Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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MeowZeDung
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
I like Winota with Goblin Assault or the creature version of it. Works okay with Trynn. Good for tutors or any ETB effect creatures. Probably great in a shared tribe (allies? Giants? Warriors?).
You could build soldiers for your tribal payoffs and have a mix of humans and non humans.
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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

BOVINE wrote:
1 year ago
Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
Bloom Tender does 3. Basalt Monolith does 4 :P
So with only Basalt Monolith you get infinite C?
Yes. That's crazy powerful. Now I want to make a new Simic deck with Kinnan as the commander,
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Post by Rorseph » 1 year ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
1 year ago
It's going straight in my Bruse/Kraum beast tribal etb combo cycling deck (yes, you read that correctly).
I clicked through the link in your sig, and that deck is wild. Unpredictable Cyclone definitely belongs in there.
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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy may be the most powerful commander in a set full of powerful commanders; that's Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary levels of concerning. The "fair" thing is stupid levels of ramp, as turn 1 Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, or Sol Ring ramps you into the stratosphere; a hand with a land or two and two rocks or dorks should power off into a turn 3 or 4 activation of Kinnan without disruption. To compare:

Rofellos sequence
- Land, go
- Land, Rofellos
- Land, have 6 mana available for nonsense.

Kinnan sequence:
- Turn 1: Land, 1-mana dork.
- Turn 2: Land, Kinnan, tap dork to cast another dork or rock
- Turn 3: Six mana available even if you miss your land drop - and a mana rock that enters untapped is either "free" or net positive to chain off.

To make up for his synergy being a bit more narrow than Rofellos (who, remember, is banned in this format), Kinnan is his own manasink/draw engine to dig rapidly into Craterhoof Behemoth or whatever, and is also a "one-card combo" with Basalt Monolith for infinite mana as well as enabling a variety of combos with Freed from the Real plus dorks, and allows you to play a second color - the best color in MTG.

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Hey it's the set's red wall of text

I don't see how you could break this...wait Mystical Tutor for Enter the Infinite. Phew I thought I'd lost my powers to come up with combos for a second there.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

I don't mind them upping the power for a little... but don't you guys think this is a little much? It's rare for an expansion to be filled with so many combo enablers.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

darrenhabib wrote:
1 year ago
I don't see how you could break this...wait Mystical Tutor for Enter the Infinite. Phew I thought I'd lost my powers to come up with combos for a second there.
Still quite a lot of steps lol. sorcery cycling card + resolving enchantment, plus the cycling mana, so 6 mana + cycling cost + 3 cards.

The thing I dislike about it is you can't really interact with it if they set it up by doing the mystical tutor first, then casting the enchantment, then cycling -- the trigger goes right on.

Bad sequencing design.

This thing is pretty fun as a cycling enabler though.

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Post by Stapler » 1 year ago

Kinnan is making my Akiri/Thrasios manarock tribal deck go 👀👀👀
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
The thing I dislike about it is you can't really interact with it if they set it up by doing the mystical tutor first, then casting the enchantment, then cycling -- the trigger goes right on.
If you mean you can't mill the top card or make them shuffle in response, that's incorrect. Cycling is an activated ability that can be responded to like any other. The Cyclone is replacing the draw, but the draw doesn't happen until the ability resolves. When your opponent cycles their Akroma's Vengeance or whatever, you will have the opportunity to Stifle the cycling ability or Field of Ruin them etc. before the draw replacement happens.
Last edited by Stapler 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

News stuff looks narrow but powerful.

Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - as others have mentioned, seems like a powerful ramp engine + payoff alongside lots of mana dorks (or Basalt Monolith. Or mana rocks, I suppose. I'm not really interested in it for my own decks, but defnitely enables very dumb amounts of mana when built around.

Winota, Joiner of Forces - I'm going to have to check the numbers for my Samut deck, and do some tweaking if it looks good. If I'm reading it correctly, attacking with multiple non-Humans triggers it multiple times, which means that I could attack with a pile of tokens and cheat out a pile of Humans. Admittedly, most of them will be 1/1s and 2/2s, but granting indestructible means I don't really care if they get blocked. Probably still better in a more beatdown-focused build, but card advantage in Boros is card advantage in Boros.

