Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

Dragoon wrote:
1 year ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
when you want the card draw, opponents are more likely to just stick to 1 spell a turn and not attack you.
Sure, but if everybody else is playing in slow mode and not attacking you, you should be able to easily advance your game plan (against proactive decks at least, reactive decks are another beast)
Again, the point is that it (typically) will be whichever one you want least. So if you're desperately trying to get an answer to a board state that's already spiraled out of control... well then everybody plays slow mode, and you don't get anything until they attack you for lethal, or while they whittle away at your life total with their one giant trampler. On the other hand, if everyone is still building up, they'll happily hand you extra cards while they ramp away, easily outstripping your ability to play them. So when you want to slow the game down, he'll draw you cards, and when you want to draw cards, he'll slow their spells down. None of this is to say that he's not valuable, but that its important to keep your expectations in check when planning around him.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

sumir
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FoxOfWar
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Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

I kind of really want to build Rin and Seri, Inseparable because that art (and probably the tokens for it) are adorable... but it's going to be pretty tricky finding a build that isn't a.) very Commander-reliant and b.) pretty linear on top of that. Most Hounds aren't much to shake at even if you add a free Cat token for the ride.

A pretty deck full of cute stuff... but if it's not actually interesting to play, I'd build it and then take it apart after two games.
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Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

FoxOfWar wrote:
1 year ago
I kind of really want to build Rin and Seri, Inseparable because that art (and probably the tokens for it) are adorable... but it's going to be pretty tricky finding a build that isn't a.) very Commander-reliant and b.) pretty linear on top of that. Most Hounds aren't much to shake at even if you add a free Cat token for the ride.

A pretty deck full of cute stuff... but if it's not actually interesting to play, I'd build it and then take it apart after two games.
It seems like something to keep an eye out for, at least. Even if most of the currently available dogs aren't great, I'm guessing this change is going to precede a bunch more dogs in future sets, like how we've seen more cats in the past couple years. So if the first iteration doesn't work out, might be worth waiting and checking in in the future.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Evaluating various new cards....
Peer into the Abyss is interesting. It's not quite Enter the Infinite, but drawing 30+ cards for 7 mana is... a lot. You're not guaranteed to get the exact cards you want when compared with a tutor, but there is certainly a point at which card quantity is more valuable than card quality. It does cost a hefty amount of life and put a target on your head though, so would want to either put it in a deck capable of defending itself, or just capable of winning the game immediately. Alternatively: Psychosis Crawler.
Rin and Seri, Inseperable are adorable. Hounds/Dogs aren't a particularly powerful tribe (although it sounds like they'll be getting some support in the set), but there have been some good Cats printed. Don't know whether they are worth running over Arahbo, Roar of the World though. I suppose a repeatable Lightning Helix is pretty good, even if you do need to put some work into it.
Teferi's Ageless Insight is the more relevant half of Alhammarret's Archive, and I expect it to see a bit of play.
Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose is a very cheap instance of the effect, and seems scary in any lifegain deck (or you can just use hit activated ability). Could also be fun at the head of some sort of lifelink tribal deck. Will probably see a lot of play with Exquisite Blood.

Reprints also look great. Grim Tutor isn't the strongest tutor, but it's going to see a lot more play with the reprint. Azusa, Lost but Seeking pleases me greatly, as does Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Baneslayer Angel isn't really a great EDH card, but it's still sweet.

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

FoxOfWar wrote:
1 year ago
I kind of really want to build Rin and Seri, Inseparable because that art (and probably the tokens for it) are adorable... but it's going to be pretty tricky finding a build that isn't a.) very Commander-reliant and b.) pretty linear on top of that. Most Hounds aren't much to shake at even if you add a free Cat token for the ride.

A pretty deck full of cute stuff... but if it's not actually interesting to play, I'd build it and then take it apart after two games.
Here's hoping M21 + JumpStart...er...jump starts this deck. As it stands, I looked at the "best hounds in EDH" at this time, and...

- Ainok Survivalist is pretty good but wouldn't actually trigger CatDog if played "correctly".
- Corpse Cur is not a natural fit for a go-wide deck as the likely only infector it can play.
- Abzan Beastmaster is...fine, although unlikely to trigger in a Go-wide deck.
- Ainok Bond-Kin is probably our first good add; not natively triggered by Rin and Seri, but the deck will probably be running Cathars' Crusade and other enablers.
- Mowu, Loyal Companion is a very good boy, but also a very french vanilla beater that is awkwardly the same CMC as our commander.
- Chakram Retriever is not in our color identity.
- Wild Mongrel is a stone-cold classic and I'm sure the deck runs him, but doesn't really have any special synergy with the deck.
- Kunoros, Hound of Athreos is not in our color identity, which is very very sad for us.
- Salt Road Ambushers again fails to trigger CatDog. Morph in general is super awkward for our Commander.
- Resolute Watchdog is great; cheap enough to come down ahead of Rin and Seri OR be easily thrown down after them, with a relevant activated ability.
- Longshot Squad is pretty medium as a Hill Giant until we start outlasting or Crusading some counters out; Reach is also a very unexciting payoff. We may play it anyways, but...woof. (Pun intended).
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda - the original Goodest boy is totally fine as a cheap aggressive play for an aggressive deck.
- Banehound isn't in our colors.
- Pako, Arcane Retriever is technically in our colors, but REALLY BAD without Haldan and probably a pass.
- Hound of Griselbrand is a french vanilla, and a bit awkward at 4 CMC.

