Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
To be fair, I am guessing this was more about aesthetics than power level. Though it could have been a little about the latter. 3 land types; {3} to cycle. To mirror the bicycle lands.

Though, as you said earlier, why couldn't they just give us the Enemy bicyle lands :(
I honestly have no idea. If they don't do enemy tangos in zendikar I'll probably riot :P

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
BOVINE wrote:
1 year ago
Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
Bloom Tender does 3. Basalt Monolith does 4 :P
So with only Basalt Monolith you get infinite C?
Yes. That's crazy powerful. Now I want to make a new Simic deck with Kinnan as the commander,
It feels like the card designers were having a competition this set for how many legendary creatures that formed two card infinite mana combos they could sneak into the set. So far it's at least three, and two of them are with monolith and monolith adjacent rocks.
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
To be fair, I am guessing this was more about aesthetics than power level. Though it could have been a little about the latter. 3 land types; {3} to cycle. To mirror the bicycle lands.

Though, as you said earlier, why couldn't they just give us the Enemy bicyle lands :(
This is pretty normal, IMO - the more playable the front half of the card is, the more the cycling cost usually is (while overpriced / weaker / more situational cards usually have lower cycling costs). See Akroma's Vengeance and Sweltering Suns.

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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
I mean, you could use that logic to criticize every card.

"I just don't know who decided that predatory Impetus better cost 5 mana or it'll break Magic."
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
I mean, you could use that logic to criticize every card.

"I just don't know who decided that predatory Impetus better cost 5 mana or it'll break Magic."
An overcosted uncommon green aura is not the same as a cycle of rare lands, a category of card that is almost universally anticipated and valued every set.

Apples and oranges.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
Someone who realized they'd be strictly better than bicycle lands? Their only downside relative to bicycles for an entire additional land type is that 1 extra to cycle.

Mind you, I would have preferred bicycles for the flexibility in terms of where they can be included, but whaddyagonnado.

I wonder if there's any chance we'll get bicycles in an uncommon slot? Probably too much to hope for. That'd be sick though.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Whelp, bonders' enclave is probably the card I'm most interested in playing in my existing decks thus far. Took long enough, Phelddagrif really wasn't getting anything this release, in C20 or Ikoria.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
I mean, you could use that logic to criticize every card.

"I just don't know who decided that predatory Impetus better cost 5 mana or it'll break Magic."
I don't think the same logic applies to every card. Many are appropriately costed. Many are under costed.

These I find overcosted.
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
Someone who realized they'd be strictly better than bicycle lands? Their only downside relative to bicycles for an entire additional land type is that 1 extra to cycle.
The difference between 3 mana to cycle and 2 is probably like 50 fold in terms of how rarely these will be cycled which is way out of line with the power difference.

I'd have costed them as w/g w/b hybrid (for the abzan one for example since white is the center of the wedge cost of the ultimatum).

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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
1 year ago
NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
I mean, you could use that logic to criticize every card.

"I just don't know who decided that predatory Impetus better cost 5 mana or it'll break Magic."
An overcosted uncommon green aura is not the same as a cycle of rare lands, a category of card that is almost universally anticipated and valued every set.

Apples and oranges.
When was the last time we got a new cycle of rare lands that are better than these? The Amonkhet rare lands cost 2 to cycle but tap for 2 colors instead of 3.
EDH
WUBrg Morophon, the infinite Kavu
Rwb Ghen, Prison Weaver
Rwb Kaalia, Angel tribal
Rwb Edgar, low curve
Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal
Wr Winota, Aggro and Combo
WG Captain Sisay land destruction
Ur Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Ug Edric pauper
Bg Sarulf peasant
B Marrow-Gnawer, rat colony

Pauper
U Delver
B ETB creatures
G elves

I don’t play modern anymore.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
The difference between 3 mana to cycle and 2 is probably like 50 fold in terms of how rarely these will be cycled which is way out of line with the power difference.