Unpredictable Cyclone - this card looks fair and reasonable and will not break anything ever alongside New Horizons. Cheating things out is never, ever broken. /s

Splendid Ultimatum - well, it's not the strongest ultimatum in the new cycle, but it still looks pretty solid. Roughly comparable to Cruel Ultimatum - you trade in the sacrifice/recursion/discard for a bit more card draw. I've heard some things about it being mis-translated, so reserving full judgment, but I still expect it to see some play. Seems pretty potent as a finisher in Standard, at least.

Slithering Wisp - a payoff for Flash tribal? I imagine the Wydwen, the Biting Gale players are happy.

Whirlwind of Thought - do thing, draw cards. Somewhat interesting to compare to Jeskai Ascendancy - upgrade looting to straight draw, at the cost of not pumping or untapping your team. I suppose an alternate comparison is Guardian Project. Either way, seems good.

I'm also going to call out Skycat Sovereign as Pride of the Clouds v2.0.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Stapler wrote:
1 year ago
Kinnan is making my Akiri/Thrasios manarock tribal deck go 👀👀👀
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
The thing I dislike about it is you can't really interact with it if they set it up by doing the mystical tutor first, then casting the enchantment, then cycling -- the trigger goes right on.
If you mean you can't mill the top card or make them shuffle in response, that's incorrect. Cycling is an activated ability that can be responded to like any other. The Cyclone is replacing the draw, but the draw doesn't happen until the ability resolves. When your opponent cycles their Akroma's Vengeance or whatever, you will have the opportunity to Stifle the cycling ability or Field of Ruin them etc. before the draw replacement happens.

No, I mean you never get priority to remove the enchantment at a time that stops it.

This set is kinda vomiting wins-on-the-stack which I don't care for.

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Stapler
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Post by Stapler » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
No, I mean you never get priority to remove the enchantment at a time that stops it.
Well no, you do have priority to kill the enchantment. They Tutor, they Cyclone, they cycle - in response to the cycle, you kill the enchantment, no free spell for them. Granted, a second cycle would get you if you don't have a second kill spell, but :shrug:
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Kinnan sequence:
- Turn 1: Land, 1-mana dork.
- Turn 2: Land, Kinnan, tap dork to cast another dork or rock
- Turn 3: Six mana available even if you miss your land drop - and a mana rock that enters untapped is either "free" or net positive to chain off.
I texted something along these lines to my good friend who I cube and play commander with. He prefers simic/bant/sultai

Me - turn 1: land
You - turn 1: land, dork
Me - turn 2: land
You - turn2: land, Kinnan, Sol Ring, Signet, dork
Me - . . . I scoop
You - turn 3: hoof
Me - . . . I already scooped
You - turn 4: multiple eldrazi

Kinnan's dumb.
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Stapler wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
No, I mean you never get priority to remove the enchantment at a time that stops it.
Well no, you do have priority to kill the enchantment. They Tutor, they Cyclone, they cycle - in response to the cycle, you kill the enchantment, no free spell for them. Granted, a second cycle would get you if you don't have a second kill spell, but :shrug:
I think Pokken might be reading this wrong: Cylone doesn't have a trigger. It has a replacement effect so you absolutely can do what Stapler is suggesting since the draw is only replaced if the Cyclone is still around when the draw occurs. You don't have to worry about a trigger being on the stack that can't be interacted with.

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

And the leak was right - rare tri-type cycling lands. Meet Savai Triome, Raugrin Triome, Zagoth Triome, Ketria Triome, and Indatha Triome.

One the one hand - these are great upgrades to Frontier Bivouac et al for Wedge decks and 4 or 5-color decks. Having fetchlands and Farseek be capable of hitting three colors is a huge deal and a huge power boost to the most historically neglected color combinations in Commander. Cycling 3 is a lot, but is still appreciated as a fallback plan for when we draw these super late (and as always for the sick value with with Crucible, Loam, Reclamation, Sun Titan, and Excavator).

