months ago

New card - Fungal Rebirth. Me, personally, I've never been able to get onboard with Nature's Spiral over Regrowth or Eternal Witness or Wildest Dreams (which, for the record, are my three favorite mono-green versions of this particular effect) - outside of dedicated mono-green it's too often that I do end up wanting an instant or sorcery out of these effects. But instant speed feels like an interesting enough upside to get me to think about it. It isn't blinkable, but it's also more and arguably better bodies, if you care about that in a sacrifice deck. I think I might at least seriously consider "instant speed Nature's Spiral", so the Morbid Saproling tokens are literally just pure gravy. Card's interesting, is what I'm saying.

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Post by FoxOfWar » 10 months ago

Might have to consider Fungal Rebirth in Thromok, since the deck generally doesn't want to spend much deck estate for recursion, but this one comes with tokens so it's easier to slide in.
36 decks or so...
Show
Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile - Ghosty Blinky Anafenza - Nezahal - Big, Blue and HERE! - Gonti Can Afford It - Kazuul, Tyrant of Chandras - Polukranos, More Mana - Azor Takes Flight - A3OS System - Vona Life Pain - Angel With a Whip and Her Pet Fox - Tolsimir Wolf Crusade - Dragonlord Steal & Copy - Arjun, the Mad Flame - Tatyova's Mad Lands - Zegana's Simic - Chainer Does the Value Dance - Polukranos, Unchained - Running Thromok - Sydri's Loco-Inspiraion - Zedruu the Furyhearted - Estrid Land Animation - A Case of Tariel's Persistent F*ckery - Tail of the AristoCat Humanitarian - Karador, Tomb Operator - Tayam Re-Curses - Jeleva... does... things - Sidisi, Death is Served - Omnath, Blink and You're Missing - The Negatiweaver - Breya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs - Ishai and Reyhan Dicepile - Kynaios and Tiro Landfall Impersonations - Tana and Ravos' Regal Gatekeeping - Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation - General Tazri's Utterly Amazing Allies

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Post by Serenade » 10 months ago

Jamming Elder Gargaroth in my Surrak 2.0 deck....that is quite a green mythic.
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