That's the 15 best Hounds and after that the quality drops sharply into "limited chaff". As it stands, the deck will be cat-heavy and also just run a ton of changelings, since even vanilla changelings like Woodland Changeling end up being a double trigger.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
FoxOfWar wrote:
1 year ago
I kind of really want to build Rin and Seri, Inseparable because that art (and probably the tokens for it) are adorable... but it's going to be pretty tricky finding a build that isn't a.) very Commander-reliant and b.) pretty linear on top of that. Most Hounds aren't much to shake at even if you add a free Cat token for the ride.

A pretty deck full of cute stuff... but if it's not actually interesting to play, I'd build it and then take it apart after two games.
Here's hoping M21 + JumpStart...er...jump starts this deck. As it stands, I looked at the "best hounds in EDH" at this time, and...

- Ainok Survivalist is pretty good but wouldn't actually trigger CatDog if played "correctly".
- Corpse Cur is not a natural fit for a go-wide deck as the likely only infector it can play.
- Abzan Beastmaster is...fine, although unlikely to trigger in a Go-wide deck.
- Ainok Bond-Kin is probably our first good add; not natively triggered by Rin and Seri, but the deck will probably be running Cathars' Crusade and other enablers.
- Mowu, Loyal Companion is a very good boy, but also a very french vanilla beater that is awkwardly the same CMC as our commander.
- Chakram Retriever is not in our color identity.
- Wild Mongrel is a stone-cold classic and I'm sure the deck runs him, but doesn't really have any special synergy with the deck.
- Kunoros, Hound of Athreos is not in our color identity, which is very very sad for us.
- Salt Road Ambushers again fails to trigger CatDog. Morph in general is super awkward for our Commander.
- Resolute Watchdog is great; cheap enough to come down ahead of Rin and Seri OR be easily thrown down after them, with a relevant activated ability.
- Longshot Squad is pretty medium as a Hill Giant until we start outlasting or Crusading some counters out; Reach is also a very unexciting payoff. We may play it anyways, but...woof. (Pun intended).
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda - the original Goodest boy is totally fine as a cheap aggressive play for an aggressive deck.
- Banehound isn't in our colors.
- Pako, Arcane Retriever is technically in our colors, but REALLY BAD without Haldan and probably a pass.
- Hound of Griselbrand is a french vanilla, and a bit awkward at 4 CMC.

That's the 15 best Hounds and after that the quality drops sharply into "limited chaff". As it stands, the deck will be cat-heavy and also just run a ton of changelings, since even vanilla changelings like Woodland Changeling end up being a double trigger.
Pretty good analysis, though I might quibble with Pako, Arcane Retriever. He's a hasty beater that will typically swing as a 5/5, and only gets bigger the more he swings. Plus native synergy with the handful of +1/+1 counter matters dudes. I agree it's not the best that he'll be without his buddy, but his ability does function to let him grow rapidly, if unpredictably.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

Chromatic Orrery looks interesting
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Post by UnNamed1 » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Chromatic Orrery looks interesting
I definitely want a copy. Spend 2 mana (essentially) to turn all your colorless mana into colored? Sounds busted.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 1 year ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Chromatic Orrery looks interesting
I definitely want a copy. Spend 2 mana (essentially) to turn all your colorless mana into colored? Sounds busted.
Also, just pointing out that this Chromatic Orrery and Sol Ring activate Golos, Tireless Pilgrim by themselves......Not to mention anything else you have ramped on the board....yikes.

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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
no, its gamy and anoying. thats player slang with no flavor and they just stuck it on a card. there were dumbas names for al the other keywords like trolshroud but they replaced them with words that made sense and aded something. now they are just lazy. its pandering.
Does "mill" actually lack flavor? It does originate from Millstone which is one of the truest OGs.

As far as MTG slang goes, it's not a total disaster like your white weenie vs black weenie vs red weenie vs blue weenie vs green weenie. They literally worded it the way players would actually verbalize the action in game.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Teferi in the house!

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Post by KitsuLeif » 1 year ago

I still want to point out that I hate Teferi, Master of Time. Yes, the leaks stated he would start at 5 loyalty, but 3 isn't really making him any worse in EDH. He still needs less than 2 full turn cycles until you can ult him. It shouldn't be too difficult to get him out turn 2/3 (with more expensive mana rocks even turn 1) where most players still ramp and not having any creatures on board to attack Teferi.
And then he loots every turn which will slow down the game. Think of Sensei's Divining Top but not just at the end of the turn before yours. Why did they thought this Teferi was a good idea?
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

umtiger wrote:
1 year ago
Does "mill" actually lack flavor? It does originate from Millstone which is one of the truest OGs.

