Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Kavu Enthusiast wrote:
1 year ago
[
I'm going to have to disagree on 'trash'. A 'free cast any permanents in the top 5 cards of your library and put the rest in your hand' isn't garbage at all. I think the only one from this series that fell under the bar of being in the same ballpark as the rest is the Jeskai one. All 4 of the rest of the effects can be game winning on cast, just with more or less game presence and setup required of the player. Clearly the BUG one is the dumb 'lol I win out of no-where with no previous board state' sort of spell that most people hate games ending with and is too much. One sided board wipe or mass graveyard res require you have a board or a GY, but they are going to completely end games when played in the decks they belong in.

It's similar with the RUG ultimatum, it will require some *actual* set up to abuse, but it's *very* abusable to get to cast up to 5 free permanent cards off the top of your deck; especially in a format like EDH with huge game ending permanents and lots of tutors that put stuff on the top of your deck. I'm perfectly ok with requiring a player jump through a hoop to get a really powerful effect, but it's really not something I would call 'bad' unless I was letting the outlier that is the BUG ultimatum skew my grading.

I think an honest objective tally of the cards would be more that the RUG/RWB/WGB ultimatums are all strong effects cards that are going to be kept somewhat in check by requiring setup on the part of the player....with the RWU ultimatum being a super weak outlier for the cycle and the BUG ultimatum being a super busted outlier for the cycle.

1. it's not a free cast, it's a put them onto the battlefield. So no eldrazi abuse.
2. it compares basically to a fixed cost non-scaling genesis wave that can't be recurred; G-wave costs 1 more, does not put the leftovers in your hand, but can be recurred and scales with infinite mana/large amounts of mana.

Its only place is in a deck that manipulates its topdecks in some way because at 5 cards deep it's almost always going to be worse than genesis wave. 7 mana draw 5 and maybe put a couple permanents into play.

The two scenarios it's better than g-wave:
1) you know what your topdeck is
2) you are cheat-casting spells, and don't want x-spells as a result

I will certainly not replace genesis wave with this in any of my decks that run it, and most people shouldn't. It's very narrow.

Even in maelstrom wanderer where this card should be really good, the odds of me hitting 3 mana dorks, a land and a chaos warp are high enough I'm not super interested.

This card is not even in the same power park as one-sided planar cleansing and surely nowhere near as powerful as splendid reclamation plus primeval's glorious rebirth plus roar of reclamation plus replenish.

edit: and that is all okay. It's fine for cards not to all be balanced in EDH. This one just isn't very good :)

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

Genesis ultimatum, aka "put this in your maelstrom wanderer deck".
And really pokken, it's not as strong as the sultai one, but you can't say it' a weak card. It may be less powerful than the abzan and mardu ones, but they require the right board state to really shine. This one is simply value, everytime

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Mythos of Illuna is pretty solid. Clone target permanent, but optionally better, and only really sad because it's got that 3-color identity keeping it out of most cloning and token-centric decks.
Fits in just fine in my Riku deck, yes I will gladly copy my Swarm Intelligence three times, thank you for asking.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
Genesis ultimatum, aka "put this in your maelstrom wanderer deck".
And really pokken, it's not as strong as the sultai one, but you can't say it' a weak card. It may be less powerful than the abzan and mardu ones, but they require the right board state to really shine. This one is simply value, everytime
It's on the lower end of the power spectrum for a 7 mana sorcery -- it has very strict deckbuilding constraints to get much value out of it. If your deck is a typical 3/4 permanents (of which roughly half are lands) and 1/4 spells and your average CMC is 3, your value return on investment will be something like 5 cards and ~10cmc of tempo at best, given it costs 7 that's fairly medium.

5 cards is just not that many cards. go look at the top 5 of your favorite EDH deck a few times and see what you get.

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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Should the end of Yorion's companion ability effectively be "[for the format that you are playing.]"? Just wondering what, if anything, it does in EDH.