I'd have costed them as w/g w/b hybrid (for the abzan one for example since white is the center of the wedge cost of the ultimatum).
I guess it depends how you play, but I'd say 50x is hyperbolic to the point of parody. Often I'm cycling bicycles when I've flooded out, and the difference in that case isn't such a big one.

They're strictly better as fetch targets, so honestly a significant power de-bump in the cycling department seems pretty reasonable. With cheaper cycling it'd kind of incentivize you not to fetch it.

I mean people run untyped trilands up until their mana base is pretty pimped out. These are much, much stronger than those - even without any cycling whatsoever.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

I don't play Standard, but maybe they worried about having "too full" GYs for Escape...aside from all the GY hate last set.
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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

Well, the Triome lands certainly explains why WotC won't reprint the fetches in standard legal sets.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
The difference between 3 mana to cycle and 2 is probably like 50 fold in terms of how rarely these will be cycled which is way out of line with the power difference.
Hot take: these would be more impactful than the bicycle lands without the cycling at all.
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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
The difference between 3 mana to cycle and 2 is probably like 50 fold in terms of how rarely these will be cycled which is way out of line with the power difference.
Hot take: these would be more impactful than the bicycle lands without the cycling at all.
Ha ha, I mean when an off colored fetchland can fix you for all your colors on Turn 1, that does feel pretty good.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
1 year ago
NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago


I mean, you could use that logic to criticize every card.

"I just don't know who decided that predatory Impetus better cost 5 mana or it'll break Magic."
An overcosted uncommon green aura is not the same as a cycle of rare lands, a category of card that is almost universally anticipated and valued every set.

Apples and oranges.
When was the last time we got a new cycle of rare lands that are better than these? The Amonkhet rare lands cost 2 to cycle but tap for 2 colors instead of 3.
You can't think in terms of just commander, because wotc sure can't when they release a set. Since amonkhet have been shocks and scry temples. Standard players eagerly anticipate the rare land cycles, like I said. Commander players do too, and it is disappointing when they are lackluster. Now, I don't think the triomes are lackluster myself, I was just challenging your "apply this logic equally to uncommon auras and rare lands" assertion is all.

Also since amonkhet have been the battlebond lands, Vista, fabled passage, etc if your going to look at it from a commander only standpoint.
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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

the Triomes are neat, slow and don't shuffle teh deck, probably the perfect power level. hope they maintain a reasonable price point like Temples do. I was really hoping for an aggressive five-colour land, though - I have no idea how you'd play a fast Ikoria-based deck without something like City of Brass??

(apropos of nothing, I really resent Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage, cos they are not marvellously better than yr basic Evolving Wilds, but they'll be at the back of yr mind forever and they cost a million dollars each. Boo to these lands!)

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

That bonder's enclave will become a staple

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
1 year ago
You can't think in terms of just commander, because wotc sure can't when they release a set. Since amonkhet have been shocks and scry temples. Standard players eagerly anticipate the rare land cycles, like I said. Commander players do too, and it is disappointing when they are lackluster. Now, I don't think the triomes are lackluster myself, I was just challenging your "apply this logic equally to uncommon auras and rare lands" assertion is all.

Also since amonkhet have been the battlebond lands, Vista, fabled passage, etc if your going to look at it from a commander only standpoint.
I must agree with the sentiment that they are lackluster, they are a direct upgrade from the Tarkir trilands, and they are played a considerable amount as although they enter the battlefield tapped, they also tap for three different colors. The Triome lands also has the bonus of being easily fetchable. They are going to get played a lot in three, four, and five color commander decks. They also have the bonus of not being a dead draw if you get them in the late game where you have a lot of mana, as you can simply get rid of them for a new card.
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Post by FrostNova » 1 year ago

For a long time I though that Land - A B C was impossible to print. Guess what? They belive that tapped lands are fine.