On the other hand - I hate, hate, hate that we didn't get the enemy-colored versions of the Amonkhet cycling lands. I hate that my beloved Frog Monster has to wait at least another 12 months, and probably more like 2-3 years, for his bicycle. I just wanna ride my bicycle, man. This is similarly very disappointing for Shard decks, which are still stuck with Seaside Citadel and are missing a cycling dual from perfection if they were also trying to abuse things.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
And the leak was right - rare tri-type cycling lands. Meet Savai Triome, Raugrin Triome, Zagoth Triome, Ketria Triome, and Indatha Triome.
Raugrin is an ugly name for a card I'm obligated to play.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
Stapler wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
No, I mean you never get priority to remove the enchantment at a time that stops it.
Well no, you do have priority to kill the enchantment. They Tutor, they Cyclone, they cycle - in response to the cycle, you kill the enchantment, no free spell for them. Granted, a second cycle would get you if you don't have a second kill spell, but :shrug:
I think Pokken might be reading this wrong: Cylone doesn't have a trigger. It has a replacement effect so you absolutely can do what Stapler is suggesting since the draw is only replaced if the Cyclone is still around when the draw occurs. You don't have to worry about a trigger being on the stack that can't be interacted with.
Very glad to be wrong here :) Your'e right it does look like a replacement effect. Not sure why I read it as 'whenever you cycle' vs. 'if you draw a card from cycling.' Thanks.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Triomes look solid. 3 mana to cycle is a bit steep - I wouldn't expect to cycle them that often. However, producing three colors and being fetchable is really nice. Green ones are particularly valuable, since there are so many forest fetchers (Wood Elves, etc). I am disappointed that they're at rare, but hopefully the 'enters tapped and thus is completely unplayable outside Standard' thing will keep prices down.

More disappointingly, they actually have a themed name, so we don't have to argue about what to call the cycle! Odds of getting called 'tricycles': low.

I'll echo @Hawk in also being disappointed that we're not finishing up the enemy-colored cycling lands. Partially because I like to see cycles completed (and the number of ally-colored cycles continues to vastly outnumber the number of enemy-colored cycles), but primarily because I have significantly more decks that want them.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

The new tricycle lands... ack, that's a little much. In the past more colors per deck means you're trading consistency with extra options in gameplay, now that mana fixing comes so easily, multi-color decks are achieving consistency on par with a mono-color deck. Not wise.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Triomes are dope. Keep printing B-tier lands, WotC. You're doing God's work.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

The triomes are cool but not printing enemy bicycle lands was a horrible dropped ball.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
And the leak was right - rare tri-type cycling lands. Meet Savai Triome, Raugrin Triome, Zagoth Triome, Ketria Triome, and Indatha Triome.

One the one hand - these are great upgrades to Frontier Bivouac et al for Wedge decks and 4 or 5-color decks. Having fetchlands and Farseek be capable of hitting three colors is a huge deal and a huge power boost to the most historically neglected color combinations in Commander. Cycling 3 is a lot, but is still appreciated as a fallback plan for when we draw these super late (and as always for the sick value with with Crucible, Loam, Reclamation, Sun Titan, and Excavator).

On the other hand - I hate, hate, hate that we didn't get the enemy-colored versions of the Amonkhet cycling lands. I hate that my beloved Frog Monster has to wait at least another 12 months, and probably more like 2-3 years, for his bicycle. I just wanna ride my bicycle, man. This is similarly very disappointing for Shard decks, which are still stuck with Seaside Citadel and are missing a cycling dual from perfection if they were also trying to abuse things.
At least for Shards, they can console themselves with having access to one more cycling dual than wedges, since they get 2 allies and wedges only get 1.

I can understand putting these in over enemy colored bicycle lands, though. It's a matter of "where else can we put these", because they require both Cycling, a wedge theme, and a standard enviroment where they want slow but comprehensive fixing. Enemy Bicycle lands really just need cycling in the set, by contrast. So this is somewhat of a spot where this is their one chance to do these lands (evidenced by them not bothering to give them generic names), while they can catch enemy color bicycle lands in a couple years.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Ohhhh man I am excited for fetchable wedge lands. It just drives me a little crazy that they don't finish these cycles off. "shakes hand at only having 2 cycles of enemy fetchable duals".
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't know who looked at these and was like...these better cost 3 to cycle or they'll break magic.
To be fair, I am guessing this was more about aesthetics than power level. Though it could have been a little about the latter. 3 land types; {3} to cycle. To mirror the bicycle lands.

Though, as you said earlier, why couldn't they just give us the Enemy bicyle lands :(

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
The grammar's a little weird, but that's what they were saying: That it's a good thing it's a cost, otherwise people would combo the two.
Lol, either it got edited between when I read it and pressed "quote"...or I'm just tired and stupid.

In my defense it is 4am. Please spoil the azorius partner so I can sleep wotc.
Yeah the of was supposed to be an or. Small typo muddled the message.

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