Mystic Subdual is an interesting take on shutdown auras. It hates on hate bears.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

So an interesting interaction I think I just picked up on, that might have implications for Legendary Creature's with "Dies" effects:
Ikoria Release Notes wrote:If a merged creature leaves the battlefield, one object leaves the battlefield and each card is put into the appropriate zone. For example, if a merged creature containing three cards dies, one creature died and three cards were put into a player's graveyard.
Ikoria Release Notes wrote:In the Commander variant, if a commander is part of a merged creature, the resulting creature is a commander. If it leaves the battlefield and the commander is moved to the command zone instead, that permanent and the other cards contained by that permanent go to the appropriate zone while the commander card goes to the command zone.
If I'm reading this right, it sounds like if you mutate onto (either on top of or on bottom) say, Child of Alara, when it dies, you can send child to the command zone, but still trigger the merged creature's "when this dies" ability. Which seems nice.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Aaaaand we have the full set. A few interesting things in the final dump.

Bonders' Enclave looks reasonable - cheaper activation cost than Arch of Orazca, but it also requires having a big creature, which may or may not be easier for different decks. I would expect it to see a fair amount of play.

Yorion, Sky Nomad looks perfect for Brago. Can't be a companion due to format rules.... but if it suddenly became legal to run extra cards, I'd probably consider it. Also hits noncreature permanents, which is very much appreciated.

Titans' Nest is.... eh? It's sort of a weird effect. It does look powerful, so I may give it a shot in Tasigur, but only applying to the colorless portion of colored spells does limit it somewhat. A lot of the mana sinks I run are X spells and Tasigur activations (which it doesn't help with), but Channeling my graveyard to cast other spells seems potent. Incidental surveil triggers aren't bad either.

Genesis Ultimatum looks sweet. It's Genesis Wave at a fixed size. More efficient at 7 mana - you hit 5 cards instead of 4, and you're not limited by CMC. Plus the non-permanents go into your hand instead of your graveyard, which makes it a better if you whiff. I'd say it actually looks better for decks that are, well, trying to cheat out expensive permanents - with Wave, you effectively already need to have 3 more mana than is necessary to cast anything you hit, while Ultimatum lacks that restriction. Also works much better with topdeck manipulation than Genesis Wave. I'm somewhat sad I can't run it in Animar (because Primal Surge), but it looks like a solid inclusion elsewhere.

Mythos of Illuna looks reasonable for clone-focused decks, as an alternative to Clever Impersonator.

I'll need to run through the full spoiler again before I can render my verdict, but there are certainly a lot of interesting / strong cards in the set. A pity how many of them are wedge-colored and thus don't fit in my decks, but still...

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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Oh, wow, Mythos of Illuna can copy a land. Not sure if we've had land tokens before now. Another cheap way to get a Gaea's Cradle!
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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, wow, Mythos of Illuna can copy a land. Not sure if we've had land tokens before now. Another cheap way to get a Gaea's Cradle!
And if you happen to animate that land, you can make the land fight another creature. XD

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Cyberium wrote:
1 year ago
Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, wow, Mythos of Illuna can copy a land. Not sure if we've had land tokens before now. Another cheap way to get a Gaea's Cradle!
And if you happen to animate that land, you can make the land fight another creature. XD
Being animated isn't a copiable characteristic. You'd need one of the effects that animate all lands.
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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Cyberium wrote:
1 year ago
Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, wow, Mythos of Illuna can copy a land. Not sure if we've had land tokens before now. Another cheap way to get a Gaea's Cradle!
And if you happen to animate that land, you can make the land fight another creature. XD
Being animated isn't a copiable characteristic. You'd need one of the effects that animate all lands.
Now that's an idea. I wouldn't mind play a Temur land-animation deck for the sake of it. :3

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, wow, Mythos of Illuna can copy a land. Not sure if we've had land tokens before now. Another cheap way to get a Gaea's Cradle!
Copy Lotus Field, then use Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer to make all your tokens a Lotus Field. You won't have to sacrifice lands, as the tokens are already in play. They'll be untapped as well.

Seems like a legitimate play for say a Riku of Two Reflections deck.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

darrenhabib wrote:
1 year ago
Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, wow, Mythos of Illuna can copy a land. Not sure if we've had land tokens before now. Another cheap way to get a Gaea's Cradle!
Copy Lotus Field, then use Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer to make all your tokens a Lotus Field. You won't have to sacrifice lands, as the tokens are already in play. They'll be untapped as well.