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

So because I heard some rumblings about the Jeskai ultimatum being mistranslated as 5 to any target instead of 5 to a player, creature and walker I thought I'd give the Japanese an actual hard look since that is suppose to be my second language (some cards like that have a few too many inane kanjis that tend to make me pass on trying). Several of the kanji are beyond my level, but the katakana and hiragana are always straightforward; particularly when the former is just being used for romanji versions of English words like is the case on many proper nouns for came objects on MtG cards. They act as sign posts that help tell you whats happening even if your kanji knowledge isn't deep enough.

I think I can see where the confusion is happening and why. The life gain part and the hand part are written roughly as we would see it written in English. Basically 'you draw 5 cards' and 'that/target player gains 5 life'. In between those sentences it says the 'card name' deals 5 damage to the target' (I'm pretty sure, 'Ni' is a pointer for the verb and 'sono X' is 'the/that thing'). But the target selection for the card in Japanese happens in the first sentence before the rest of the card actions. It basically says '1 person, 1 creature, 1 planeswalker, 1 player': here's where I think the confusion is happening for people who have just a passing understanding of romanji written in katakana and not much else...there's a 'ka' particle between these targets, which is basically an 'or' particle in English, if it were an 'and' it would be 'to'. I'm pretty sure that the Japanese language just has issues structuring the actions of the cards the same way English does and explicitly calls out each of your target options and then tells you what game actions the game takes against those targets next. It's not the first time a sentence in Japanese was worded weird from the perspective of an English speaker and it won't be the last.

Also....I saw multiple translations from actual Japanese people that said 5 to any 1 target so yeah, probably not mistranslated. Probably. Believe me since this is definitely something I'm going to slot into at least 1 deck I definitely wish it were a little better (an instant, or had the damage and life game tuned to be on par with draw 5 (you'd have to probably deal 10 (or deal damage equal to your hand size or something) and gain 10+ or something)) but I'm pretty sure they just specifically tooled this ultimatum to be a step below the others for whatever reason.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Hey, the rug ultimatum is bad too, woo! 2/5 are trash, 1/5 is medium and 2/5 busted. Coulda been worse.


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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Titans' Nest is kinda sweet. Villainous Wealth players reap tough XD

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Mythos of Illuna is pretty solid. Clone target permanent, but optionally better, and only really sad because it's got that 3-color identity keeping it out of most cloning and token-centric decks.
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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Hey, the rug ultimatum is bad too, woo! 2/5 are trash, 1/5 is medium and 2/5 busted. Coulda been worse.

I'm going to have to disagree on 'trash'. A 'free cast any permanents in the top 5 cards of your library and put the rest in your hand' isn't garbage at all. I think the only one from this series that fell under the bar of being in the same ballpark as the rest is the Jeskai one. All 4 of the rest of the effects can be game winning on cast, just with more or less game presence and setup required of the player. Clearly the BUG one is the dumb 'lol I win out of no-where with no previous board state' sort of spell that most people hate games ending with and is too much. One sided board wipe or mass graveyard res require you have a board or a GY, but they are going to completely end games when played in the decks they belong in.

It's similar with the RUG ultimatum, it will require some *actual* set up to abuse, but it's *very* abusable to get to cast up to 5 free permanent cards off the top of your deck; especially in a format like EDH with huge game ending permanents and lots of tutors that put stuff on the top of your deck. I'm perfectly ok with requiring a player jump through a hoop to get a really powerful effect, but it's really not something I would call 'bad' unless I was letting the outlier that is the BUG ultimatum skew my grading.

I think an honest objective tally of the cards would be more that the RUG/RWB/WGB ultimatums are all strong effects cards that are going to be kept somewhat in check by requiring setup on the part of the player....with the RWU ultimatum being a super weak outlier for the cycle and the BUG ultimatum being a super busted outlier for the cycle.

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Mythos of Illuna is pretty solid. Clone target permanent, but optionally better, and only really sad because it's got that 3-color identity keeping it out of most cloning and token-centric decks.
True, but it is pretty much perfect for my Yasova deck so that's cool.

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