As far as MTG slang goes, it's not a total disaster like your white weenie vs black weenie vs red weenie vs blue weenie vs green weenie. They literally worded it the way players would actually verbalize the action in game.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Teferi in the house!
its pandering to you and people like you. you are in the inside club that likes having all your old jokes be actual game words now. what is the flavor, it grinds your deck into flour. oh noes, my cards are wheat now. its not an og its just an old bad card that you force to be relevant.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
its pandering to you and people like you. you are in the inside club that likes having all your old jokes be actual game words now. what is the flavor, it grinds your deck into flour. oh noes, my cards are wheat now. its not an og its just an old bad card that you force to be relevant.
RIP Magic, 1993-2020

I really want to talk about Peer into the Abyss more. I'm replacing Ad Nauseam in my MBC list with it. My average CMC is right around 2, so AN will typically draw me around 5-10 cards for 10-20 life, whereas Peer gets 35+ for the same life cost. Of course, being a sorcery is a drawback, but Jesus that's a lot of cards. Drawing cards is my favorite thing to do in Magic and I can't resist Peer's siren song.

The only thing that bothers me are the physical logistics. I guess I count my cards in hand, in play, and in exile, subtract it from 99, and draw that number divided by 2 (rounding up, obviously)?
Last edited by TheGildedGoose 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

good in nekrusaur
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
umtiger wrote:
1 year ago
Does "mill" actually lack flavor? It does originate from Millstone which is one of the truest OGs.

As far as MTG slang goes, it's not a total disaster like your white weenie vs black weenie vs red weenie vs blue weenie vs green weenie. They literally worded it the way players would actually verbalize the action in game.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Teferi in the house!
its pandering to you and people like you. you are in the inside club that likes having all your old jokes be actual game words now. what is the flavor, it grinds your deck into flour. oh noes, my cards are wheat now. its not an og its just an old bad card that you force to be relevant.
Milling means to grind down an object, not necessarily flour/food products. It is just most frequently used to describe grains.

I believe the fluff behind losing the game when you have to draw with no cards in your library is that you "go insane". Hence moving cards from your opponents library to their graveyard is slowing grinding down their sanity. You're literally milling down their mind. See the OG Millstone's flavor text "More than one mage was driven insane by the sound of the Millstone relentlessly grinding away."

Actually, I really would like a millstone reprint where it says "target player mills 2". That sounds pretty sick.
GloriousGoose wrote:
1 year ago
The only thing that bothers me are the physical logistics. I guess I count my cards in hand, in play, and in exile, subtract it from 99, and draw that number divided by 2 (rounding up, obviously)?
It's probably easier to just count the number of cards left in your deck right?

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

materpillar wrote:
1 year ago
It's probably easier to just count the number of cards left in your deck right?
You'd effectively have to count it one and a half times: once to get the total count, then half to know how many cards to put in your hand. With Erebos, assuming I've seen 18 cards by turn 7, it seems easier to count that way. Still kind of a hassle, but somewhat more efficient.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

where other than dedicated garbage edh would anyone even play a milstone. its a bookmark. not even good in limited.
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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

I wouldn't mind seeing a reverse Necropotence in white, similar to Armistice but more powerful.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
umtiger wrote:
1 year ago
Does "mill" actually lack flavor? It does originate from Millstone which is one of the truest OGs.

As far as MTG slang goes, it's not a total disaster like your white weenie vs black weenie vs red weenie vs blue weenie vs green weenie. They literally worded it the way players would actually verbalize the action in game.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Teferi in the house!
its pandering to you and people like you. you are in the inside club that likes having all your old jokes be actual game words now. what is the flavor, it grinds your deck into flour. oh noes, my cards are wheat now. its not an og its just an old bad card that you force to be relevant.
*hands you a "get off my lawn you damn kids" sign*
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

sure thats me not the people turning their 90s injokes into rules text that doesnt make any %$#% sense if you werent playing bad cards when artifacts were brown.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

you realize that the usage of the word mill in the context of removing cards from a deck into a graveyard or discard pile isn't just limited to MTG right?
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

it comes from one old bad 90s artfiact with nothing but nostalgia. maybe people use it for yugioh or whatever i dont know but thats old mtg people. mtg people dont just play mtg. people say dome in oter games but it would still look real stupid printed on cards.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
no, its gamy and anoying. thats player slang with no flavor and they just stuck it on a card. there were dumbas names for al the other keywords like trolshroud but they replaced them with words that made sense and aded something. now they are just lazy. its pandering.
I mean they are making cards that have no business existing in any coherent fantasy world besides pandering to pet owners and you complain about mill?

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