Seems like a legitimate play for say a Riku of Two Reflections deck.
I thought a token created also causes EtB effect to trigger? Such as with Cackling Counterpart.

EDIT: NVM, you're referring to Brudiclad's effect. The token Lotus Field entering still require us to sacrifice two lands.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

So on one hand, I feel like yorion, sky nomad should give the RC pause about the 100 card maximum. It's a pointless rule, and I'm so so sick of people saying "but a wishboard/companion would let you have more than 100 cards!!!" like it's an actual argument.

On the other hand, Yorion in a brago deck sounds like a real PitA, as if brago wasn't enough of a PitA already. Yorion just keeps chaining with flickerwisp, or faster with blink cat, to blink your whole board every/other turn without even doing anything. With blink cat your whole board is immune to sorcery-speed removal. So that's kinda dumb. Ofc it'll still show up in the 99 though. It's not OP or anything, I suppose, but it's not exactly my favorite.
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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

I don't know that the RC needs to review for Yorion, Sky Nomad - as you noted, it's probably going to make the 99 of Brago, King Eternal, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Aminatou, the Fateshifter, and many other UWx decks on the strength of its text as a sort of "super flickerwisp". Those decks really don't need incentive to have this in their starting hand - Blink is already a great archetype in EDH.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know that the RC needs to review for Yorion, Sky Nomad - as you noted, it's probably going to make the 99 of Brago, King Eternal, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Aminatou, the Fateshifter, and many other UWx decks on the strength of its text as a sort of "super flickerwisp". Those decks really don't need incentive to have this in their starting hand - Blink is already a great archetype in EDH.
But if you could play Yorian as a companion to Roon, you could cast Yorian and say "Yorian!" and then pick up Roon and say "My name is Roon, not Ryan!" and then blink him. And then repeat this process until the playgroup kicks you out.
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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know that the RC needs to review for Yorion, Sky Nomad - as you noted, it's probably going to make the 99 of Brago, King Eternal, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Aminatou, the Fateshifter, and many other UWx decks on the strength of its text as a sort of "super flickerwisp". Those decks really don't need incentive to have this in their starting hand - Blink is already a great archetype in EDH.
But if you could play Yorian as a companion to Roon, you could cast Yorian and say "Yorian!" and then pick up Roon and say "My name is Roon, not Ryan!" and then blink him. And then repeat this process until the playgroup kicks you out.
If you consistently did that routine, I'd let you play it for the entertainment value lol.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know that the RC needs to review for Yorion, Sky Nomad - as you noted, it's probably going to make the 99 of Brago, King Eternal, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Aminatou, the Fateshifter, and many other UWx decks on the strength of its text as a sort of "super flickerwisp". Those decks really don't need incentive to have this in their starting hand - Blink is already a great archetype in EDH.
I supported removing the 100 card max before Yorion was spoiled just because I don't think it's a useful or important rule, and deviates commander from other formats without any real purpose.

That said, my resolve on that has never been weaker :laugh: since Yorion would provide an actual real justification for running 120 card decks. And Yorion looks strong enough that I wouldn't be psyched to see it in the companion zone.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

so,tell me i'm wrong but since the mana symbols are in ( ) that mean it's reminder text and thus I could run Raugrin Triome in my UW daxos if i wanted to right? Not that I would run a tap land in a two color deck.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Nope, basic types imply the text for tapping to add mana.

It's more like how a textless card still has the mana symbols on them.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
so,tell me i'm wrong but since the mana symbols are in ( ) that mean it's reminder text and thus I could run Raugrin Triome in my UW daxos if i wanted to right? Not that I would run a tap land in a two color deck.
You are right about (), but overall you are wrong. Lands with basic land types have non-reminder version of the mana ability implied by the type. If you have a land that's a forest, it doesn't need to say "tap: add G" because that ability is defined by the rules. If you wanted to write out the precise rules text of Raugrin Triome including the text defined by the rules, it would say:

tap: add W
tap: add U
tap: add R
(tap: add W, U, or R)
Cycling 3

The reminder text doesn't give it color identity, but those first 3 unwritten abilities do.
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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

Actually, no again. Just like extort, the ability that basic lands tap for certain types is handled by rules, and is not on the actual card. It literally is just reminder text on the card.
903.4b Reminder text is ignored when determining a card's color identity. See rule 207.2.

207.2. The text box may also contain italicized text that has no game function.
The reason you can't run it in certain commander decks, is because lands with basic land types are specifically called out in this rule:
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander's color identity.

Example: Wort, the Raidmother's color identity is red and green. A Wort Commander deck may include land cards with the basic land types Mountain and/or Forest. It can't include any land cards with the basic land types Plains, Island, or Swamp.

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Post by lyonhaert » 1 year ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
Actually, no again. Just like extort, the ability that basic lands tap for certain types is handled by rules, and is not on the actual card. It literally is just reminder text on the card.
903.4b Reminder text is ignored when determining a card's color identity. See rule 207.2.

207.2. The text box may also contain italicized text that has no game function.
The reason you can't run it in certain commander decks, is because lands with basic land types are specifically called out in this rule:
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander's color identity.

Example: Wort, the Raidmother's color identity is red and green. A Wort Commander deck may include land cards with the basic land types Mountain and/or Forest. It can't include any land cards with the basic land types Plains, Island, or Swamp.
Yeah, it's handled by rules. But tstorm is right because of this rule:
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words "basic land type," it's referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability "{T}: Add [mana symbol]," even if the text box doesn't actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is w; for Islands, U; for Swamps, B; for Mountains, R; and for Forests, G. See rule 107.4a. See also rule 605, "Mana Abilities."
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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

lyonhaert wrote:
1 year ago
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bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
Actually, no again. Just like extort, the ability that basic lands tap for certain types is handled by rules, and is not on the actual card. It literally is just reminder text on the card.
903.4b Reminder text is ignored when determining a card's color identity. See rule 207.2.

207.2. The text box may also contain italicized text that has no game function.
The reason you can't run it in certain commander decks, is because lands with basic land types are specifically called out in this rule:
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander's color identity.

Example: Wort, the Raidmother's color identity is red and green. A Wort Commander deck may include land cards with the basic land types Mountain and/or Forest. It can't include any land cards with the basic land types Plains, Island, or Swamp.
Yeah, it's handled by rules. But tstorm is right because of this rule:
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words "basic land type," it's referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability "{T}: Add [mana symbol]," even if the text box doesn't actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is w; for Islands, U; for Swamps, B; for Mountains, R; and for Forests, G. See rule 107.4a. See also rule 605, "Mana Abilities."
If that were true, there would be no reason for 903.5d, Yes, the lands have that intrinsic ability, but that's still in the rules, and not on the card - and CI looks at what's on the card. While the lands are granted that ability, that ability is not actually on the card, it's in the rules. Exactly like extort. On the card, it is only there as reminder text. This is why 903.5d is there and necessary.
903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).
Basic lands do not have rules text. Just as extort cards only have "Extort" as their rules text. The ability comes from the rules, and CI does not look at intrinsic abilities or additional text added by the rules.

Either way, the exact technical details aren't really that important... the result is that the tri-lands still have to follow their essential CI requirements.

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I'm still astounded by how much of this set looks playable to outright ridiculous. Some cards might be niche, but encourage new playstyles entirely. Companions look fascinating as well, and could shake up how several decks are built or even considered from here on out. Even Mutate can really shake up how a Commander can be played, as each of them can be pseudo-haste, as well as have variable P/T or abilities.

This set looks to be one of the larger shake-ups to Commander in quite a while.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

My group's Intet has now become an Illuna, and lemme tell you, that thing is no slouch. Stick an Auspicious Starrix in there too for fun, and soon enough the guy gets to pay two mana to flip five permanents into play plus whatever else the mutate pile does. Yeah, the mechanic's parasitic and he's stuck with what IKO gave him, but still.
 
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